masuwerte said:
Certainly Mary COULD have been assumed bodily into heaven, and at the least she is in heaven as a saint. All generations shall call her blessed. I'm trying to keep an open mind about the Church's Mariology.
And yes, I believe that the Church, inspired as it is by the Holy Ghost, is composed of fallible human beings and capable of making a mistake.
So I'm still exploring my conscience, to see if I can be part of the Church or not.
It is good you are doing this.
We don't just blindly accept the teaching of the Church . . there must be an inner conviction that the Church is right . .
Now . . I am going to get fairly direct with what I am going to say next:
But above that, there is a higher level of conviction . . that the Church cannot err in matter of faith and morals . . for if it can, then, and here I am going to be very bold, you can trust nothing of Chrsitianity . . not one thing . .
For it is the Church who wrote the New Testament, and gave you the bible choosing between what was scripture and what was not . .
If the Church can err in matters of faith and morals, then it could have erred in the writing of the New Testament, and in the colleciting of the canonical books . .
If the Church can err in matters of faith and morals, how do you know that what you have in your hand called the bible is really the inspired scriptures?
How do you know the Gospel of Thomas shouldn't be there? How do you know the letter of James should be there? How do you know Acts is accurate and inspired?
How do you know that the Church did not err when She put the scriptures together?
How do you know the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed true? How do you know the Church did not err when it declared it?
How do you know that Jesus really rose from the dead? Perhaps this is a myth and the Church erred in believing in it?
If the Church, made up of individuals, however fallible, can err collectively when teaching on matters of faith and morals, How do you know anything that you believe is in fact true?
We can then have no assurance that the Christian faith is indeed true .
Unless . . . .. there is an
infallible teacher . .
If there is no infallible teacher, then there is no Christianity . .
For then, we can have no idea if what we believe is even true . .
Do you see the delima?
Protestant Chrsitianity is based on certain
assumptions . . certain assumptions they cannot prove true without admitting that the Catholic Church is an infallible teacher . . for the Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church and received its teachings directly from the Apostles.
If the Church can err now, then one has to admit that the Church carrying forward apostolic teaching could have also erred . . right from the beginning.
Do you think that the Church would have canonized scripture that did not support what the Church taught and believed as true?
So if the Church can err, and thus could have erred then, what assurance do you have?
But now look at it in this light . .
Jesus made certain promises . .
He promised to build the Church on Peter . .
He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.
He promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church, through the Apostles into
ALL TRUTH.
Through Paul the Holy Spirit has firmly declared that the Church is the
Pillar and Foundation of
the Truth.
If the Church was
NOT led into all truth through the Aposltes . . then Christ liled . . .
If the Church
WAS led into all truth,
but then later erred in its teachings, the Christ also lied, for the Gates of Hell would have then prevailed against the Church . .
Satan is a liar and the father of lies . . error is a lie, a falsehood is diametrially opposed to what is true . .
Follow me a little further in this line of reasoning:
If the Church has erred, then the Church has believed and taught a lie . . .
If the Church has believed and taught a lie, then it is no longer the
Pillar and Foundation of the Truth and the bible is false.
IF the Church is not longer the Pillar and Foundation of the truth, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church, bringing its lies and falsehood into the Church.
If the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church then Jesus lied, Chrsitianity is a sham, and we are most to be pitied . .
Let's take it a little further . .
If the Church CAN err . . then it has ceased to be the pillar and foundation of the truth . . .
Let me ask you this. ..
How can the pillar and foundation of the truth err?
IF the bible is true, then the Church, founded by Christ and His apostles, IS the Pillar and Foundation of the truth . .
That Church was founded on Peter . . .
That Church was at the beginning, and has continued to be for 2000 years, the Catholic Church . . .
The Catholic Church continues to be built on Peter . . continues to be the Pillar and Foundation of truth . . .
If not, then Hell has won . . . .
Do you see the delima you have presented to yourself if you believe the Church can err?
If the Church can err, then the scriptures are false . . and Christ's promises are false . .
It gets really basic here . .
