Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

[MikeBigg]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

If not, what are the options?

(I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but please lets not discuss the existence of hell in this thread - thank you).

Mike

 

[Faulty]

I suppose annihilationism and reincarnation would be belief options as well, if one wanted to deny hell exists.

 

[MikeBigg]

Thanks, Faulty.

They are both post death. What about pre-death.

If there is no hell, would people still need to be saved?

 

[TasManOfGod]

I believe this question is answered through the examination of the heart of God as revealed by the OT prophets, Jesus, and from Revelation. I believe that ultimately the only souls that would not be in the presence of God (in some form) would be those who absolutely deny the existence of a divine creator.

 

[Alive_Again]

Jesus believed in Hell. Before He died there was a place in Hades that had both the righteous and the unrighteous dead. One suffered and the other did not. A certain man existed and died and went to Abraham's Bosom (the reward for righteousness at that time). Jesus Himself spoke of the reward of the rich man who closed his heart to the need of Lazarus. He wanted out! He was tormented in flames, yet he was not consumed. He wanted to warn his family desperately, because he did not want them to go there! He had a body (not a physical one) and it had a hand and fingers and a tongue. It could see and hear. He remembered his family on earth and he was aware of his plight. We are told why he went there and we can avoid the same fate by obeying God.

You really don't want to entertain options as to why what Jesus said might not be true. It is definitely true. But we don't have to go and it wasn't made for us. We do have to receive the Lord and walk in love (righteousness) by grace.

 

[MikeBigg]

Thanks for your replies, guys - it is appreciated.

I have been looking at the topic of hell and realised I had not studied to topic, but relied on what I understood of it from who knows where. I probably have some understanding about hell that doesn't come from bible sources.

Hence my looking at the topic and finding out what the Bible says about it - hence my rather off-the-wall question.

Mike

 

[Alive_Again]

Other options than what Jesus said. That is what you want to avoid.

There are many on the forum who would say that it is through some worldly traditions that we believe what we believe even about what Jesus said. No, it is just exactly as Jesus said. It was not a parable, it was a certain man that lived and died. It was given for our admonition, not to theorize. There is great danger in dismissing the words of Jesus. Those same people take what is written in Revelation and spiritualize that as well. The lake of fire is also real and is not symbolism.

Often those who want to explore Universalism do so because someone close to them died and they are not sure they went to Heaven. It is important to know that we can stand in the gap for our loved ones. They are looked up by the Lord somewhat different. Not because He prefers one over another, but because He gave a promise in His Word that our household or those dearest to us would be saved. So we cannot consign anyone to Hell. He can reach them again before they die.

A number of people who have gone to Heaven were surprised to see certain relatives there because of how they lived. Still, the Lord dealt with them and they repented before they went on to their reward. Stand strong in the gap for your loved ones.

 

[Faulty]

Thanks, Faulty.

They are both post death. What about pre-death.

If there is no hell, would people still need to be saved?

Being saved is not fire insurance. It is reconciliation to God. Even if there were no hell, but there is, there would be no reconciliation with God and the wrath of God would remain on them forever anyway.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)

 

[Alive_Again]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)

This verse really stresses the obedience factor.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Revelation can never be understood with a closed mind-set

 

[Alive_Again]

The Book of Revelation is like the rest of the Word in that it was written and spoke to the people of that time. It speaks to us in the here and now. It speaks of the future. It gives warnings and encouragement.

Even though it speaks in figurative language, there are some absolute realities in there that we cannot pick and choose in and out. Wile many are languishing in Hell right now, Satan is going to be judged and thrown in a lake of fire that really exists. His Hell will be worse than anyone elses. If we don't believe this, we "softsell" the punishment and warning all believers are meant to hear and give heed to.

Just to show you how hideous Universalism really is, it shows that Judas, Satan, Hitler, and other well known wicked doers will eventually be saved. Does anyone know where this lie came from?

Literally, every knee is going to bow to the Lordship of Jesus. The people of God will live forever and the people of darkness will "die" forever.

 

[Faulty]

This verse really stresses the obedience factor.

That's where you would need to be familiar enough with basic doctrine that works do not lead to salvation. It's a word that means a refusal to believe, and goes hand in hand with the first part if the verse where belief inherits eternal life.

 

[Alive_Again]

This verse really stresses the obedience factor.
​

That's where you would need to be familiar enough with basic doctrine that works do not lead to salvation. It's a word that means a refusal to believe, and goes hand in hand with the first part if the verse where belief inherits eternal life.

