Is justification by faith alone?

[PETE_]

Topic: Is justification by faith alone?

Affirmative: mark kennedy

Negative: Athanasias

Rounds: 4 rounds each for a total of 8 posts.

Format: Alternating rounds initiated by the affirmative and concluding with the negative.

Time limit between posts: 2 week maximum, no minimum.

Maximum length for each post: 5000 words.

Quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule, which means that each response may contain no more than 200 words which quote or reference an outside source. The quote/reference citation is not part of the grand word total for the post, but proper citation is necessary if used. I’d like to add that when quoting snippets of Early Christian Writers that they should be cited in the most complete context available.

Peanut gallery here for readers of the debate and for the participants to post in after the debate is concluded is located HERE

The proposal for this debate is found Here

Good luck to both participants.

 

[mark kennedy]

I want to thank Athanasias for agreeing to this debate and apologize for it taking so long to get the OP up. When I use this particular computer sometimes my posts don't get posted, I have no idea what happens. Anyway, since it took so long to get this up I'm going to make my OP uncustomarily brief. Some of the things I would like to point out are the major differences we might have on Justification by Faith Alone and I also think it's important to emphasis the things we do agree on.

I keep a cross of last unction that was my grandmothers and used at the passing of her Aunt. When she died I found it among the things that the family was uninterested in keeping and it was a time when I was questioning some of the things I was being taught about baptism. I keep it because over time I began to look at the sacraments and really started to search for answers with regards to what Christian conviction includes. I was very interested in the Bible as history and deeply frustrated with Liberal Theology. Doctrines about baptism on the other hand didn't interest me all that much even though the denomination I was in emphasized that baptism was required for the remission of sins. To this day, how and even if you are baptized is not a major issue for me no matter how important it might be for you.

What is it that actually saves us? We know from the Scriptures we are sinners but how is it my fault that Adam sinned? That hardly seems fair and as these questions were storming in my mind I happened upon the doctrine of Justification by Faith. I am not shy about talking to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and even frequented a Jesus only church that believed Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Needless to I have been confronted with some really serious people trying to pull be one way and then the other. Sometimes my faith was shaken and I went to the only refuge I know when it comes to matters of doctrine. The Scriptures themselves.

I honestly don't care if you are baptized an infant, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or dunked there times as I heard on denomination was in the practice of doing. I even spent some time in a Pauline church that didn't even baptize at all, I thought it odd but not upsetting. What does concern me is what Christians believe about Christ and his activity in humans history from the beginning right to the last day when the books are opened. I accept some Church tradition but don't find it particularly helpful. I find many of the Church fathers to be elegant and informative but hardly consider them as authoritative as Paul.

For me the historicity of Scripture is far more important then rites and rituals, synods or Apocrypha books, symbols or modes of service. I believe that all Christians are filled with the Spirit upon but understanding and receiving the Gospel, the Word of our salvation. That the gifts of the Spirit are bestowed on believers for the work of the ministry and that the body of believers are the body of Christ, not the administrative offices. I have no qualms about affirming this nor do I have any personal need of defending it except as an exercise in study and testing my faith with other believers as steel sharpens steel.

If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent, The Fifth Session DECREE CONCERNING ORIGINAL SIN)​

First of all it is affirmed in the Council of Trent in the Fifth Session that the origin of sin was the sin of Adam and the curse of sin and death proceed from him. This has been a major issue with me in the Evolution/Creation controversy since the idea that we are descended from apes is hardly in keeping with Adam being the first man. That aside, where I think the heart of our disagreement is comes in with the inclusion of the Sacraments. In the evangelical tradition I embrace and intend to defend here it is grace through faith apart from works, rites, sacraments and good deeds. I say this with a full acceptance that justification starts the sanctification process which is the ministry of the Holy Spirit who is our Comforter promised to the Church at the Last Supper.

Faith is never alone but with regards to faith that brings salvation it is apart from works. I will add that I am well aware that Catholics do not deny that salvation is by grace and the often made accusation that they are preaching a works righteousness is simply wrong and could even be considered slanderous.

I said I would be brief so on to my primary proof texts.

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (Acts 10:43:44)​

Faith is an act of obedience, (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). What is more this passage directly ties the reception of the Holy Spirit with receiving the Holy Spirit which is the seal that guarantees our inheritance till the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13). That is after you 'trusted' and that being 'after you heard the word' which is this passage is before they received water baptism.

Baptism is a rite of repentance, it actually indicates the death of the former life. Jesus was baptized not for the remission of sins but for his ordination to active ministry, he would never return to being a carpenter. Brides were baptized in their wedding gown because it marked an end to their living in their mothers household as daughters, but they were starting their new lives as wives and mothers. They were called to be enjoined to Christ now by the passive participation of a sacrament but being identified with Christ's death, burial and resurrection as disciples. Baptism was commanded for disciple makers in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) to identify them as disciple of Christ. It is altogether possible to go into the baptismal as a dry sinner and come out a wet one. The mark of a true disciple is not water baptism but the Holy Spirit who is our Comforter ministering to us in Christ's absence so that we may bear fruit (Galatians 5:22) which is the mark of a true disciple:

"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love."If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love."These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. (John 15:8-12)​

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)​

This is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5). This is normative salvation, being born of the Spirit, becoming a new creature in Christ and being marked by the seal of the Holy Spirit of promise. Identifying the disciple with Christ in the death, burial and resurrection in water baptism is not enough, you must bear the fruit of the Spirit which is the mark of a true disciple.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)​

We are saved by the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, being justified by the grace of God which is normative salvation. Notice there is not mention of water baptism in Ephesians 1:13,14 or II Corinthians 5:4,5.

Saving faith is never alone, it is followed immediately by the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. The problem is not whether or not faith and justification are alone but what must be included for the surety of your salvation. There is no reason that I am aware of to belabor this opening post with further elaborations since I think I have stated my general position clearly and have no idea where my opponent is intending to take me with this.

The position I have taken and stand ready to defend is salvation by grace through faith apart from works and even the sacrament of baptism, even many reformers would no go so far as to do. In principle I agree that disciples are required to be baptized, it's just that you can go in a dry sinner and come out a wet one. From what I have read over the years about justification by faith it is inextricably linked to the authority of Scripture and the priesthood of all believers. I would accept this conditionally of course because it is mature believers that are capable of effectively using the gifts of grace to build up the church effectively.

What is added to faith to make it saving faith as opposed to a dead faith? In short we don't, what is added to us is the Holy Spirit of promise by whom we abide in Christ and bear fruit to the glory of God. I affirm the Scriptures are the infallible word of God and deny the succession of tradition and Papal authority to be inerrant. Salvation is by grace alone, faith alone and Christ alone and justification is never alone expect that it is apart from works, rites, sacraments and human institutions. Justification is never alone because when we hear the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit we are never alone, He abides with us forever as the Lord promised and by Him we bear fruit to the glory of the Father.

With that Athanasias you can feel free to respond as you see fit and may God be with us as we explore this vital doctrine of our faith.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Athanasias]

This may have to come in 2 installments since I wrote so much and the computer will not let me make a single post. But I assure everyone that these two post will not exceeed 5000 words!

Opening post # 1

I would like to thank Mark for allowing me to discuss this important issue with him. God bless us both Mark. I am sure we will learn something from each other. I would like to thank the Holy Trinity for allowing us to fruitfully discuss his all important word and truth on justification. May God bless us in and through and with his Son Jesus. Come Holy Spirit Come! And I ask the intercession of the Most Blessed Virgin Mother to pray for us and guide us to her Son in this dialog. May light and not heat come from this.

I am impressed very much Mark with your personal journey. God clearly is calling you to truth and to search it out wherever it may be. Perhaps he is calling you back home to his Catholic Church that he founded 2000 years ago. This is what he did with me when I left the Catholic Church and studied protestant religions years ago. I am very happy that you understand that Catholics do not teach works righteousness. Amen! Your study clearly has shown you the opposite. I often wander why Protestants think that about us? After all it was the Catholic Church that condemned the Pelagians and semi-Pelagian heresies for teaching such a thing. I think that pride and prejudice on both sides have prevented our common Churches understanding of each others theology. But I am hopeful because the Holy Spirit is working on Catholic-protestant dialog in the ecumenical movement for over 40 years and we have had many fruits come from this. Infact in the Lutheran Catholic dialog on justification which the World Lutheran Federation was part of(a very large Body of sola scriptura protestant Lutherans) we have made breakthroughs.


Salvation Catholic style


How is one saved and justified or made right with God? A Catholic would say by Christ grace alone through a living faith that works itself out in love( Gal 5:6). The Sacrament of baptism is the new covenant oath that Christ gave his church as a means of grace and initial salvation/ justification./ sanctification(1 Cor 6:9, Eph 5:26-27). The Sacraments are considered to be Christ work and baptism is the “normative” means for grace and initial salvation ( 1 Peter 3:21,Titus 3:5-7). It is Gods free gift to us.

Lets begin by looking to the solas you mentioned right at the end of your opening statement. Grace alone(Sola gratia), Christ alone(sola Christos) and Faith alone(Sola fide) are taught by protestants but did you know that they are also taught by Catholics as well. It is infallible Catholic teaching that we are saved by Grace alone(Which you acknowledge that you understand that Catholics do adhere to so that is cool). It is only by God’s grace that I can do anything. I can’t even ask the question of having faith without Gods grace moving me to do that at this moment. Christ alone is also a Catholic teaching. Since any work I do is merely by Christ grace and his saving work in the cross moving me towards obedience. It is all by Christ work on the cross and his grace alone that I am saved and have my sins washed away both initially at baptism (1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, 1 Cor 6:9, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38-39, Ez 36:25-27, Jn 3:3-5) or apart from it as God is not bound to his own sacraments they are only the normative means and finally (at death).

