Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

[Mediate]

Not sinning was never about 'doing it for a place in heaven', or 'doing it cause God says so'.

God WANTS us to understand why sins are silly.

Trivial things that man does not need.

It is because we are made better than that! It is because, good work and good life and good action are what build good life and good work and good action.

I realised this statement to be true;

It is better to abstain from sin with the perception that 'good work is beneficial for others', than with the perception that bad work leads to punishment.

The son who gets hit by his father every time he does something wrong.

He will stop doing what is wrong when the father's around. But he wont when he's not. And furthermore, the son will only fear punishment, never truly 'learn' anything from that. He will abstain because he fears being hit.

Against;

The son whose father shows him why things are wrong. Yet even when he does them, loves the son. The prodigal son who returns and his father says 'I am glad to see you again. HEre, I am sacrificing my PRIZE LAMB for you'.

'Oh wow dad. I really don't deserve this'.

The son will (only through true realization ie. Being in the wilderness, then 'entering TURMOIL, or 'flame') forever respect his father. Forever have deep love, and be able to change out of joy and love and peace, rather than fear.

His brother 'Christians in general', who believed themselves to be adherent (though sometimes grumpy) workers, will be jealous, saying 'but why does he get your prize lamb too?'

And the dad will say 'But you've been here all along!! Look around you! How many lambs have we eaten together? Don't be jealous! MY sheep has returned to me!'

BUt it took the prodigal son to have his realization before he returned.

This life is just a model for the next.

Time for man to learn why sin ISNT important. To learn pain. And turmoil.

So that when God takes it away, and our curse of disobedience is lifted, we can say 'My, you were right all along, Dad. I just didn't realise it'.

Nobody will WANT to sin anymore.

 

[Mediate]

The prodigal son comes to the father after all that sinning and disregard. All that 'no thanks dad, I'm off'. The son is only there bedcause the wilderness was too tough. In a way, he's taking advantage of his father. Yet he is also sorry. regretful.

Yet the dad doesn't hear any of it. He knows. He just says 'son, welcome home'.

It offends people because they believe that they deserve it more than their brother who 'squandered his treasure' and 'spent money on prostitutes', but we're all the father's children at the end of the day.

 

[Mediate]

All the teachings of 'hell' (actually 'gehenna' and 'hades') are directed as teaching to followers of Jesus who genuinely wish to live pure lives. To not have to enter the cleansing fire out of reverence for God. 'They'll (pharisees, abominators) go to the lake of fire'. A way of saying 'you know better. Don't be like THEM'.

It's like saying to disciples 'God shouldn't have to take the time, guys. You're better than that. Don't be in danger of hellfire. Don't do silly things. You know they do you no good. You understand better than that'.

But for the 'gentiles' and the sinners, the teachings command us to show love rather than judgement.

Think of throwing stones like this;

If every person's body/mind are temples, and someone brings a woman into their temple and commits adultery in it (mentally/in their 'heart') we do not know, but God knows, so he may judge that. If they do it physically, we may or may not know. But if we do, then when we throw stones at their temple, don't the walls become broken and cracked? And yet we ourselves have committed such things before!!

When too many stones of judgement are thrown (as in, human judgement), stones thenm become bricks, and before long, doesn't the temple become a ruin?

And because we do not for sure know what goes on inside the temple of the mind, then how can we be even sure that our stones are being cast righteously?

So then it is better that we do not judge. BUT if someone WANTS to change, and INVITES US into their temple, that we enter with respect and tread cautiously. At any time they may throw us out (shut their doors. Close their ears).

This is the challenge for us.

It is not about 'saving everyone in haste', it's about showing the love that God shows to us.

God has given us in all his wisdom, a part of that. We need respect it.

Patience friends.

 

[Mediate]

usually people use salvation as 'saved from hell'.

Yet it is more like 'God, I don't understand this world. Why is it like this? Why the pain? Why the hurt? Why all that?'

And when we 'find the spirit', then we realise 'Ahhh .. what freedom. The reason is here, within me and them and you! We were removed from your house, because iniquity was found in us! Then let us (those who have 'realized') honour you and learn our lesson! Freedom! You ARE a just God! You ARE merciful! Your WILL be done!'

Once you 'realize', you cannot 'unrealize'.

Realization!

Salvation!

 

[Mediate]

So the saying goes 'If I (Jesus) were to judge, then my judgement would be righteous'.

Yet 'I judge no man'.