You forgot the verse...

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)

We don't get "in" by our works, but grace gave us the power to choose to walk in the light. We will be held accountable for that. It's not that God is waiting for a reason to deny us, but obviously if we do not repent we will have problems. If He deals with us about it and we steal don't repent, then we REALLY have problems. If over time we harden ourselves He might take us home (giving you the grace to repent first). He might turn you over to your idols, like so many. I've met so many and I was one myself. So many keep going and when they go home, they find their home is not what they thought it was. Workers of iniquity don't make it in.

Since we are going to be judged for our works (they don't save us, but they might disqualify us), our works are important. They are all done in the light and totally by grace, lest man should boast. You have the will to do the plan of God within you in your spirit, but your flesh has a will that is totally counter to God. If you choose to walk after it, you can go from having the problems described above, to God turning you over to your pleasures of sin for a season. Sometimes that season is long, and if you can't hear God anymore to convict you, then you'd better repent, because nothing defiled is going to get into Heaven and you can't live today on yesterday's repentance.

So obedience is REQUIRED to avoid the wrath of God, and He's not just talking about how to get in the door. We are to walk in love with all of our being. Our fruits will tell everyone how we're doing and God is not mocked. What we reap, we will sow. If we turn our back from the one in prison, the hospital, the poor, etc. as God puts before you, and you don't repent, you run the risk of Him telling you as you didn't do to the least of these, you didn't do to Him. We all know what the reward of those works are.

We also know Jesus said "Why do you call Me Lord if you don't do what I say?" It's all about grace-faith-grace-obedience. Any interruption requires repentance and then you demonstrate your love today, not yesterday.

This is all good news, btw, because you couldn't do this before Jesus died and rose for us.

 

[Tobias]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

If not, what are the options?

(I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but please lets not discuss the existence of hell in this thread - thank you).

Mike

Universalism is the belief that God will eventually forgive all those in hell, and they will make it to heaven in the end. Right?


If there is no hell and only a heaven, then nobody needs to do anything to be saved. If there is no hell and only the righteous make it to heaven, then what happens to everyone else? Annihilation? And then, how do we define righteousness that leads to entrance into heaven -- would it still be based upon Grace?


Here's my theory:

The Underworld is a realm that has a place of torment we know as hell, and Jesus spoke of as Gehenna and Peter called Tartarus. Not everyone who dies and goes down there ends up in active torment. There are also other parts of Hades that are more like Limbo and Purgatory; and people can still make it out of there because we have not yet had the final White Throne Judgement mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Heaven likewise has different parts. There is Paradise which is a nice place to be, and there is the city of Heaven with the throne room of God. We need to accept Christ and be obedient to God to live in His kingdom. But that does not mean that all those who do not know of Him or get the formula right in this life are doomed to eternal torment. The Bible does not say that! People simply have jumped to that conclusion because all we read about is the reward for the faithful and the judgement for those who reject God's love. And perhaps that is true for someday in the future with the new heaven and the new earth, but the cutoff date for making the decision is at the White Throne Judgement, not human death.

 

[Hillsage]

Revelation can never be understood with a closed mind-set

Revelation???? How about 'the whole bible'...as is evidenced by many of the posts...posted here.

 

[lismore]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

I think your only option would be atheism.

Universalism would I believe require hell to be more like purgatory. A temporary cleansing place. Because nobody in their right mind would say the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Nero, Ian Brady, would automatically walk into paradise.

 

[Hillsage]

I think your only option would be atheism.
Universalism would I believe require hell to be more like purgatory. A temporary cleansing place.

Not even "Christians" walk in automatically according to scripture.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- ....15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Bypassing the 'Great White Throne judgment' doesn't mean that a Christian bypasses the firey 'judgment seat of Christ'. I kind of think Martin Luther made a bigger mistake by dropping purgatory and hanging on to hell.

Because nobody in their right mind would say the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Nero, Ian Brady, would automatically walk into paradise.

Actually it is kind of sad as to 'how right you are' concerning the 'wrong minds' of most "Christians". It must take 'the mind of Christ' to realize that no one is worthy, but we tend to think they are 'less so' than us....cause we are so nice. If you committed a sin YOU ARE A SINNER and fall short. So the door is just as SHUT for the guy who stole a piece of gum as it is for the guy who murdered....they are both SINNERS in need of a savior.