Now whether a Catholic is going to agree with the term faith alone depends on what you mean by faith alone. It is quite the norm that we Catholics have avoided using the term in general to avoid confusion. After all we all know that the only place in sacred scripture that states that we are saved by faith alone is James 2:24 where it explicitly says we are justified by works and not by faith alone! Now first to understand the Catholic position on this we must understand what the bible teaches about the term faith. St. James and St. Paul use the term faith differently in sacred scripture. James uses the term faith to mean “Intellectual assent” alone. In other words acknowledging God exist but that’s it. Well even the demons have this kind of faith and it does not save them. St. Paul however uses the term “faith” in a boarder sense. He uses the term faith to describe not just intellectual assent but also and trust and love. Infact Paul’s type of saving faith is a faith that is “working through love”(Gal 5:6). In the middle ages when the average Catholics heard the term faith he associated it with the concept of intellectual assent, the James 2:24 type of faith. So when the reformers came on the scene and started saying justification by faith alone the average catholic heard (intellectual assent alone) in their mind and they knew this was condemned by James. So the Council of Trent issued a condemnation of faith that type of faith alone but not all types of faith alone. This comes out when reading the council of Trents declaration on justification session 6 Canon 9. So only one form of faith alone was condemned, namely the James 2:24 type which Catholics thought applied to what protestants were saying . Now after 40 years of dialog with sola scriptura protestants like the Lutherans we realize that protestants also condemn that type of faith alone. Catholics and Lutherans/protestants both believe that we must have the type of faith that St. Paul speaks of in Gal 5:6. That is a faith that is formed in and worked out in love and trust . That is a saving faith. Amen!

 

[Athanasias]

Opening post # 2


The next question that throws off many Protestants is the question of the term merit. Now I know you know that Catholics do not teach works righteousness but for the sake of the others and your own edification I should post something on the understanding of merit and why it is no longer a divide between **Many**(not all) Lutherans and Catholics In the joint declaration on justification.

Meritorious Works

One of the main reasons for the divide between Protestants and Catholics in the realm of justification is the misunderstanding of theological terminology and phraseology used by our brethren in dialogue. When a Protestant hears a Catholic speak about meriting eternal life by our good works done in faith, he or she automatically imagines the Catholic is speaking of earning salvation by good works. Martin Luther and his followers had this misunderstanding, as the Augsburg Confession states “Deeds cannot reconcile us to God or earn forgiveness of sins, grace and justification...this teaching is discussed in many places by Paul who said ‘For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast.”

This is simply a problem of semantics. The Catholic teaching is the same was what St. Paul writes. The Catholic Church officially teaches that initial salvation and justification are a free gift from God and by his grace and not from anything we can do or merit, just as St. Paul teaches in that passage.

Protestants tend to misunderstand what Catholics mean by merit. Catholics have different kinds of merit. Protestants confuse the Catholic understanding of the merit of Christ’s “strict merit” with the merit we have as humans. The strict merit of Christ does actually earn something, namely redemption. But only Christ can do it. Human beings cannot “strictly” earn or merit anything the way Christ can(CCC 2008-2009).

When the term merit is used in reference to what we do as humans it refers to the “rewards” that we receive from God. These reward or merits are based on God’s promises and grace to us and not because of anything we earned. Catholic apologist and scholar James Akin explains “A Merit is anything that pleases God and moves him to issue a reward, not things that earn payment from God...Human beings cannot earn anything from God, though by his grace they can please him in a way he chooses to reward.”(James Akin Salvation controversy Page 65). Scripture shows that God gives humans the grace and ability to live properly and do acts that please him(1 Thess 4:1, Col 1:10). God grants His people initial salvation apart from any works and gives His life-saving grace to his Church(Eph 2:5-9). Once a person reaches initial salvation and has received Christ’s grace the Lord commands that a person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in them to both will and do(Phil 2:12). God commands us to walk in the works that he created us for(Eph 2:10).


Sometimes God chooses to reward these works if they please him. Jesus told his people that their righteousness must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees if they wish to see heaven(Matt 5:20). Christ also instructed His people to avoid vain practices and to pray in secret so they would receive a reward from the Father(Matt 6:1-4). The Father would see the works His son commanded His people to do and be pleased with His people, and because of His promise He would reward His people. This is a great example of Merit. Christ indicates to the Church that eternal life is also a reward. In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus speaks of the final judgment of heaven and hell. For those who clothed the naked, visited the sick, and fed the hungry were rewarded with eternal life. For those who did not suffered eternal punishment. For faith without works is not enough(James 2:14-17). Works must be accompanied.


Jesus is completely consistent with this teaching all through the new testament. Consider these two Biblical passages:

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment”(Jn 5:28-30).

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.”( Rev 22:12)

Also consider St. Paul, who is also consistent with Christ’s teaching, in these three Biblical passages:

"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" ( Rom 2:5-8).

"Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith"(Gal 6:7-10).

"Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ"(Col 3:23-24).

In fact every book in the New Testament with the exception of Philemon shows the outcome of our eternal destiny based on faith and obedience and not by faith alone(the James 2:24 sense).

The teaching of Merit as reward for obedience is something the entire early Church always taught. St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of St John the apostle, describes this in his Letters to Polycarp written in A.D. 110:

"Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armor. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you".

Cyril of Jerusalem wrote in Catechetical Lectures of A.D. 350, "The root of every good work is the hope of the resurrection, for the expectation of a reward nerves the soul to good work. Every laborer is prepared to endure the toils if he looks forward to the reward of these toils".

Cyprian of Carthage quotes Matthew on this very subject in A.D. 251:
"The Lord denounces [Christian evildoers], and says, ‘Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out devils, and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you who work iniquity’ [Matt. 7:21–23]. There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey his precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward"
.
St Augustine made the clear point that we can only merit because of Christ’s grace given to us which is in us, and when God rewards us He is simply then rewarding His own work He has done within us.

The Council of Trent shows that the Catholic Church denies the idea of justification by our own works apart from God’s grace and by the works of the Law.

The key to understanding the Catholic view of justification is simple. Scripture shows us that apart from Christ we can do nothing(Jn 15:5) but with the grace of Christ we can do all things(Phil 4:13), which includes meriting eternal life. For it is the grace of Christ within us that enables us to work for God’s pleasure(Phil 2:12-13) and He has promised to reward our good works us with eternal life if we are faithfully obedient to Him(Matt 16:27)

Well that is the end of my opening statement. I look forward to discussing more with you. God bless you!

 

[mark kennedy]

You had me till here:

The key to understanding the Catholic view of justification is simple. Scripture shows us that apart from Christ we can do nothing(Jn 15:5) but with the grace of Christ we can do all things (Phil 4:13), which includes meriting eternal life. For it is the grace of Christ within us that enables us to work for God’s pleasure(Phil 2:12-13) and He has promised to reward our good works us with eternal life if we are faithfully obedient to Him (Matt 16:27)

I have conceded that Catholics understand the central role of faith, grace and the merits of Christ apart from the works of the Law (in the Levitical and Mosaic sense). I further accept and affirm that Roman Catholics have rejected Pelagianism at the:

• Synod of Carthage 418 AD
• Council of Ephesus 431 AD
• Council of Orange 529 AD
• Synod of Valence 855 AD
• Council of Trent 1545-63

I simple stumble at this statement:

with the grace of Christ we can do all things (Phil 4:13), which includes meriting eternal life.

Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)​

A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could teach a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked. We will receive that full recompense of righteousness and be glorified forever based on Christ's merit, it is never our own and no Catholic theologian would dare deny this.

Brother I do not think you are in error, I think you misspoke. Even the very gifts of the Holy Spirit are described as 'grace', Charisma is the word and it means 'grace', pure and simple. The Church both as the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit is built up by grace alone since no other principle or word is ever attached to it in the writings of Paul on the subject of the gifts. That grace works in us and through us but could we be so profane in our infantile wretchedness to believe for a second that we merit anything? God forbid

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)​

What merits did these people bring, they even served as ministers and were sent away as evildoers. So from this passage this conclusion is drawn?

Cyprian of Carthage quotes Matthew on this very subject in A.D. 251:
"The Lord denounces [Christian evildoers], and says, ‘Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out devils, and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you who work iniquity’ [Matt. 7:21–23]. There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey his precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward"

Yes, righteous deeds do have merit and in the final judgment they will have weight. Let's talk a little bit about that since it would seem to be emerging as the heart of the emphasis. Who are these people in Matthew 7 and why is it that the redeemed can't recall a time that they had the opportunity to feed Christ when he was hungry, thirsty, in prison...etc. It has to be because they were not Christians, they had encountered Christians in their lives and how they treated them in this life is something Christ took very personally. I want you to think about that as I climb down off of my soapbox and offer you an explanation for my reaction.

Jesus describes believers in the Beatitudes as 'poor in spirit, mournful, meek, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers and this is very important, they are persecuted! (see or reflect on Matthew 5). Yes they are rich in good works and God is glorified because of them but their personal merit is based on the righteousness of God, His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that makes them fruitful ministers. On the last day they are revealed as being 'In Christ' not as deserving any personal merit but clothed in a righteousness not their own.

Christ goes on to describe the Christian walk as a narrow path. This path has two ditches (if you will allow me to expand on the analogy) and they are on the one side legalism and the other licentiousness (making grace a license to sin). Does it matter which ditch you all into? I tell you this not to confront you but to remind you what your faith and religious training has already made clear to you. We walk in faith and it is by grace that we receive the righteousness of Christ. These people James confronts in his letter and Paul confronts in 1 Cor. 11 had failed to discern the body of Christ. In the Revelation Jesus addresses the Ephesians saying that they had left their first love that everyone recognizes as the love for Christ himself. How do we love Christ in this world since he is absent? Quite simply, we are to treat believers as we would treat him because he takes how we treat them very personally.