Mercy and judgement go hand in hand for the father. But often not for us. We do not properly know the role of 'Lord', so we must be careful not to become it too highly.

Hence we are 'wives to God'. (humbled, perhaps even emasculated a little).

*leads on to marriage and why it's important in God's eyes*

Just kidding, I think that's enough for anyone to read already lol.

 

[TasManOfGod]

There is something fundamentally wrong with the doctrine which states that everybody is going to hell for eternity unless they hear about Jesus and accept him. I don't think Universalism is the answer -- but there has to be something somewhere in between the two!

The idea of Jesus dying for our sins used to be one of ultimate sacrifice; where God the Father gave His all to ransom the human race. But if all go to hell unless they hear about it, then God's ultimate sacrifice isn't that impressive anymore. Not for the generations of people who had to wait thousands of years before the Gospel was preached to them!

Think about it. How would you feel if you just heard about Jesus for the first time when white men came to your village, and you realized that every one of your ancestors for the past thousands of years are now burning in hell forever? That because "God's Free Gift" was first given to someone else on the other side of the planet, your people were condemned to suffer forever and ever and ever?

Suddenly "God's Ultimate Sacrifice" seems petty and insufficient. It falls way short of what the people on this planet needed. If indeed all people are condemned to the fires of hell (through no fault of our own, we were born into sin), then one would think that God should have come up with a better plan then to sit back and wait to see if the people He had entrusted with the Gospel message would actually take it around the world. God becomes an apathetic individual who did the bare minimum to save a few of His favorite friends in Palestine, while leaving the rest of the world to rot in hell.


Like I say, something is wrong with the doctrine. This is not the God I know, nor the one the scriptures talk about in the Bible. Somebody really messed things up when they formulated that doctrine!

I believe you are exactly right here. I do have an answer for you but I dont like mentioning it while wearing WoF colours who would not agree

 

[Alive_Again]

The idea of Jesus dying for our sins used to be one of ultimate sacrifice; where God the Father gave His all to ransom the human race. But if all go to hell unless they hear about it, then God's ultimate sacrifice isn't that impressive anymore

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:4

We know that all men will not be saved, but it is God's will that they would be saved.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16

The Word says that he that believeth not shall be damned. It does not say, "He who has not heard".

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Romans 10:13-15

So how can they believe if they have not heard? Will they be condemned for not believing if they have not heard? It does not say this.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matt 24:14

I would think by this description, if everyone had heard the good news, the end would have come. How would you hold someone accountable to believe if they have not heard? This would seem to point to a separate judgment for those who could not believe because of lack of opportunity.

All men before Christ who perished (even before the Law), went to either Paradise (in Hades), or to the suffering part. They were all "sons of Adam" whether they were of the nation of Israel or not. If they walked according to the "light" that they had and believed God, God held them in a place where He could preach the good news to them. I would assume all accepted Him when after Jesus' death, He went to the spirits of those in "prison" who were sometimes disobedient.

Jesus took the keys to that place and all who believed were sent to Heaven.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
John 15:22

The gospel of Jesus brings accountability. When you hear it, you're accountable to believe in it. Fortunately, God strives with us and in most of our countries, we have good opportunity to hear it again and again (making us even more accountable). If you hear and reject the gospel, you will be damned. Those are Jesus' Words. You might personally take issue (as in the case of the OP) with the extent of this rejection by God and judgment, but that is what it will be.

So the question remains regarding what happens to those who do NOT hear the gospel and die.

This is pure speculation, but if we look at the Word, it would appear that those Gentiles without knowledge of the "Law" or gospel, have a form of the law within themselves whereby they live (as do'ers of that law) or not. Paul says in the New Testament, that this conscience accuses or excuses. God will judge the intents of the heart based on this. Is this just so one can be more "guilty" than the rest? I would think that it would either clear you or convict you.

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 2:13-16

Everyone should be able to tell through nature that God exists. They are called to glorify Him and be thankful.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:20-21

My personal belief, is that those who do not have opportunity to hear the gospel and do not reject it, will be judged according to the conscience God forms within each person. God is a just judge. I have heard prophetic words where the Lord said that He would visit those in other religions. They might have spent their whole life in a form of vanity (with wrong beliefs), but God will show mercy to them by allowing them to "hear" and receive. This would no doubt be people who endeavored to walk in love according to the conscience God formed within them.