 

[Alive_Again]

I kind of think Martin Luther made a bigger mistake by dropping purgatory and hanging on to hell.

You think that it is a mistake to give heed to the admonition of the Lord to fear Him who has the power to.. send you to Hell?!

Don't ever let anyone talk you out of that. If you walk in the light, all is well. But still, we need to live our lives knowing that at any moment, our life might be required of us and we'll have to answer for our deeds. Choose well.

 

[Ronald]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

The question you'll come to is: If there is no Hell, then why would we need salvation? We wouldn't. This is what we are saved from. The wages of sin is death, physical and spiritual. Jesus gives us life eternal. But it is important to examine the nature of Hell. I have examined all the scriptures pertaining to Hell, a misunderstood and mysterious place. A few chapters in my book: Hell ... If I Know, are devoted to this topic. I'll share the gist of it with you in another thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7611544-7/#post59806057

 

[Alive_Again]

But it is important to examine the nature of Hell. I have examined all the scriptures pertaining to Hell, a misunderstood and mysterious place.

Without having read the link that accompanied this, I wanted to point out to the OP that the Bible gives you the plain truth regarding Hell.

Some would say that this punishment is very short and immediately and permanently destructive, because God is "merciful". That He wouldn't allow anyone to be tortured in Hell's flames for eternity, because of the goodness side of God. Consider the severity as well.

We're eternal beings created in the image and likeness of God. God didn't intend for any of us to go to Hell. Although we're born into deception, the opportunity for all to be saved is here. God reads the heart, is a just judge.

The fallen angels who were deceived by Lucifer have been causing problems here on earth for a very long time. Some of them joined with women and they have been held in everlasting chains (until the day of the consignment to the lake of fire). Now the lake of fire isn't supposed to be the relief, it's a worse punishment than spending thousands of years held in chains. If you just burn out quickly in the fire, then that's far better than doing a couple of millenia restricted in chains. The devils who tempt us and try to get us to go to Hell with them, have their fun with us here. Many of them torture the ones who make it in Hell right now. Their punishment (the fulness of it) is not until later. Now if every man is judged and the ones go to Hell only get sentenced, tossed into Hell and burn up immediately, where is the justice in letting the devils wait all of this time for their punishment?

Their punishment is worse, and the Word indicates that rewards and punishments vary in degree. The devil will be the last one to be judged, and if He just gets tossed into fire and burns out quickly, where is the justice compared to those who have been held in chains for thousands of years (until that day).

"That day" is the day when they the dead are brought forth to final judgment. It is their bodies that are raised because they are still aware in Hell of themselves, the vulnerability of their families, the lack of everything, and the utter hopelessness of their position. The lake of fire is very real, and it is a final punishment for all evildoer's. So "that day" is sure to come and it can't be explained away as some would do and say it is figurative.

Jesus would have everyone know that Hell is real and that the lake of fire is real. It's worse than being tormented in Hell.

Just as Heaven is wonderful and forever, Hell is horrible and forever. God is just to send those who reject His Son into torment, and if you don't think God will do this, you haven't read the Bible very well.

It is important to heed the warnings about it being forever. If you were to miss God and Heaven, you'd be very sorrowful and want your existence to just end. Not so. Being tossed into Hell will NOT end things. Part of the torment is knowing that you could have been saved. You'll know what you did to get there and the hopelessness will never end. It's vital to get this.

Your body has been temporarily connected to your soul and spirit. When that is loosed at death, you'll go to the place your inner nature dictates.

Most people who choose Univeralism and not an eternal Hell and everyone eventually getting saved often have lost a loved one and cannot reconcile the possiblity of that person going to Hell and being tormented forever.

I pray this doesn't happen to anyone we know, but if it did (and it often does), that person would have you know with everything that is in them, for you to not come there. To do everything possible to give heed to the Word of God and walk in divine love. Although they would miss you and know who their families are, they would rather never see you again, then have you join them. Let's believe in God's mercy, but don't let anyone softsell the reality of Hell and its eternal qualities.

The forever, eternal, everlasting words used to describe this judgment and suffering are the same words used to describe God's eternal qualities in the Bible. Be warned and do not receive words that "soften" the reality of Hell and its unending sufferings. The God who would throw someone into fire, would also keep you there because the power of choice is for all of us.

We must forgive others and have a pure heart by yielding to the Spirit of God. Consider NOT the objections of others cooperating with the enemy (however ignorantly). It is he that wants as many of us as he can deceive.