Rome has spoken often and elegantly to the subject of the Treasury of Merit.

• Boniface VIII 1294-1303
• Clement VI 1342-52
• Sixtus IV 1471-84
• Julius II 1503-13
• Leo X 1513-21
• Pius IV 1559-65
• Pius IX 1846-78
• Pius XII 1939-58

The practice found theoretical justification in the doctrine of the Treasure of Merits of Christ and the saints, expounded by Alexander of Hales (Summa IV QU 83) and confirmed in the Bull Unigentus of Clement VI, 1343, which includes the statement that Christ 'acquired a treasure for the Church militant.' In 1476 Pope Sixtus IV extended the scope of an Indulgence to the souls in purgatory. By the beginning of the sixteenth century, Indulgences had becaome a holy business (sacrum negotium) so complex as to demand the superintendence of the Banking House of Fugger. (Pupp, Luther's Progress p.23. Taken from R.C. Sproul's Justification by Faith Alone)​

By justification by faith alone we mean simply that it is apart from the merits of both ourselves and even the saints. It is faith alone, Christ alone, grace alone from the moment saving faith gives entrance of the Holy Spirit to the heart of the believer, until the redemption of the purchase price. Yes faith works and those who receive the grace of God can work diligently as Paul and the many other ministers of the Gospel had and do, yet it is by grace. It is the unmerited favor that comes from Christ alone, the sole depositor to the Treasury of merit.

I don't see any serious differences here other then the central emphasis, merit is not ours. We cannot, in fact we dare not, rob God of glory by assuming that we do. I do not advocate nor approve of easy believism since that is as much an insult to the spirit of grace as any works righteousness. I would also add that if you are having a tough time treating Christians with the mercy and grace God has shown you then you have good reason to reflect on whether you are a Christian at all and indeed, we all should from time to time.

Yes, in Christ we fulfill the law by loving our neighbor as ourself. God is glorified when a sinner repents and grows in his or her walk to bear much fruit. I simply do not affirm nor can I accept that there is any personal merit apart from the completed work of Christ, in this sense justification by faith is forever alone since apart from the grace of God we can do nothing. Grace produces good works, that is the whole point. The Son of God promised to bring us to the Father righteous and will by the power of the Holy Spirit keep his promise. On that day God alone will be glorified and our personal merit will burn up in the fire of his judgment with only the merit of Christ remaining. May God richly bless you as you continue to explore and understand this great mystery of the faith as it is being revealed in your heart, your mind and in your works.

I would just add one thing, my journey is not leading me back to Rome. While I long to extend the right hand of fellowship to my Catholic brethren I simply cannot accept much of what has been canonized nor agree with all that has been called anathema. I bear you no malice and pray God's blessings both in this life and the one to come to you and as many as the Lord shall call. We live in anxious expectation for the sons of God to be revealed and strain from our very souls to see the glorious appearing of our Savior and work as those who must give an account.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Athanasias]

Hi Mark. God be with you! Excellent post! You had some good points. Perhaps I was unclear in my initial presentation. I think the Catholic Church agrees with you on much of what you said but perhaps you just do not realize it or perhaps I was unclear. Lets see if I can address some of your concerns.

I simple stumble at this statement:



Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)

Lets recap a bit because I feel terminology can be confusing. When a Catholic uses the term merit in application to justification and salvation of a person he is not speaking of earning anything by his own good works apart from Christ grace. He is speaking of receiving a “reward” based on “Gods promise and Grace” within us. I know this can get confusing because we have several different meaning of the term merit. Christ merit is called strict merit and that is the only type of merit that earns something and only Christ can do it.

The Catholic Church teaches that it is only by Gods grace that I can do anything! So we would agree with you that apart from Christ, his Cross, and his grace we can do nothing (Jn 15:5), in fact I quoted that very verse in my opening statement. In fact this is what Paul teaches in 1 Cor 15:10. On my own my merits count for nothing. Only Christ himself and his “strict merit” can grant me salvation. However, since I am now a adopted(Gal 4:1-7), regenerated (Titus 3:5-7), Son of God in Christ Jesus and his grace (Eph 2:5-9) and I have become a partaker of the divine nature (1 Pet 1:4) then any work I do is only the work of Christ and his grace within me and Christ will then reward (I will merit) his own handiwork as St. Augustine says.

This seems to be very biblical as Jesus and St. Paul teach that a man cannot save himself and the works of the Law cannot save a man(Rom 3:28) But only Christ grace can save a man(Eph 2:5-9). However, once that free gift of grace, initial salvation( Titus 3:5-7), sanctification(1 Cor 6:9), and sonship(Gal 4:1-7) are given a man then he is commanded to walk in those good works that have been prepared before him(Eph 2:10) and work out his own salvation with fear and trembling(Phil 2:12). This is possible because it is God and his grace that will work within us both to will and work for his good pleasure.(Phil 2:12).

St. Paul and Jesus stress that once a man received grace and initial salvation and sonship in Christ he can merit (Receive the reward of eternal life) from God. (Rom 2:5-10. Gal 6:6-10, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5: 28-30. Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

A few verse I feel helps display this point of God sonship to us and our reward for our works in his sonship are these:

“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him”.(Rom 8:15-18)

Paul himself even admits that since we are children of God we are his heirs and will receive his inheritance provided we suffer with him. Paul makes even stronger connection in Col in how our works in grace receive this inheritance as a reward..

“Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.” (Col 3:23-24).

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)

What merits did these people bring, they even served as ministers and were sent away as evildoers. So from this passage this conclusion is drawn?

I appreciate this verse. In fact I would even say that the Catholic church agrees with this verse 100% as she does with all of scripture as she is the Church who gave us these scriptures. However, I would politely disagree with you here. I would say that given the context of this passage it proves the Catholic understanding of faith and works and not faith alone. In fact I use this verse when I teach to show the Catholic understanding.

Lets look again at the context. I would argue that Jesus is showing us here that our works alone cannot save us or by our faith alone it must be both. We cannot ever say to God “Look what I did you owe me” that would be boasting of our prideful works( very pelagian idea condemned by the Catholic church) and would not be meritorious as St. Paul condemns that type of understanding (Rom 3:27, Rom 4::2). We also in the same way cannot say to God we have faith in Christ and call him our Lord if we do not Do what he commands us to Do. Thus saving faith involves us doing his will, by walking in the works he prepared for us. In other words obedience to him. This is the Catholic point.

Yes, righteous deeds do have merit and in the final judgment they will have weight. Let's talk a little bit about that since it would seem to be emerging as the heart of the emphasis. Who are these people in Matthew 7 and why is it that the redeemed can't recall a time that they had the opportunity to feed Christ when he was hungry, thirsty, in prison...etc. It has to be because they were not Christians, they had encountered Christians in their lives and how they treated them in this life is something Christ took very personally. I want you to think about that as I climb down off of my soapbox and offer you an explanation for my reaction.

Jesus describes believers in the Beatitudes as 'poor in spirit, mournful, meek, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers and this is very important, they are persecuted! (see or reflect on Matthew 5). Yes they are rich in good works and God is glorified because of them but their personal merit is based on the righteousness of God, His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that makes them fruitful ministers. On the last day they are revealed as being 'In Christ' not as deserving any personal merit but clothed in a righteousness not their own.

Christ goes on to describe the Christian walk as a narrow path. This path has two ditches (if you will allow me to expand on the analogy) and they are on the one side legalism and the other licentiousness (making grace a license to sin). Does it matter which ditch you all into? I tell you this not to confront you but to remind you what your faith and religious training has already made clear to you. We walk in faith and it is by grace that we receive the righteousness of Christ. These people James confronts in his letter and Paul confronts in 1 Cor. 11 had failed to discern the body of Christ. In the Revelation Jesus addresses the Ephesians saying that they had left their first love that everyone recognizes as the love for Christ himself. How do we love Christ in this world since he is absent? Quite simply, we are to treat believers as we would treat him because he takes how we treat them very personally.

Catholics also teach that their personal merit is based on Gods grace and righteousness in them and not apart from it. So this is not a issue. Now I must also politely disagree with you my brother on one issue you bring up. You suggest that in Matt 25 the reason that the damned did not feed the hungry or clothe the naked was because they were not true Christians anyway. You quoted the beatitudes as a example of how a Christian is to behave. I agree with you that the beatitudes are the ways a Christian is supposed to behave but I disagree with you that a Christian will automatically always behave in such fashion. In fact one can be sanctified in Christ blood and have faith in him as a Christian and then fall away(Lk 8:13, Heb 3:12, Heb 10:26-31) by disobedience which God will judge with hell(Rom 2:8). I find no contextual evidence that Matt 25 speaks of all the unrighteoness being non-Christians. I think that this is a meaning that good hearted Calvinist and Baptist Christians simply insert into the text but the textual evidence along with the evidence of Christian history goes the opposite way. This is something that even many sola scriptura protestant denominations such as the Lutherans see in scripture and agree with the Catholics on.

Rome has spoken often and elegantly to the subject of the Treasury of Merit.