When the gospel finally went forth to the Gentiles, it was impossible to reach them all immediately. If it is God's will for all men to be saved, then it would seem to make sense that He would judge them based on their adherence to their conscience, including them giving glory to God, thankful for His influence and blessing on their lives. This seems very much in keeping with what a reasonable judge would do.

I do believe though if a person had an opportunity to hear the gospel, and they reject that, that they will be accountable for that. Everyone in America has an opportunity to hear the gospel. I would wager that God would see to it by His angels, that everyone would be moved to consider it and believe.

 

[Yahu]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

If not, what are the options?

(I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but please lets not discuss the existence of hell in this thread - thank you).

Mike

First off if you take scripture as valid, how can there be no hell? That is ridiculous. Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna are mentioned many times in scripture.

Hell is the term we use for the abode of spirits that are outside of the realm of the creator. It is NOT the term used for eternal judgement. The 'lake of fire' is NOT hell. Hell gets cast into the lake of fire. That is the eternal place of judgement. Hell is just a temporary abode of spirits of the dead.

Now the term Gehenna for example is just the Greek for the 'valley of hinnom'. That valley was the place where the children were passed through the fires to Molech and offered as sacrifices. When that paganism was final wiped out, that valley became the local trash dump for the city of Jerusalem while the grove and temple of Baal above it got turned into a public toilet with the sewage runoff emptying into the valley of Hinnom. It was used as a symbol of hell and the worship of Molech is equated to debasing thyself unto Sheol. That valley was the location of the burning fires of the trash. It became a symbol, a biblical type representing hell.

 

[Breckmin]

There is something called the Logical Fallacy of Christian Universalism. I don't know if I am allowed to provide a link to another forum or if this is against CF rules.

You can find the thread at Narrow path ministries under "Radio Program Topics."

look at page 6 of all the posts and also page 8 and you will see clearly what this argument is about. Universalism is deception - and also heresy - and it is important that we pray for those Christians who have fallen prey to it.

 

[Mediate]

First off if you take scripture as valid, how can there be no hell? That is ridiculous. Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna are mentioned many times in scripture.

Hell is the term we use for the abode of spirits that are outside of the realm of the creator. It is NOT the term used for eternal judgement. The 'lake of fire' is NOT hell. Hell gets cast into the lake of fire. That is the eternal place of judgement. Hell is just a temporary abode of spirits of the dead.

Now the term Gehenna for example is just the Greek for the 'valley of hinnom'. That valley was the place where the children were passed through the fires to Molech and offered as sacrifices. When that paganism was final wiped out, that valley became the local trash dump for the city of Jerusalem while the grove and temple of Baal above it got turned into a public toilet with the sewage runoff emptying into the valley of Hinnom. It was used as a symbol of hell and the worship of Molech is equated to debasing thyself unto Sheol. That valley was the location of the burning fires of the trash. It became a symbol, a biblical type representing hell.

Then you understand the concept quite correctly.

The issue that many people who believe in total reconciliation (such as myself) have with 'Hell', is that most people don't actually understand that the term 'hel'l (particularly the type of which Jesus spoke) comes from the apt and seemingly timely concept of 'gehenna', which is a place outside Jerusalem (also called 'the kingdom of Heaven') where people were 'purified', not 'tortured forever in flames'.

Shoel is 'hades' where the place of the dead is, where Jesus 'preached for three days'.

And the great judgement is like that of God exercising his righteous and merciful judgement as 'a refiner of gold and silver'.

Each deed shall be shown according to it's worth. and each sin revisited.

I do not dispute one word of the bible, I dispute the way in which it is commonly applied by the majority of Christian believers; with misunderstanding and haste. Jesus indeed did die for ALL to be saved. And he 'does the will of the father', and 'all judgement is handed to the son'.

He died so that we need not be sacrificed of our physical, living lives, in payment for our sins.

But we also must then become perfected, or 'made unto higher things by way of fire'.

'For God cannot look upon sin'.

So we look upon our own with God-sight. In the everlasting fashion. With total comprehensiveness, in the end.

So that God's irrevocable decree comes true. Every knee bows and every tongue confesses.

 

[Yahu]

Then you understand the concept quite correctly.

The issue that many people who believe in total reconciliation (such as myself) have with 'Hell', is that most people don't actually understand that the term 'hel'l (particularly the type of which Jesus spoke) comes from the apt and seemingly timely concept of 'gehenna', which is a place outside Jerusalem (also called 'the kingdom of Heaven') where people were 'purified', not 'tortured forever in flames'.