This is really where the tire meets the road . .
Can you trust what the scriptures say?
That the Church is the
Pillar and Foundation of the truth?
That the Holy Spirit led the Apostles, and thus the Church into
ALL TRUTH. . (which by nature excludes error) ?
Do you believe that the Gates of Hell will
NEVER prevail against the Church?
If so . . then you can
trust that in all matters of faith and morals the Church has not now erred or has ever erred in its teachings or ever will err . . you can approach this all with a simple childlike faith and by faith believe what the mind has not yet understood or even fully accepted.
Can you assent to the fact that it is the Church's teaching that Mary was assumed into heaven?
Just finding it hard to believe does not put you in a position of rejecting the Church . ..
There are different levels of rejection of the truth and thus of the Church . . these are found in the
CCC 2089
There is first
Incredulity . . this is a neglect of revealed truth or the
willful refusal to believe . .
This is very important to understand. You are not separated from the Catholic Church because you don't understanding something or find it hard to believe . . otherwise the Catholic Church would loose most of its members overnight.
The quesiton here is
a matter of will . . .
Are you willing to believe that Mary was assumed into heaven if it is indeed true?
From what you have said above, I believe you are!
Your inabliity to believe right now
does not separate you from full communion with the Catholic Church . ..
You have not
willfully refused to believe it . .
Do you see this?
You are not a heretic . . Heresy is the
OBSTINATE refusal to believe. .
You are having problem with a doctrine .. but you are trying to understand it and are willing to give full assent of mind and will if indeed true . . this is
NOT obstinate refusal to believe!!
There is nothing in your difficulties that separates you from full communion with the Church.
Notice the word
Obstinate again . . . this means over a long periood of time . . you came into the Church and a short while later were confronted with this . . that was not a long period of time
I don't know who told you what you were told and how that was conveyed to you . . . but I am concerned that this was not conveyed properly.
The question is . . . are you
WILLFULLY or OBSTINATELY refusing to believe this is true?
If you are not,
then you have not rejected this teaching . . having difficulty is a human experience . . The Church does not penalize you for this or say you are less a Catholic for this.
If I can at all encourage you, please return to the Church and receive the Sacraments . .. in so doing you allow great Grace to be infused into your life and this in turn gives Grace for understanding and faith . ..
Do not separate yourself like this . . . you were not lied to or deceived regarding what the Church teaches . . something may have been neglected, but the fact that you were not able to come to a complete assent to this doctrine before coming into the Church really does not represent the problem it seems to you right now to represent. . .
I think this requirement for belief and what it means and does not mean was not fully explained to you . . The responsibility for this does not lie with you, but with those teaching and insructing you.
The Assumption of Mary, while dogma, is not a core dogma like the Eucharist.
We just came into the Church this last Easter . . while I spent 3 years throughly investigating the Cahtolic faith, my husband had not . . and he has difficulty with the CORE DOGMA of the Eucharist and the Real Presence. . .
Our priest has been very good in assuring him that this does not present a problem, for my husband is desiring to understand and believe fully . . Just as you are . .
If my husband can be in right standing and full communion with the Church having difficulty over the Eucharist, you most certainly can be with the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary . .
Do you see this?
Do not accept the judgemental nature of others . .
You cannot dissent from the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary . .for that would be willful . . . you can say, I don't know if I can believe it fully right now . . I acknowledge that it could be so, and I am willing to let God lead me into a full understanding of this doctrine and be in full communion with the Church.
It is a matter of the heart . . not a matter of the mind . .
God does not penalize you if you have trouble accepting something . . He says Come unto me . .
Have you spoken at length with your priest about this? I mean more than just a brief conversation?
What did he have to say?
If you have not done so yet, may I encourage you with all my heart to do so!
Do not let this fairly small matter (and really it is fairly small in the larger scheme of things) prevent you from receiving all you can from the Church . . Grace abounds within the Church . . Divine Sanctifying Grace
Do not keep yourself form it any longer than necessary!
Peace in Him!
But I love this board for answers!