* Boniface VIII 1294-1303
* Clement VI 1342-52
* Sixtus IV 1471-84
* Julius II 1503-13
* Leo X 1513-21
* Pius IV 1559-65
* Pius IX 1846-78
* Pius XII 1939-58

The practice found theoretical justification in the doctrine of the Treasure of Merits of Christ and the saints, expounded by Alexander of Hales (Summa IV QU 83) and confirmed in the Bull Unigentus of Clement VI, 1343, which includes the statement that Christ 'acquired a treasure for the Church militant.' In 1476 Pope Sixtus IV extended the scope of an Indulgence to the souls in purgatory. By the beginning of the sixteenth century, Indulgences had becaome a holy business (sacrum negotium) so complex as to demand the superintendence of the Banking House of Fugger. (Pupp, Luther's Progress p.23. Taken from R.C. Sproul's Justification by Faith Alone) ?

One thing I think must confuse many protestant scholars is the complex theology and phraseology of the Church. When dealing with these “kinds” of merits we are “not” dealing with the salvation of souls. We are dealing with temporal punishments ie.. Purgatory for those already going to heaven the justified. Purgatory is a separate debate which I would be happy to do later but we must stick to this debate which is about justification/ salvation or how I become right with God and get to heaven. All Merit even saints is nothing more than Christ grace and merit in them working through them. The understanding of indulgences and Purgatory deal with not who is saved or justified or how ones eternal soul gets judged but how Christ grace is applied to the sanctification of souls in temporary punishment. Indulgences are given to those who already have been saved/justified but are being purified. Of coarse this is all done by Christ grace and his Cross. This really has nothing to do with our discussion so I not address the issue any more in this debate.

I don't see any serious differences here other then the central emphasis, merit is not ours. We cannot, in fact we dare not, rob God of glory by assuming that we do. I do not advocate nor approve of easy believism since that is as much an insult to the spirit of grace as any works righteousness. I would also add that if you are having a tough time treating Christians with the mercy and grace God has shown you then you have good reason to reflect on whether you are a Christian at all and indeed, we all should from time to time.

I do think that we rob God of his glory by meriting. Meriting in the human sense in Catholic theology simply means receiving a reward. Scripture shows Christians receiving the reward of eternal life by God based on his grace and promises to us. Since this reward is based on Gods grace and promise to us as Sons and Daughters of God in and through Christ then it in no way robs God at all it rather glorifies him.

Yes, in Christ we fulfill the law by loving our neighbor as ourself. God is glorified when a sinner repents and grows in his or her walk to bear much fruit. I simply do not affirm nor can I accept that there is any personal merit apart from the completed work of Christ, in this sense justification by faith is forever alone since apart from the grace of God we can do nothing. Grace produces good works, that is the whole point. The Son of God promised to bring us to the Father righteous and will by the power of the Holy Spirit keep his promise. On that day God alone will be glorified and our personal merit will burn up in the fire of his judgment with only the merit of Christ remaining. May God richly bless you as you continue to explore and understand this great mystery of the faith as it is being revealed in your heart, your mind and in your works.

I would just add one thing, my journey is not leading me back to Rome. While I long to extend the right hand of fellowship to my Catholic brethren I simply cannot accept much of what has been canonized nor agree with all that has been called anathema. I bear you no malice and pray God's blessings both in this life and the one to come to you and as many as the Lord shall call. We live in anxious expectation for the sons of God to be revealed and strain from our very souls to see the glorious appearing of our Savior and work as those who must give an account.

Again I think that our terminology here confuses you a bit. Merit in our understanding in justification/salvation only refers to “rewards” we receive from God, namely the reward of eternal life and does not mean that our own righteousness “earn us” salvation apart from Christ or with Christ. Christ simply gives us his free gift of grace in initial salvation and then by “his grace” he commands us to walk in the works he prepares for us. When we do this and are obedient to him he sees our works(which are nothing more then his grace working in us) and he “rewards” us with eternal life(Gal 6:6-10, Rom 2:5-10, Jn 5:28-30. Matt 16:27, Matt 25:31-46, Col 3:23-24) because of Gods promise and grace to us. So the Catholic can say that it is in Christ alone that we are saved. It is in grace alone that we are saved and in a qualified sense it is in faith alone(A faith working through love Gal 5:6) that we are saved.

I am truly enjoying this debate and learning much about your perspective. I do not harbor any bad feeling towards you or my good hearted protestant brethren either. I look forward to hearing from you. May God bless you always in your journey to truth Mark.


In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

 

[mark kennedy]

The working definition for 'grace' I am working from is 'unmerited favor', when even the gifts of the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12) literally mean grace we are left to wonder if personal merit can even be applied. Rome has affirm this in the various canons of Trent and I would not fell obliged to accuse them of not making faith and grace central to their doctrinal statements. Often Rome has concerns about potential heresy and their scholars must remain constantly vigilant about what they call in my business, 360 degree security. The only real problem that has been created by Reformation theology is the instrumental cause of justification. The central point of doctrine for Protestants in general and evangelicals in particular is simply this, your merit counts for nothing.

Your righteousness is a guarantee based on the work of Christ that is imputed by faith alone. What is infused is the sanctification of the Holy Spirit who applies God's communicable attributes to the persons heart, mind and soul. God calls what is not as if it were because when the Son of God promised, before the foundation of the world, that believers would be the righteousness of God in Him it was as good as done. The thing is though, it is never your righteousness that saves you, your merit is never a consideration. If salvation is by grace then so is sanctification and I find this truth inescapable.

The Catholic Church teaches that it is only by Gods grace that I can do anything!

Amen! You will get no quarrel from me on that well established point of doctrine. I'll even go one better, if you fail to bear fruit you will be cursed like the fig tree Jesus cursed that died the same day. What was wrong with this fig tree? In short it was infertile and the proper thing to do was to cut it down and burn the roots. It was robbing the other trees of their nutrients, if you don't bear fruit you suffer the same fate only worse.

"Then He told this parable: 'A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'" (Luke 13:6-9)​

I speak to you as one who knows the Scriptures so when I say God must be both Just and Justifier of those who are saved and I expect you will remember Romans 3. We must bear fruit otherwise God's justice cannot be satisfied. We talk a lot about how we are justified before God but forget sometimes that God must be justified, glorified and obeyed or our salvation is a delusion. I understand your concerns but what we are talking about is justification by faith through faith in Christ alone because this tree cannot fertilize itself. This is a picture of justification, we merit only being cut down and burned. In that sense justification is always alone but as I have said repeatedly, justification is never alone, we must bear fruit and that is the role of grace as well.

This seems to be very biblical as Jesus and St. Paul teach that a man cannot save himself and the works of the Law cannot save a man(Rom 3:28) But only Christ grace can save a man(Eph 2:5-9). However, once that free gift of grace, initial salvation( Titus 3:5-7), sanctification(1 Cor 6:9), and sonship(Gal 4:1-7) are given a man then he is commanded to walk in those good works that have been prepared before him(Eph 2:10) and work out his own salvation with fear and trembling(Phil 2:12). This is possible because it is God and his grace that will work within us both to will and work for his good pleasure.(Phil 2:12).

Amen! We dare not profess a faith that does not bear fruit as James warned, we must fulfill the Royal Law (James 2:8-12), put to death the deeds of our earthly nature (Colossians 3:5), and clothe ourselves with the compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, forgiveness of our salvation (Col 3:12). Which is how the Bride of Christ is adorned, that is, in the righteous deeds of the saints (Rev. 19:8). That righteousness is not ours except as a free gift, your merit counts for nothing.

St. Paul and Jesus stress that once a man received grace and initial salvation and sonship in Christ he can merit (Receive the reward of eternal life) from God. (Rom 2:5-10. Gal 6:6-10, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5: 28-30. Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

There it is again, this elusive idea of merit, you receive your reward based on God's unmerited favor. Even the Council of Trent differentiated between actual grace and sanctifying grace. This is the logical dividing line between Justification by faith alone and the sanctification process that bears fruit in the life and works of believers. You must be convicted of sin, you must be enlightened as to the person and work of Christ and receive the Holy Spirit who is the agent of the sanctification work. I do not and will not argue that we do not participate in the sanctification process since we both know it's not God's failure when we fail to bear fruit. My central point and the deepest point of doctrine we are considering is whether justification is in any way a matter of our merit and it cannot be. We are wretched (Rom 6) and incapable of fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. It is the conviction that comes from our spiritual destitution that calls us to repentance by God the Father, our realization that in Christ alone is the righteousness of God (Romans 3:21-23). Then and only then can we receive the Holy Spirit of promise who washes, renews and regenerates us (Titus 3:5).

Justification by faith alone seems unnatural since we both know that it is never alone. We must surrender and put away our poisoned works completely and then and only them can God's work of redemption produce fruit. I don't keep going back to this to tease apart some contentious, semantical point of doctrine, in fact, I fully realize you know you are nothing apart from the grace shown us in Christ. I only remind you of these things because you desire to be a faithful servant and it is grace that empowered Paul and grace that saves you and all you seek to minister to.

A few verse I feel helps display this point of God sonship to us and our reward for our works in his sonship are these:

“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him”.(Rom 8:15-18)

“Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.” (Col 3:23-24).

My point is simply this, God's grace works in us well before it can work through us. Paul confessed that his works were all grace and when considering the thief on the cross and the conversion of the Gentiles I do not hold to any personal merit being a basis for your justification. It is the result of salvation that brings fruit, never the cause of justification.

Lets look again at the context. I would argue that Jesus is showing us here that our works alone cannot save us or by our faith alone it must be both. We cannot ever say to God “Look what I did you owe me” that would be boasting of our prideful works( very pelagian idea condemned by the Catholic church) and would not be meritorious as St. Paul condemns that type of understanding (Rom 3:27, Rom 4::2). We also in the same way cannot say to God we have faith in Christ and call him our Lord if we do not Do what he commands us to Do. Thus saving faith involves us doing his will, by walking in the works he prepared for us. In other words obedience to him. This is the Catholic point.