Shoel is 'hades' where the place of the dead is, where Jesus 'preached for three days'.

And the great judgement is like that of God exercising his righteous and merciful judgement as 'a refiner of gold and silver'.

Each deed shall be shown according to it's worth. and each sin revisited.

I do not dispute one word of the bible, I dispute the way in which it is commonly applied by the majority of Christian believers; with misunderstanding and haste. Jesus indeed did die for ALL to be saved. And he 'does the will of the father', and 'all judgement is handed to the son'.

He died so that we need not be sacrificed of our physical, living lives, in payment for our sins.

But we also must then become perfected, or 'made unto higher things by way of fire'.

'For God cannot look upon sin'.

So we look upon our own with God-sight. In the everlasting fashion. With total comprehensiveness, in the end.

So that God's irrevocable decree comes true. Every knee bows and every tongue confesses.

But that doesn't mean that every individual is saved. Hell is not purgatory. Those that serve the enemy in that realm will join in with his final destination. Will all in Sheol/Hades end up in the lake of fire, that is debated. Could some righteous individual have stayed behind instead of following Yeshua out of that realm and be waiting for the final white throne judgement instead? It is possible. It requires an understanding of the divine counsel and its makeup.

But that doesn't imply universalism. We KNOW the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. They won't be the only ones and I will be cheering on some of them. You have no idea of the extent of conflicts I had with one of the major principalities.

Now will some be resurrected, stand judgement yet not be granted eternal life and die a 2nd death but not be into the lake of fire and spend the rest of eternity as a spirit? That is also debatable. Some even believe they will just be destroyed instead of eternal suffering. We don't have full understand at this point. We don't need it.

Now the suffering in hell/hades/sheol that goes on now is not the eternal torment. It is conducted by the enemy that rules that realm. And the concept that they are being purified by that is straight out of the ancient paganism.

 

[rachelgeo]

I always wondered about that, and the following book gave me insight on the history of the gifts. I found it very helpful, as it did not try to convince me of something, rather, it presented the facts and allowed me to make my own decision on what I should believe regarding gifts.

http://amzn.to/16HWQEn

 

[brotheryochanan]

There is no hell, sheol is the grave and ghenna is a place where things are destroyed. John 3:16.. perish, kjv, defined by strongs and other lexicons means to be utterly destroyed.
If there were a universalism then all is in vain. God would not have instituted the mosaic sacrifices if there were no need to atone for sin. Even those who sinned UNintentionally had to sacrifice for atonement.
We are talking about eternal life with God - no one squeaks through without paying the price of admission - recognizing Jesus as the door, repenting of sins and living a holy life (as much as is possible).

 

[Alive_Again]

There most surely is a Hell and the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have been talking about it for many, many, years. We are supposed to warn others to flee the wrath to come, coming to the children of disobedience. some punishments will be far worse than others. If everyone burns up in a quick destructive fire, how is that worse than other punishment?

It's not a one time thing. It's a reward and it goes on for ever and ever, just as the rewards of eternal life. The Lord has been very serious about warning His people to repent and to tell others to repent. It's very serious.

It is supposed to inspire a godly fear and a certain knowledge that abiding in sin will have dreadful consequences if unrepented of.

Many have been burning for a very long time. Some were burning in Jesus' day and others will have been burning for thousands of years. The devils torment and enjoy it, but their day will come to. Why would humans be punished worse than the devils who cause His beloved creation to stray? Satan will be in a bottomless pit for a thousand years (all the while people are burning in torment). At the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll all be gathered together for a final judgment and a consignment to a lake to a lake of fire. Here is where Satan finally gets his real punishment.

Why would Satan have it so easy compared to the people He made to take pleasure and fellowship with?

They won't be getting out either. The same words used to describe the punishment are the ones used to describe God's nature, power, and kingdom.

 

[brotheryochanan]

some punishments will be far worse than others. If everyone burns up in a quick destructive fire, how is that worse than other punishment?

God is not about punishing he is about getting his people into everlasting life and the rest do not get everlasting life. Eternal punishment = a one time judgment then destruction. Eternal - lasts forever, punishment not punishing. What has God to gain by keeping or sending people to hell to be tortured eternally? God is love, destruction is tough love. Eternal punishment via hell is human want for retribution and is not of God.

It is supposed to inspire a godly fear and a certain knowledge that abiding in sin will have dreadful consequences if unrepented of.

God is not about instilling fear in His people. Thou shalt love the lord thy God... how can you love someone you fear? Fear meaning respect, admiration, loyalty is OT dispensation, Jesus is love, God is love. Grace is love. A dreadful consequence of sin is death, a second death one that separates from God eternally by destruction.

Many have been burning for a very long time. Some were burning in Jesus' day and others will have been burning for thousands of years.

This is blatantly non scriptural.
Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens": If david hasn't no one has.
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". Is jesus lying?
IF people were already in heaven or even hell then they would have to have been already judged and no need for a judgment day, but we sleep until the time of judgment awaiting a resurrection upon which times judgment will then occur.


The devils torment and enjoy it, but their day will come to. Why would humans be punished worse than the devils who cause His beloved creation to stray?

Why would God allow devils to cause his people to stray?

Satan will be in a bottomless pit for a thousand years (all the while people are burning in torment).

You take revelations much to literally. Where is this bottomless pit that the smoke darkens our air and blots our sun? Clearly visions that are pictorial representations being metaphors are not understood by you.

At the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll all be gathered together for a final judgment and a consignment to a lake to a lake of fire. Here is where Satan finally gets his real punishment.

Death and hell, rev 20:14 are cast into the lake of fire.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Why would Satan have it so easy compared to the people He made to take pleasure and fellowship with?

And why would God allow Satan to take people? The entity you call satan is something that christedom has inherited from the babylonian/persian influence during their exile. Its a form of the zoroastrian, a 2 god religion - a good God and a bad god.
You should do a study on personalization in the bible you will see that many things are personalized which are not people. A notable personalization is:
Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom cries without; she utters her voice in the streets:

They won't be getting out either. The same words used to describe the punishment are the ones used to describe God's nature, power, and kingdom.

John 3:16.. last word perish means utterly destroy. So shall we read this verse as God so loved the world that everyone should be suffering eternally in hell?

 

[Alive_Again]

God is not about punishing he is about getting his people into everlasting life and the rest do not get everlasting life.

Since (by comparison) few will be saved and the rest into eternal fire, I'd say that His nature demands punishment for evildoers, and good rewards and life for those who obey Him.

Eternal punishment = a one time judgment then destruction. Eternal - lasts forever, punishment not punishing.

Eternal<G165>"aion"

(Previously used in word study: translated as "for ever")

Noun (masculine)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times (KJV) &#8212; ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5

"Now unto the King eternal<G165>, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
1 Tim 1:17

"To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal<G165> purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"
Eph 3:10-11

God's Eternal Name & Attributes

...Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever. <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...and worshipped Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for <G1519>ever. <G165>Heb 13:8
...Him that sat on the throne, who liveth for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>Rev 4:9-11
...worship him that liveth for<G1519> ever<G165> and ever<G165>Rev 4:9-11
...Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 10:6
...God, who liveth for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 15:7

Destruction (Forever)

...the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 14:11
...her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 19:3
...the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.&#8221;2 Peter 2:17
...reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."Jude 1:13
...shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 20:10
...God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>,...and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." Psalms 52:4-5

What has God to gain by keeping or sending people to hell to be tortured eternally? God is love, destruction is tough love. Eternal punishment via hell is human want for retribution and is not of God.

It is supposed to inspire a godly fear and a certain knowledge that abiding in sin will have dreadful consequences if unrepented of.

God is not about instilling fear in His people. Thou shalt love the lord thy God... how can you love someone you fear? Fear meaning respect, admiration, loyalty is OT

An awesome, reverential fear is godly fear. A tormenting fruit of sin is what the wicked have. Jesus said to fear the One who has the power to cast into Hell. Define fear as you wish, but sinners are to fear this. Believers are to acknowledge and respect this.

Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens": If david hasn't no one has.

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:34-35

This is speaking of when he wrote it (thousands of years before Jesus). He wrote, "The Lord said unto my Lord", meaning, he wrote it, but was not seated on His right hand. Kind of like "How does David call Him Lord?"

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". Is jesus lying?

Of course not. The OT saints were in Hades, the Abraham's Bosom side, with the sinner's on the other side being tormented. Ever heard someone burning in fire maintain a conversation and ask questions? Of course not. This is because the fire does not consume. The flame does not go out.

Abraham was there and God is the God of the living, not the dead. He said "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God." There is a resurrection of the dead. They went to Hades awaiting Jesus' taking the keys of Hell, death, and the grave after His death. They're in Heaven right now. They're not sleeping.