I'm well aware that our faith must work, bear fruit and glorify God. The logical separation between justification and sanctification is an intellectual one, justification is never alone. The question is what role my merit plays in my justification and the answer is simply that it does not, because it cannot.

Catholics also teach that their personal merit is based on Gods grace and righteousness in them and not apart from it. So this is not a issue. Now I must also politely disagree with you my brother on one issue you bring up. You suggest that in Matt 25 the reason that the damned did not feed the hungry or clothe the naked was because they were not true Christians anyway. You quoted the beatitudes as a example of how a Christian is to behave. I agree with you that the beatitudes are the ways a Christian is supposed to behave but I disagree with you that a Christian will automatically always behave in such fashion. In fact one can be sanctified in Christ blood and have faith in him as a Christian and then fall away(Lk 8:13, Heb 3:12, Heb 10:26-31) by disobedience which God will judge with hell(Rom 2:8). I find no contextual evidence that Matt 25 speaks of all the unrighteoness being non-Christians. I think that this is a meaning that good hearted Calvinist and Baptist Christians simply insert into the text but the textual evidence along with the evidence of Christian history goes the opposite way. This is something that even many sola scriptura protestant denominations such as the Lutherans see in scripture and agree with the Catholics on.

Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16-19)​

I'm well aware of the context of Matt 25 but you must realize that the Church and the world are subject to two different times of judgment. At any rate, you mentioned Hebrews a couple of times but the heart of the emphasis is on the destruction of the unbelievers. Yes they disobeyed, they disobeyed by not believing. Without faith you cannot receive the promise and without that faith the Holy Spirit does not let you into the rest that would sanctify. They had rejected the basis for salvation and that was faith alone since as slaves they could do nothing to free themselves. Even being free, in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, they always went astray in their hearts and it was expressed in their acts of defiance and complaints that never ceased.

..This really has nothing to do with our discussion so I not address the issue any more in this debate.

Then we will leave that for a future discussion.

I do think that we rob God of his glory by meriting. Meriting in the human sense in Catholic theology simply means receiving a reward. Scripture shows Christians receiving the reward of eternal life by God based on his grace and promises to us. Since this reward is based on Gods grace and promise to us as Sons and Daughters of God in and through Christ then it in no way robs God at all it rather glorifies him.

It can when we claim some personal merit with regards to justification since our merit is utterly lacking with regards to justification. Now I readily admit we are involved in at least accepting God's revelation and grace but that is an absence of personal merit. That is why the Beatitude attitude starts with being poor in spirit, mourning, meek and hungering and thirsting for a righteousness that we are starved for. There is no merit in that beggarly and wretched state and the sanctification that follows justification is itself by grace.

Again I think that our terminology here confuses you a bit. Merit in our understanding in justification/salvation only refers to “rewards” we receive from God, namely the reward of eternal life and does not mean that our own righteousness “earn us” salvation apart from Christ or with Christ.

That qualified sense is that justification by faith is alone, only in the sense of personal merit. Of course God blesses those who obey and there is a reward for those who diligently apply the grace of God to their lives, to say otherwise would be as much a heresy as saying 'let us sin that grace may abound'. I know what we are saved for, we must bear fruit but what we are saved by is faith alone, grace alone and Christ alone. Then when we receive that imputed righteousness of God in Christ and only then, can we say 'Abba Father' and walk after the Spirit.

I am truly enjoying this debate and learning much about your perspective. I do not harbor any bad feeling towards you or my good hearted protestant brethren either. I look forward to hearing from you. May God bless you always in your journey to truth Mark.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

Well you have come as quite a surprise, apart from a passage or two we seem to be in agreement on the importance of grace. I am not opposed to Rome and certainly not interested in beating up on their doctrines. I have dealt with some far more serious errors over the years and while I find some of your views objectionable, I certainly don't have a moments hesitation extended the right hand of fellowship and invitation to further discussion.

This debate like the others that have gone before it will run it's course. Dare we waste energy arguing semantics and polemics while the world perishes for lack of knowledge? God forbid! Is there any Christian theologian that would pretend that justification can be without sanctification? Not unless they think that Christ can be apart from the Holy Spirit.

That's not what we are debating, we are debating whether justification by faith through grace is apart from personal merit. We seem to be in agreement that it can be only a logical separation since we must bear fruit. Grace is apart from our effort but justification is never without sanctification otherwise we are fruitless trees and we only have a short season to bear fruit before we are cast into the fire. When we do bear fruit we are Christ's workmanship, that not of ourselves lest any man should boast. When we do it glorifies God who is both just and justifier of those who believe.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Athanasias]

This will come in two post again!

Post # 1 Hi Mark! God bless you! You are a good thinker and had many good questions. I will try my best to answer them.

The working definition for 'grace' I am working from is 'unmerited favor', when even the gifts of the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12) literally mean grace we are left to wonder if personal merit can even be applied. ….The only real problem that has been created by Reformation theology is the instrumental cause of justification. The central point of doctrine for Protestants in general and evangelicals in particular is simply this, your merit counts for nothing.


Your righteousness is a guarantee based on the work of Christ that is imputed by faith alone. What is infused is the sanctification of the Holy Spirit who applies God's communicable attributes to the persons heart, mind and soul.. The thing is though, it is never your righteousness that saves you, your merit is never a consideration. If salvation is by grace then so is sanctification and I find this truth inescapable.

Catholics would agree with you that grace is unmerited favor. In fact our Catechism and Catholic dictionary says the same. The Catholic church teaches that the initial grace of justification and salvation are a free gift given by God and not because of any personal merits on mans part. This initial salvation of grace apart from out own merits is what Paul describes in Eph 2:5-9 and Titus 3:5-7 amen! So Catholics would agree with you on this too. However The way we see it and the way I find to be the most biblical is this; God gives us his free gift of grace and initial Salvation. Sanctification, and Justification in the sacrament of Holy Baptism. This is what Pope St. Pete and the apostle St.Paul describe in 1 Peter 3:19-21, 1 Cor 6:9, and Titus 3:5-7. Now its true that gift of grace is free and unmerited. However we must also look at the whole of sacred scripture and Christian tradition to understand this issue and when we do that we see that once a person is given the gift of initial salvation/justification/sanctification then he is called to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). He can only do this because of the grace of Christ that is in him. But he himself is still called to use the gift God gives him and to work it out.

This to us is how we see merit in human terms. Humans in the “strict sense” cannot ever merit or earn salvation. Only Christ can and it is a free gift. However once our souls are regenerated(Titus 3:5-7) and infused with the Holy Spirit and made good partakers of the divine nature(2 Peter 1:4) by God, then we become Gods children and heirs to heaven provided we are obedient(Rom 2:5-10) to God and do the works God command of us to walk in (Eph 2:10). In other words in the “analogous sense” the sense that a Father lets his son share in his life, we Merit or are rewarded for our good works/obedience which are Christ works in us. This is what St. Paul describes: God sees his own good works in us and rewards us his Children ,his handi-work as St. Augustine would describe.

Sonship is key here to meriting in the human sense as Paul shows.

“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him”.(Rom 8:15-18).


““Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.” (Col 3:23-24).

Catholics do not deny that it is the grace of God and Christ strict merit that earns humans salvation. Any good work or thing I do as a regenerated Christian is nothing more than the grace of Christ and his power working in me to do these things. I simply obey and give my will and assent to him. When I do this and do those things he calls me and commands me to do he sees the works I do (which are nothing more than his grace and life within me) and He chooses to reward(Merit in the human sense) them with eternal life.

This is very biblical. I know I have already touched on this but almost every book in the new testament reveals this Catholic understanding:

“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" ( Rom 2:5-8).

“Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith"(Gal 6:7-10).

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment”(Jn 5:28-30).


“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.”( Rev 22:12)


“For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.(Matt 16:27)”



My righteousness is based on Christ righteousness and his work. It is this reason that it is by his grace alone that I am saved and not of myself. However as a regenerated, transformed. Christian and partaker of Christ divine nature and newly made son of God I now share in Christ righteousness so that any work I do is a reflection of his own righteousness hence that is how humans can merit at all as Jesus and St Paul show.

Perhaps the most beautiful passage in the bible comes from St. Johns epistles:

“See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are……….Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous”(1 Jn 3:1,7).

I hope that helps clarify the Catholic position more.

…..This is a picture of justification, we merit only being cut down and burned. In that sense justification is always alone but as I have said repeatedly, justification is never alone, we must bear fruit and that is the role of grace as well. .

I agree with you that a tree cannot fertilize itself. God must do that. That is why we Catholics believe in Grace alone. And I do also agree with you that those that do not do those works Christ command of us will be thrown into the fire. Hence we can merit or demerit hell if you will! However I must strongly and gently disagree with you that we can only merit hell. Christ Jesus and St. Paul are very direct that a Christian can merit(Be rewarded with by Gods grace and promise) eternal life in the following passages I keep bringing up(Rom 2:5-10. Gal 6:6-10, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5: 28-30. Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12. Col 3:23-24).

 

[Athanasias]

Part II of Post

Amen! We dare not profess a faith that does not bear fruit as James warned, we must fulfill the Royal Law (James 2:8-12), put to death the deeds of our earthly nature (Colossians 3:5), and clothe ourselves with the compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, forgiveness of our salvation (Col 3:12). Which is how the Bride of Christ is adorned, that is, in the righteous deeds of the saints (Rev. 19:8). That righteousness is not ours except as a free gift, your merit counts for nothing. .

Again I agree with you brother that my righteousness is a free gift from God by his grace alone that transforms me. Amen! However again I must politely disagree that my merit counts for nothing once I am saved. The bible shows that it does as I have shown above in the passages from Paul and Jesus. This is because I am a son of God and a partaker of his divine nature and my life is filled with his grace which enables me to do good works and be obedient to him. In return he has promised to reward these actions with eternal life because they please him and they are his grace within us and not because he owes us anything.