I'm sure you've heard this many times, but really think about it. It's better to depart and be with Christ. Saints who are absent from the body are present with the Lord, not having their spirits and souls staying in the body (which rots btw).

IF people were already in heaven or even hell then they would have to have been already judged and no need for a judgment day, but we sleep until the time of judgment awaiting a resurrection upon which times judgment will then occur.

After Jesus cleared out Abraham's Bosom, they go to Heaven.The other's judgment has already been set and they are not getting out, except for the Great White Throne Judgment. Everyone in their body will be resurrected and this group punished.

Can you tell me what the point of burning them up if they're already with no consciousness? What's the point of giving them a few minutes of burning? It's because it's not a few minutes. It's also greater than the judgment that is already set for the wicked.

How are people like Hitler and Stalin (who killed millions) going to receive a worse punishment than your fallen neighbor? How are those receiving judgment for all of the slain prophets getting a worse treatment, if they're just going to be burned "up" (consumed)? How long does it take to burn a body before it dies? Less than a minute?

Why would God allow devils to cause his people to stray?

Ask Adam, son of God. Lucifer tempted the angels that fell. He (and his army) tempts others. It is given for them to have some ability to do this. His people have authority over devils, but this world is suffering greatly from Satanic/demonic inference. I myself have suffered greatly, and so have you. Satan will be in a bottomless pit for a thousand years (all the while people are burning in torment).

You take revelations much to literally. Where is this bottomless pit that the smoke darkens our air and blots our sun? Clearly visions that are pictorial representations being metaphors are not understood by you.

Why believe any of the rest if you're going to spiritualize what you choose to be true and untrue? Don't know where the bottomless pit is, and it doesn't matter.

And why would God allow Satan to take people? The entity you call satan is something that christedom has inherited from the babylonian/persian influence during their exile.

Here we go! The first charismatic meeting I ever went to (in gross darkness), the leader told any wicked spirits to leave and I felt something leap off of me (to my total surprise).

I fight them all of the time. If you don't they'll wreak havok on your life. I have witnessed them destroying lives and I have bound them and cast them out. The difference is immediate. It's not a Babylonian thing. Don't let anyone feed you that mess.

John 3:16.. last word perish means utterly destroy. So shall we read this verse as God so loved the world that everyone should be suffering eternally in hell?

He loved the world by sending His Son to die for it. The cost to them is to receive the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Those who reject this go to Hell and eventually the lake of fire.

 

[Alive_Again]

Eternal (redemption, salvation, glory, Spirit, life)
Also "everlasting" (judgment, punishment, chains)


Eternal<G166>"Aoonios" (adjective)

...having obtained eternal<G166> redemption for us Heb 9:12
...he became the author of eternal<G166> salvation unto all them that obey him Heb 5:9
...who hath called us unto his eternal<G166> glory by Christ Jesus 1 Peter 5:10
...the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal<G166> glory 2 Tim 2:10
...this is life eternal<G166>, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ John 17:3
...who through the eternal<G166> Spirit offered himself without spot to God Heb 9:14
...that eternal<G166>life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 1 John 1:2
...the gift of God is eternal life<G166> through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 6:23
...they which are called might receive the promise of eternal<G166> inheritance Heb 9:15
...thou hast the words of eternal<G166> life John 6:68
...seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal<G166> life Romans 2:7
...In hope of eternal<G166> life Titus 1:2
...And I give unto them eternal<G166> life; and they shall never perish John 10:28
...that I may have eternal<G166> life? Matt 19:16
...but the righteous into life eternal<G166> Matt 25:46
...and in the world to come eternal<G166> life. Mark 10:30-31
...whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal<G166> life John 3:15
...gathereth fruit unto life eternal<G166> John 4:36
...for in them ye think ye have eternal<G166> life John 5:39
...eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal<G166> life John 6:54

...he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal<G166> John 12:25
...as many as were ordained to eternal<G166> life believed Acts 13:48
...grace reign through righteousness unto eternal<G166> life by Jesus Christ Romans 5:21
...worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal<G166> weight of glory 2 Cor 4:17
...but the things which are not seen are eternal<G166> 2 Cor 4:18
...lay hold on eternal<G166> life, whereunto thou art also called 1 Tim 6:12
...that they may lay hold on eternal<G166> lif" 1 Tim 6:19
...we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal<G166> life Titus 3:7
...the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal<G166>life 1 John 2:25
...no murderer hath eternal<G166> life abiding in him 1 John 3:15
..God hath given to us eternal<G166> life, and this life is in his Son 1 John 5:11
...that ye may know that ye have eternal<G166> life 1 John 5:13
...his is the true God, and eternal<G166> life 1 John 5:20
...the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal<G166> life Jude 1:21

Eternal Judgment, Fire, Damnation

...these shall go away into everlasting<G166>punishment Matt 25:46
...is in danger of eternal<G166> damnation<G2920> Mark 3:30
...he hath reserved in everlasting<G166> chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day Jude 1:6
...suffering the vengeance of eternal<G166>fire Jude 1:7
...and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal<G166> judgment Heb 6:2

 

[brotheryochanan]

If you can't see destruction as an everlasting punishment and insist that E.P. is being tormented in flames then lets look at a few verses because you also said that God wants us to fear him, and i don't think God wants us to fear him, i think God wants to have a relationship with Him not based on fear but on love.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

God is LOVE. God judges humankind but does not torment them.

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, you are there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there.

So where is this hell going to be that God won't hear the screams and cries of those tormented forever and ever? I am sure this is something that God doesn't want to endure.

We still have a clash with John 3:16 and the definition of perish. If as you claim the fire does not consume the spirit entity or flesh entity (which one?) then this is not destruction as perish is clearly defined, this is torture which is not destruction. How can you possibly think that God even wants to torture people is beyond me, isn't destruction enough?
What do you do with matt 19:18- The young rich man? He lived by the law and did a good job of it yet he shall be tortured for all eternity? Where does the bible ever describe levels in hell? For that theory to be true you have received this doctrine from Dante's inferno and/or catholicism - and we know how godly catholicism is ) which is not in the bible or have you used some other pseudepigrapha book?
Jude misquotes from the book called 'the assumption of moses' and the 'book of enoch' (obviously not written by enoch) two pseudepigrapha books which upon reading are obviously not worthy of inclusion in the bible. Now if you want a little history about jude remember he was the brother of james and james ran a compromised church of people who are "zealous for the Law" of moses, Acts 21:20, which we know is contrary to the Law of the spirit of Christ.

I'll lay another bomb on you, Strongs concordance is catholic and contains catholic definitions, such as your hell being an underworld.. when the uncatholic and biblical definition is merely and only, the grave, a pit.

I have no problems with eternal and forever and ever (although there are examples of forever and ever not meaning forever and ever) but i have no problem with your quotes its just that you are inferring torment and that is what i have problems with.

If you want to mention jude then these entities that are in chains RESERVED until Judgment must be in chains still, so how do they bug us? My understanding is that christendom thinks these entities are fallen angels which are held in chains until judgment.

Lucifer as satan.. unsupported in the bible. It takes more than one scripture to create a doctrine unless you go outside the bible to complete this concept. Lucifer just means morning star.. Jesus is referred to as morning star which should alleviate the satan theory right there, but this word lucifer is a theologians suspect another word instead of venus which is a roman deity. The allegorical meaning is to compare the star as being outshone which symbolizes a short reign of the king of tyre.

Abrahams bosom.. is not a literal place. Jesus is in the bosom of the father.. and this sheds some light on being in abrahams bosom.. its means heart, it represents love. To be in abrahams bosom means to be in the love of abraham. Abraham is the father of israel. John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Abrahams bosom is a typology of Gods love.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

since no one has gone to be with the lord upon their absence from the body (death) this cannot speak of immediate going to heaven.
Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleeps. And they laughed him to scorn.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Apparently, we all sleep when we are dead. Did lazarus get ripped out of heaven?
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

 

[Alive_Again]

I'm into the goodness of God too.

People choke on the idea of eternal torment as though it is cruel.

As far as "natural" thinking, how hard is it to picture someone having a conversation while they are on fire, suffering torment. Usually someone burning last less than 10 seconds and there is no conversation, regret, or thoughts about their family being tormented in a "place".

If you're going down, why worry about loved ones going to a "place"?

People take isolated verses out of the Old Testament that speak of God's love following His faithful. It does not negate the lesson Jesus taught us about the righteous and the wicked.

The "everlasting burnings" and its smoke go up forever and ever. We can all avoid this by being faithful to God and it is no longer an issue. It is an issue for the world.

Yes, it would be bad to be "destroyed" by fire (in a few minutes), but to be held in everlasting torment, is a far greater deterrent.