I think perhaps a big difference between us is our understanding here is the protestant understanding of justification by mere legal forensic imputation or the Catholic understanding of justification by a infused imputation if you will. In other words Christ just doesn’t give us a mere legal imputation or declaration of righteousness as a courtroom decree. In the Catholic understanding What God decrees actually happens.

Martin Luther was a good German as well as I am of German descent. And as a good German he used analogies that would help German people understand his theology which would later become the basis for most protestant theology. Germans often if they were rich would have a lot of cow dung in their fields. He related the Christian to a dunghill capped in snow. In other words the Christian is a piece of poop but once Christ righteousness is merely legally declared to him in a courtroom decree then Christ covers him with his righteousness(snow) and now the Christian will not be punished although underneath the Christian is still a piece of dung just capped in snow. It is as if poop was covered in roses now. The Catholic accepts that Christ declares the person righteous in a courtroom manner but we see this as only a partial truth because we see that God acts a a Father fathering families not just a judge passing judgment. We believe with St. John that we actually become adopted sons of God and real partakers of his divine nature in Christ grace by our sonship and because what God decrees actually happens unlike a mere courtroom. I feel this is one of the most biblical things I have discovered about the Catholic faith. The Catholic and biblical understanding is that the poop is not just covered in roses or snow but is itself transformed into roses from the inside out so no poop remains.

I cannot hold to what I perceive as Luther’s misinterpretation of scripture on this issue. I hope that helps clarify the Catholic understanding.

There it is again, this elusive idea of merit, you receive your reward based on God's unmerited favor….. This is the logical dividing line between Justification by faith alone and the sanctification process that bears fruit in the life and works of believers. You must be convicted of sin, you must be enlightened as to the person and work of Christ and receive the Holy Spirit who is the agent of the sanctification work. I do not and will not argue that we do not participate in the sanctification process since we both know it's not God's failure when we fail to bear fruit. My central point and the deepest point of doctrine we are considering is whether justification is in any way a matter of our merit and it cannot be. We are wretched (Rom 6) and incapable of fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. It is the conviction that comes from our spiritual destitution that calls us to repentance by God the Father, our realization that in Christ alone is the righteousness of God (Romans 3:21-23). Then and only then can we receive the Holy Spirit of promise who washes, renews and regenerates us (Titus 3:5).

I see what you are saying but I must disagree with you here again. Before we are initially justified and when we are merely in the flesh then yes apart from Christ and his grace we are wretched in a sense as Paul alludes to. Paul speaks of his concupiscence with we all have due to Adam and Eve. However, Once I have received the free gift of initial salvation/justification/sanctification in the sacrament of Holy Baptism(Rom 6:1-23, 1 Cor 6:9) I have become a Child of God, a partaker of his divine nature and are made good by his grace because he is good and his life fills me and transforms me. God does not make garbage nor will he dwell within in it. I still sin occasionally although I never have to it is by weakness and choice known as concupiscence yet I have the life of God within me making me his good child and strengthening me to do all things(Phil 4:13) including meriting eternal life(Rom 2:5-10, Gal 6:6-10). I can throw that life and grace away(Gal 5:3-4) by using my free will to commit mortal sin. Then I have a unction with God by the Sacrament of Confession and his Holy Spirit calling me to repentance.

My point is simply this, God's grace works in us well before it can work through us. Paul confessed that his works were all grace and when considering the thief on the cross and the conversion of the Gentiles I do not hold to any personal merit being a basis for your justification. It is the result of salvation that brings fruit, never the cause of justification. ).

I agree with you that grace works in us first before it can work through us. Amen! Catholics would also say that all our works are Christ grace! Amen! The issue of the Thief and the gentiles I think confuses you because maybe I was not clear in my presentation my good brother.

Catholics believe that justification/salvation/sanctification are not just a one time event in the Catholic understanding. They are all a life long process that have a initial beginning and final end all done by Gods grace alone. So Initial salvation is when I am saved initially. Then after that with Gods grace and help I must work out my own salvation in this life with Gods grace (Phil 2:12) then hopefully at the end of life I will remain in Gods grace and be saved/completely sanctified/justified. The thief on the cross had no way of getting off the cross and God knew the thief could not so God was merciful to him and gave him salvation before he died. He was a exception! God makes exceptions all the times when someone is impeded from one thing or another.

I'm well aware of the context of Matt 25 but you must realize that the Church and the world are subject to two different times of judgment. At any rate, you mentioned Hebrews a couple of times but the heart of the emphasis is on the destruction of the unbelievers. Yes they disobeyed, they disobeyed by not believing. Without faith you cannot receive the promise and without that faith the Holy Spirit does not let you into the rest that would sanctify. They had rejected the basis for salvation and that was faith alone since as slaves they could do nothing to free themselves. Even being free, in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, they always went astray in their hearts and it was expressed in their acts of defiance and complaints that never ceased. ).

I disagree with you politely again brother. What is being described in Matt 25 deals with the church as it is the end being foretold. Their probably is no better book then the book of Hebrews to show how one can fall from grace and loose his salvation by committing mortal sin. Hebrews speaks of believers and not unbelievers when referring to those who can fall away.

Here are a few examples:

“Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.(Heb 3:6-7)

We must hold fast to Christ if not we can fall away.

“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt”.(Heb 6:4-6)

It can happen! You can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and taste the heavenly gift and been enlightened (a true sign of sonship and a Chistian) and still fall away into apostasy according to Hebrews. Jesus also makes this connection about those Christians who believe for a while and fall away(Lk 8:13)

Perhaps the most compelling argument from Hebrews is from (Hebrews 10:26-31).

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

You can commit mortal sins and profane the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified (A sign of the true Christian) and outrage the Holy Spirit and be throne into the fire of hell. It can happen!

Well you have come as quite a surprise, apart from a passage or two we seem to be in agreement on the importance of grace. I am not opposed to Rome and certainly not interested in beating up on their doctrines. I have dealt with some far more serious errors over the years and while I find some of your views objectionable, I certainly don't have a moments hesitation extended the right hand of fellowship and invitation to further discussion.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Mark I am also enjoying this dialog. I hope I have been helpful in explaining the Catholic side in this discussion I hope you have not taken offense to anything I have said to you. I appreciate your brotherhood and friendship in Christ Jesus. I would love to get together with you and pray sometime. I really enjoy your knowledge of the scripture and devotion to Jesus our Lord. Amen! There is much that protestant and Catholic theologians agree upon in this issue of justification. I wish I had another 5 or 6 rounds to talk more. I know our final round is next. I truly learned a lot from you so far and I can say we agree on about 98% of everything. The other two percent is still being worked out by the Holy Spirit in the ecumenical movement. May be we can debate other topics soon in the future after this one is over. May the Lord be with you always my brother!


In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

 

[mark kennedy]

I was thinking about how to express what I have been trying to say to my opponent and I looked down and saw a wheel. It was some kind of a fastener but it reminded me of a cog and I hit on an idea for an analogy. I call these the wheels of wretchedness and righteousness and they are based on the Ten Commandments and the fruit of the Spirit explained in Galatians. Our earthly nature is still very much at odds with the new man Paul elaborated on so often and elegantly in his epistles. As we continue to explore this vital doctrine of justification I would like the reader and my opponent to consider that we wrestle not against flesh and blood in the sense of human adversaries, we are in conflict with our earthly nature. Only the Holy Spirit can change the direction of our hearts, minds and hands toward the things of God and the only means by which he can is grace alone, Christ alone and faith alone. Of course my opponent agrees with me whole heartedly with regards to grace and Christ:

Again I agree with you brother that my righteousness is a free gift from God by his grace alone that transforms me.

The problem stems from how we are justified but the doctrine must be understood in precise terminology. My learned brother explains that:

I think perhaps a big difference between us is our understanding here is the protestant understanding of justification by mere legal forensic imputation or the Catholic understanding of justification by a infused imputation if you will. In other words Christ just doesn’t give us a mere legal imputation or declaration of righteousness as a courtroom decree. In the Catholic understanding What God decrees actually happens.

That is called infused righteousness as opposed to imputed and he has quite correctly stated that it is a legal decree. God credits us with righteousness not based on our merit but calls those things that are not as if they were and like the creation he speaks light from darkness. We must be infused with the righteousness of God in Christ but justification must be immediate and perfect for us to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures are clear that you hear the Gospel, believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

I cannot hold to what I perceive as Luther’s misinterpretation of scripture on this issue. I hope that helps clarify the Catholic understanding.

It does and I hope you understand that the semantic separation of justification and sanctification does not mean that justification is ever separated from the sanctification process. Mixing Horse manure and ice cream will not hurt the manure but it will ruin the ice cream is how I have heard it expressed. We dare not mix the works of the Law with the righteousness that comes by faith. We must not drift into a Pelegian error that makes us the reason for our salvation, it is grace that saves us, it is grace that sanctifies us and grace that empowers us for service.

I still sin occasionally although I never have to it is by weakness and choice known as concupiscence yet I have the life of God within me making me his good child and strengthening me to do all things(Phil 4:13) including meriting eternal life(Rom 2:5-10, Gal 6:6-10). I can throw that life and grace away(Gal 5:3-4) by using my free will to commit mortal sin. Then I have a unction with God by the Sacrament of Confession and his Holy Spirit calling me to repentance.