Notice that the rich man and Lazarus went somewhere. They were not held in the ground. They went to their reward. Truly, everyone will be raised one day. The wicked to a worse punishment. Abraham is alive right now, as is the thief from the cross, and everyone else (He saw Jesus' day and rejoiced). You are an eternal being and you'll go to the place that you deserve to go to. Let's make it Heaven.

 

[brotheryochanan]

Lazarus is a resurrection parable. The dead in christ rise first as displayed by the saved being situated in abrahams bosom. The rich man, resurrected second, is sliding toward the lake of fire. The great gulf fixed conveys to us that upon death our destinations are fixed and there is no way to avoid it, what is done is done. The lake of fire is called the second DEATH. Death intimates destruction, not torture.
The thief on the cross is interesting and complicated. There is debate about the comma placement as there were no commas or periods in the greek text or the aramaic. You can go here Does anybody know about punctuation in Aramaic? - Yahoo! Answers to read on aramaic punctuation development.
"Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (kjb) or, And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise". G4594 has two interesting definitions for today, strongs concordance: 'this (very) day' or 'what has happened today'.
I vote for the latter. the first example of, 'Today you shall be with me in paradise' is impossible because christ went to the grave, he was buried for three days, which is certainly not paradise. He said after 3 days i will raise it up. The first example states that Jesus is 'saying today', or, because of what has happened today, as a promise of the future, the thief shall be in paradise, then after resurrection, because of what he said that day, the man will (eventually upon resurrection) be in paradise. We have to read the parables according to scriptural context which defines our understanding. Since no one, not abraham or david, as is plainly said by peter under influence of the holy ghost, has gone to heaven. Remember jesus cannot lie, he plainly said in no figurative speech that no one has gone to heaven and this would include abraham and david and all the others too, including enoch and elijah - i know that's up for debate but there is sufficient biblical evidence to support some other place on earth.

Back to the lazarus parable. The man sliding toward destruction was in torments as he recognized that God existed. Quite the shocker or if he did believe in God as is implied by his knowing abraham and calling him father, we can guess his state after realizing he didn't make the grade, he's not a part of eternal life. (which btw, eternal destruction is the opposite of eternal life, eternal torment implies eternal life.) You're right, for a man to be burning it would be near impossible to carry on a conversation, but if the man were in, shall we say, a high state of stressful anxiety brought on by recognition of his plight and what he is missing out on - surely a torment, I then wonder why he only asked for a drop of water to cool the tip of his tongue, and not a bucket when his whole being is burning in torments? Why even ask for water at all if the flames are spiritual flames and not physical flames? (one would think a spirit body would need spiritual flames to harm it as physical flames won't do that job.) We are told he only wants a drop of water to cool his tongue which aligns with a state of anxiety in which the throat tightens, the tongue becomes dry, its difficult but not impossible to speak.

I get doctrine from the OT. Much of our gentile interpretation of NT does not adhere to OT teachings, which is because of the translation from aramaic to greek and then to english, also, because of the shift in what the judahish people believed because of their time in exile and 400 yrs of silence and then to add hellenization to the equation. I have often wondered if my childrens, childrens or if i myself moved to england and lived there would eventually be celebrating Guy Fawkes day, this is called assimilation. NT must be read in the light of the OT because the OT biblically is referred to the "Holy Scriptures" in both OT and NT. Titus from a child knew the holy scriptures (2 tim 3:15). the NT was not around when titus was a child but the OT was. Titus had a jewish mother.

I don't think that to love God we need a deterrent. I doubt that God would intentionally put a deterrent like torment forever in front of people he loved so that they would love him. True love is given willingly and is given freely it is not ransomed or persuaded by threat. If i know that i am to be destroyed permanently then i can freely make a choice to love God. I can honestly ask myself without pressure, 'why do i need to love God?' Eternal torture takes away the choice by inducing fear. People don't mind destruction as much as they mind eternal torture. Choice is all about why we are here. To choose Him.

In matthew 13:19 and 13:38 the 'wicked one' is mentioned in both verses, but the king james has the word 'one' in italics. In the preface of my king james bible italic print is noted as: Italic type was used in the kjb and geneva bible, to indicate words in the english translation that have no representative in the original version. Meaning in the example i gave above, the word one is an added word. So the text then reads, 'then come the wicked and catch away the seed'... wicked being ungodly people and not an implied satan. It can't be the fallen angels either because they as jude says are being held in chains, kept, until the day of judgment, which hasn't happened yet.

Sorry for the lengthy reply and thanks for your comments.