There it is, the real issue that we are struggling with in this debate. First what we agree on:

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds (1 Prov 24:12 2 Job 34:11, Psa 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Matt 16:27, II Cor 5:10, I Pet 1:17, Rev 2:23, Rev 22:12) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, (1 Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, John 5:29, Rev 14:11, Rev 20:15)​

(Rom 2:5-10 with cross references)

At the baptism of Christ God the Father said as the Spirit descended as a dove, 'This is my Son, hear ye him'. This is what we are called to do and the works that follow are God's workmanship. There are two ways to go wrong, two ditches on the narrow path, legalism and licentiousness (making grace a license to sin), we must be careful not to drift too far to either extreme. God is at war with sin and sin is at war with God. God must be glorified by our deeds otherwise what are we saved for anyway? The problem is that we are only justified by our faith our deeds are utterly without merit. That is before Christ, then and only then can the sanctification process begin through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

This is where I get concerned:

I can throw that life and grace away(Gal 5:3-4)

Yes you can but not just by going back to your horse manure misdeeds but by returning to the beggarly elements of the law. It is by grace so you cannot return to the law that was meant to bring you to Christ. Paul was worried that you might think that keeping the law of Moses somehow made you righteous, Paul was worried sick about this and warned them not to do that to themselves.

I agree with you that grace works in us first before it can work through us. Amen! Catholics would also say that all our works are Christ grace! Amen! The issue of the Thief and the gentiles I think confuses you because maybe I was not clear in my presentation my good brother.

You have been clear and I assure you I am not confused. The thief on the cross and the Gentiles were saved simply by receiving Christ. Repentance in the New Testament is an interesting word, it essentially means a change of attitude. The thief mocked Christ early on but changed his attitude while the murderer never did. This my brother is normative salvation, the Gentiles heard the Gospel and received the Holy Spirit and as Peter said, 'all who believe are justified'. Paul elaborates on this saying that having believed you were marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise.

Catholics believe that justification/salvation/sanctification are not just a one time event in the Catholic understanding. They are all a life long process that have a initial beginning and final end all done by Gods grace alone. So Initial salvation is when I am saved initially. Then after that with Gods grace and help I must work out my own salvation in this life with Gods grace (Phil 2:12) then hopefully at the end of life I will remain in Gods grace and be saved/completely sanctified/justified. The thief on the cross had no way of getting off the cross and God knew the thief could not so God was merciful to him and gave him salvation before he died. He was a exception! God makes exceptions all the times when someone is impeded from one thing or another.

In Protestant theology in general and evangelical theology in particular justification is a one time event that initiates the sanctification process and the end result is salvation. That is all we are debating, it is justification by grace through faith that puts the Holy Spirit in our heart, the new heart, the new creation the new man and it is the righteousness of God in Christ. It comes to us as a seed and in the hearts of unbelievers it can be chocked out or never grow, in the heart of the believer it bears fruit to the glory of God.

I disagree with you politely again brother. What is being described in Matt 25 deals with the church as it is the end being foretold. Their probably is no better book then the book of Hebrews to show how one can fall from grace and loose his salvation by committing mortal sin. Hebrews speaks of believers and not unbelievers when referring to those who can fall away.

The book of Hebrews warns Jewish Christians that they cannot go back to the Levitical Law, just as Paul warns in Galatians. The children of Israel did not enter the Promised Land because of unbelief and the Holy Spirit swore in his wrath they will not enter my rest. We fall away in unbelief even if we are give intellectual ascent to the Gospel we can still fall away in unbelief. The people being warned to look to Calvary and not to Sinai. Surely you know this brother, surely you know that you life is hidden with Christ in God until the redemption of the purchase price.

Here are a few examples:

This passage is talking about holding fast to our faith. (Heb 3:6-7) this one speaks of being enlightened only to fall away into unbelief (Heb 6:4-6)

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”​

Notice the emphasis is on spurning the spirit of grace. It is grace that empowers us but only after it is imputed to us as a legal verdict. Then the sanctification process begins and while some fall away we have the confidence that we are the sons of God based on Christ alone, grace alone and faith alone.

You can commit mortal sins and profane the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified (A sign of the true Christian) and outrage the Holy Spirit and be throne into the fire of hell. It can happen!

I have to disagree, you do not get thrown out of Christ. Now the Holy Spirit can open the Gospel up to you so that you understand, that is you can be enlightened. The Holy Spirit can work with you and even in you to some extent but those who fall away are never truly born again.

Mark I am also enjoying this dialog. I hope I have been helpful in explaining the Catholic side in this discussion I hope you have not taken offense to anything I have said to you. I appreciate your brotherhood and friendship in Christ Jesus. I would love to get together with you and pray sometime. I really enjoy your knowledge of the scripture and devotion to Jesus our Lord. Amen! There is much that protestant and Catholic theologians agree upon in this issue of justification. I wish I had another 5 or 6 rounds to talk more. I know our final round is next. I truly learned a lot from you so far and I can say we agree on about 98% of everything. The other two percent is still being worked out by the Holy Spirit in the ecumenical movement. May be we can debate other topics soon in the future after this one is over. May the Lord be with you always my brother!

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

We wrestle with this foundational doctrine in our dialogues, in our own minds and even in our very souls. We strain to understand, we work to show ourselves approved, a workman that need not be ashamed. We wrestle with one another and against our earthly nature and sometimes even God himself to know that righteousness. I have so many things I want to share with you from the Scriptures and so much I want to learn from your study and prayerful pursuit of these timeless truths. It is going back to a works righteousness that Paul and the writer of Hebrews is warning against. That is why justification by faith alone is so vital.

Look at the wheel and consider the hub. Moses gave us a list of Ten Commandments which showed us both our sin and witnessed to the righteousness we so desperately lack. In our wretched state we covet just as Satan coveted the very throne of God and it is manifest in our deeds. Even in our fallen state we are still created in the image of God so there are still traces of love, joy peace...etc. The only way to get the wheels turning in the other direction is grace which is why this debate is so important.

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? (Galatians 3: 1-5)​

Paul says if anyone preaches another Gospel may he be anathema, that is to be eternally condemned. (Gal 1:6-10) He confronts Peter for his hypocrisy because in the company of Gentiles he embraced them as brothers but when his Jewish buddies came around he treated them as second class citizens. He did not spare the Galatians but tells them in no uncertain terms, it was not by works but by faith alone and believing what you heard that brought the work of the Spirit in their lives.

Like you I have enjoyed the exchange and pray God's blessings as you seek to do his good and perfect will. I pray you will continue to seek these things out and hope to be able to continue this discussion in a civil and substantive fashion. I have affirmed from the beginning and remain confident that God's grace is sufficient and that with regards to justification our merit counts for nothing, in fact it's worse then useless. I will not mock or make light of your religious convictions but instead offer you the right hand of fellowship as we struggle with this essential doctrine of our faith.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Athanasias]

Part I of my Closing statement

Hello once again and Peace be with you Mark. Well we have come to the end of this wonderful debate. I would like to express my apologies for being so late on responding to you. I am a full time student (5 classes in College this semester) and its crunch time for school. I have thoroughly enjoyed our dialog. It is refreshing to meet a good God fearing protestant Christian brother such as yourself who is a ample apologist and yet not anti-Catholic. God bless you. Perhaps we can dialog again on other subjects in the future. It has been a pleasure. My final statement will come in two parts but not going over 5000 words I promise. The first part will deal with a summary of the whole of the debate and my final concluding statements for whoever else is reading this debate. The second part with deal directly to your objections. May God bless us both.

Part I Closing statement

Well Folks we have come to the end of this debate. I hope all Christians who read this Catholic and Protestant learned something about the Catholic biblical and historical position on salvation and justification. Allow me to summarize a few points that I feel are the strongest proof of the Catholic arguments that we have gone over.

Point 1). Catholics do teach that we are justified by Gods grace alone(Eph 2:3-9).

Point 2) We also teach that Christ alone is our savior and not ourselves, in other words we do not believe in Pelagianism or even semi-Pelagiansism( two early heresies that the Catholic Church condemned centuries ago). Catholics also “can” teach that a man is justified by faith alone in a “qualified sense” according to Trent and Catholic theology. ***(See my first post on this for clarification on this)***.

Point 3) A Catholic is never justified by mere intellectual assent alone which James 2 mentions but rather he is justified by a faith that works itself out in love or charity as St. Paul spoke of (Gal 5:6) and as Catholic documents such as the Catechism show.

Point 4). God is the one who washes away our sin and gives us the initial grace of justification and salvation in baptism( 1 Peter 3:19-21, 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5-7, Act 22:16, Eph 5:26-28) and there is nothing we can do to earn this justification it is a free gift from God (Rom 6). In fact Infant baptism shows this clearly. What could a infant possibly do to earn salvation? Nothing! It is Gods free gift of grace and salvation, justification, and sanctification to him.

Point 5) By Regenerating us God not only declares us clean in a courtroom setting but in doing that he actually makes us new creations(Gal 6:15) full of his Holy Spirit. God makes us his real children(1 Jn 3:1). We then become real partakers of his divine nature( 1 Pet 1:4, Heb 6:4) and made good (Acts 11:24). Therefore Catholics also teach that the works of the Mosiac law cannot save you(Gal 5:6, Gal:6:15, Rom 3:28). No one is under the Law of Moses anymore, We are under the law of Christ(Gal 6:2) which is the law of love(Gal 5:6). More importantly we are under the Grace of Christ(Eph 2) which enables us to keep his law. The Catholic Church teaches this too!

Point 6). Because we have become regenerated Children of God and partakers of his Divine Nature and have his life giving grace flowing though us as his free gift, we then can do acts that please God as scripture shows (1 Thess 4:1, Col 1:10). Sometimes God will Choose to reward these acts that please him(Matt 6:1-4). The term **Merit** when applied to humans simply speaks about rewards we receive from God in Catholic theology and not about us earning anything due to our own power!!!! Do not forget that Catholics use the term Merit to refer to “Christ strict merit” and “Human merit” which are two different types of merit. Please see my first post to understand better!!!

Point 7). Scripture also shows us that we can do acts that please God(done out of a living faith by his Grace alone) sometimes he will choose to reward our acts with Eternal life ( Rom 2:5-10. Gal 6:6-10, Matt 25:31-46. Jn 5:28-29, Matt 16:27, Col 3: 23).

Point 8). God choose to reward our works not because of anything we can boast about(Rom 4:1-2) like Paul speaks of or because of our greatness but because of his saving grace alone working in us making our faith a saving active faith and his promise to us in scripture. St, Augustine would say that when God rewards us with eternal life he is simply rewarding his own handi-work in us.

Point 9). The entire early church for the first 1500 years taught the Catholic concept that comes from the apostles. Read the Church fathers on the concept of Merit and reward.

Here is a small example: http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp


It was Martin Luther himself that changed the understanding.

Point 10). The key to understanding the Catholic view of justification is simple. Scripture shows us that apart from Christ we can do nothing(Jn 15:5) but with the grace of Christ we can do all things(Phil 4:13), which includes meriting eternal life. For it is the grace of Christ within us that enables us to work for God’s pleasure(Phil 2:12-13) and He has promised to reward our good works us with eternal life if we are faithfully obedient to Him(Matt 16:27)

I hope that everyone here enjoyed our debate God bless you all!

 

[Athanasias]

Part II of my closing statement

Mark you said:

I

It does and I hope you understand that the semantic separation of justification and sanctification does not mean that justification is ever separated from the sanctification process. Mixing Horse manure and ice cream will not hurt the manure but it will ruin the ice cream is how I have heard it expressed. We dare not mix the works of the Law with the righteousness that comes by faith. We must not drift into a Pelegian error that makes us the reason for our salvation, it is grace that saves us, it is grace that sanctifies us and grace that empowers us for service.

I, and the Catholics agree with much what you said here. First of all we do NOT teach pelagainism. The Catholic does not teach that we are the cause of our own salvation. Christ and his grace and his work on the cross is. The Catholic Church formally condemned the pelagian and semi-pelagian heresies. Catholics also do not believe in salvation by keeping the works of the law. Christ fulfilled the law of Moses(Matt 5:17). We are under Christ law(Gal 6:2) now and his Grace(Eph 2) which is the law Not of mosaic works or of the law of Faith alone, but the law of a faith WORKING through LOVE(Gal 5:6) a active faith. This is what the Catholic church teaches and has taught for 2000 years since Jesus founded her. In justifying us Christ also sanctifies us as his free gift to us and this is what happens at our Baptism into him(1 Cor 6:11, Eph 5:26-27, Titus 3:5-7).

I

The problem is that we are only justified by our faith our deeds are utterly without merit. That is before Christ, then and only then can the sanctification process begin through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

This is where I get concerned.

Once again I cannot see how a protestant can understand this when scripture is so clear that our good works wrought by God’s grace through a living faith can and do have merit. Lets look closely at two examples of this;

“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" ( Rom 2:5-8).

Remember that “Merit” in our understanding means receiving a reward based on Gods grace and promise to us in scripture and not because we strictly earned or deserved anything.

Now notice what Romans 2 does Not say. It does NOT say “For God will render to every man according to his faith alone”. It says according to his WORKS that God will reward a man with ETERNAL LIFE. The same is shown in Gal 6:6-10 , Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5:28-29, Matt 16:27, and Col 3:23. So the reward of eternal life is a gift from God that he renders to a man based upon his living faith. A Mans deeds do then have merit if they are in Christ and his grace according to sacred scripture(Phil 2:12-13). For God will judge everyone according to his deeds(1 Peter 1;17).
:

I

Yes you can but not just by going back to your horse manure misdeeds but by returning to the beggarly elements of the law. It is by grace so you cannot return to the law that was meant to bring you to Christ. Paul was worried that you might think that keeping the law of Moses somehow made you righteous, Paul was worried sick about this and warned them not to do that to themselves.

I agree that Paul spoke out against the Judiazers heresy. You can fall from Grace by going back to the works of the law which makes Christ Cross meaningless. However one can also fall by committing mortal sin (1 Jn 5:16-17). St. Paul expresses in two of his letters several sins (such as Drunkenness and fornication etc) that people were falling into that they must stay away from or they will not enter heaven(1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21). Jesus himself said it best in Matt 5:27-30 when he tell us that if we lust we can be thrown into hell. Notice in this passage that Jesus does NOT say “If your hand causes you to sin do not worry because you have faith in me and can never fall”. But rather He DOES say “If your Hand causes you to sin cut if off for it is better to enter heaven with one hand then hell with two.(*My abbreviation)*” it can happen you can fall from salvation an be cut off from God (Rom 11:22).

Perhaps the best to describe this is our first Pope St. Peter when he says ;

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[a]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."(2 Peter 2:20-22).

It can happen you can loose your salvation with God by falling back to your manure according to Pope St. Peter!!

The thief on the cross and the Gentiles were saved simply by receiving Christ. Repentance in the New Testament is an interesting word, it essentially means a change of attitude…… This my brother is normative salvation, the Gentiles heard the Gospel and received the Holy Spirit and as Peter said, 'all who believe are justified'. Paul elaborates on this saying that having believed you were marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise.

Yes I agree with you as the Catholic church would. I also see there is also much more scripture the protestant needs to look at. We need to see the whole of sacred scripture and how all the passages in the bible speak about salvation to get the normative meaning. Having faith and repenting saves us(Rom 10:9) But being baptized also saves us(1 Peter 3;19-21, Titus 3:5-7, Mark 16;16, Jn 3:3-5) and of course our grace given God ordained obedience or works done in grace in a living faith also justifies us (James 2:24, Rom 2:5-10 Gal 6:6-10, Matt 16:27, Matt 25:31-46). So there are many things that save us in scripture. We need to look to the whole of scripture to see what the normative means of grace and salvation are. Baptism clearly fulfills circumcsion(Col 2:11-13) and is the normative initial means for salvation(Titus 3:5-7, 1 Peter 3:19-21). Now God can give someone the grace of justification (we call this baptism of desire) without actually receiving the sacrament of baptism if the person is intent on conversion and repents and is impeded from receiving baptism and living a long life of obedience to God. This is a deathbed conversion. God does this for those who are impeded and cannot receive sacramental baptism. God can work his grace outside the sacraments but scripturally the sacraments are God’s free gifts to us and the normative means to grace and salvation.

I

In Protestant theology in general and evangelical theology in particular justification is a one time event that initiates the sanctification process and the end result is salvation. That is all we are debating, it is justification by grace through faith that puts the Holy Spirit in our heart, the new heart, the new creation the new man and it is the righteousness of God in Christ. It comes to us as a seed and in the hearts of unbelievers it can be chocked out or never grow, in the heart of the believer it bears fruit to the glory of God. .

Justification, Salvation, and Sanctification are biblically a process. At baptism Christ washes away our sins (Acts 22:16, Act 2:38-39, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Romans 6:1-12), saves us and regenerates us(1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-7), sanctifies and justifies us(1 Cor 6:11, Eph 5:26-27) and makes us new creations in Christ for we put on Christ in baptism(Gal 3:27) are made a partaker of his divine nature.(2 Peter 1:4). After our baptism we must continue to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling(Phil 2:12-13) and we must persevere in obedience to Christ(Rom 2:5-9). Abraham was justified by his faith in Gen 15:6 but Scripture also indicates that Abraham was justified by his works in when he offered his Son Isaac on the Alter(James 2:21-22). So He was justified on once sense earlier in Genesis by his faith and then again he was justified in another sense later on in Genesis. It was both his faith and works that justified him according to James. This of course was speaking of a true Living faith that produced acts of love(Gal 5:6) yet it still shows that justification is not just a one time event. One can continued to be justified just like Abraham even after initially receiving justification. Again in regards to salvation one can say I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8) but I also can say I am currently being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I hope that when I die I will be saved and see final glory ((Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

I

I have to disagree, you do not get thrown out of Christ. Now the Holy Spirit can open the Gospel up to you so that you understand, that is you can be enlightened. The Holy Spirit can work with you and even in you to some extent but those who fall away are never truly born again.

The bible disagrees with this understanding. In Hebrews person who fell away were partakers of the Holy Spirit (Heb 6:4) and sanctified by Christ blood((Hebrews 10:29) yet they fell away. Jesus himself warns that those Christians who persist in Lust will never enter the kingdom of God (Matt 5:27-30). Jesus never says If your hand causes you to sin then you were never truly born again anyway! Even St Paul whom I hope you think was born again even he did not know for sure if he was going to make it to heaven as he had to pommel his body and subdue it lest he be disqualified( 1 Cor 9:24-27). One must remain in gods kindness otherwise he can be cut off from salvation(Rom 11:22). St Peter speaks powerfully on this in 2 Peter 2:20-22. Pope St. Peter speak of those who fall away after receiving the knowledge of truth and end up wallowing in the mire and worse off then when they were initially saved. The word for knowledge in Greek here denotes a full experiential knowledge. In other words you can fully experience Christ and his salvation and be washed of your sins yet fall back into your sins and it is worse off then when you began.


Mark it has been awesome debating with you. I appreciate your biblical knowledge and the Spirit in which you debate. I have learned a lot. I hope other have also from this debate. I look forward to doing another one with you sometime. I would also welcome you as a fellow brother in Christ and I would love to pray with you sometime. May God bless you always my good friend. May the peace of our Lord be with you!

In Chris the King through Mary the Queen Mother,

Athanasais

WWMD-What would Mary do?(See Lk 1:38)