Is everything "meaningless" without God?

[Chriliman]

Assume God exists and says human meaning is "x".

What does that mean?

It means humans mean "x", even before any human existed.

So the meaning we find as humans was meant to be there for us as individuals. There's a purpose that we ourselves did not put in place to begin with.

 

[Chany]

It means humans mean "x", even before any human existed.

So the meaning we find as humans was meant to be there for us as individuals. There's a purpose that we ourselves did not put in place to begin with.

Why should I care? Let's say that I choose meaning "y" instead of "x". What then?

 

[Tinker Grey]

You're still looking for ultimate meaning. There is none. There is only meaning to the individual, the subject. Why should anyone expect meaning to be the same for all subjects?

You say there is no ultimate meaning as if you know that to be fact. How do you know that to be fact?

Is it a fact? Or are you just claiming it's a fact because that's what you believe to be true?

Answer my question first: Why should anyone expect meaning to be the same for all subjects?

 

[Chriliman]

Why should I care? Let's say that I choose meaning "y" instead of "x". What then?

You should care because you're an honest person who wants to know the truth.

 

[Chriliman]

Answer my question first: Why should anyone expect meaning to be the same for all subjects?

Because if all subjects can agree on the true meaning, then there can be true peace among all subjects.

 

[Chany]

You should care because you're an honest person who wants to know the truth.

Let me rephrase it:

God declares my purpose to be "x".

I declare my purpose to be "y".

Why is "x" true?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Because if all subjects can agree on the true meaning, then there can be true peace among all subjects.

My wife means something to me. She better not have the same meaning to my neighbor.

 

[Chriliman]

Let me rephrase it:

God declares my purpose to be "x".

I declare my purpose to be "y".

Why is "x" true?

It's either because God is always right or because you're always right.

If you're not always right then the former is reasonable to assume.

 

[Chriliman]

My wife means something to me. She better not have the same meaning to my neighbor.

I agree, but I'm not saying your wife is the true meaning to life for everyone in general.

There could be a true meaning in which everyone could agree is the true meaning and in doing so, we'd all live peacefully together. That's the point.

 

[Freodin]

It's either because God is always right or because you're always right.

If you're not always right then the former is reasonable to assume.

False dichotomy: in this case, both could be right.

Consider: if I say that X means Y to me... what would it mean for this to be wrong?

 

[Chriliman]

False dichotomy: in this case, both could be right.

True, both could be right at any given time, but both cannot always be right at all times, which is what I said because the word "always" implies all time, so not a false dichotomy.

I've been very wrong in the past, so I know I'm not God.

God would never have known Himself to be wrong in anything, ever.

 

[Freodin]

I agree, but I'm not saying your wife is the true meaning to life for everyone in general.

There could be a true meaning in which everyone could agree is the true meaning and in doing so, we'd all live peacefully together. That's the point.

Faulty argumentation from desired consequence. Even if "everyone" agreed on the "true meaning", this would not automatically lead to "living peacefully together". And even if we were to agree that "living peacefully together" would be a desirable goal, that doesn't automatically mean that there would have to be a "true meaning".

 

[Freodin]

True, both could be right at any given time, but both cannot always be right at all times, which is what I said because the word "always" implies all time, so not a false dichotomy.

I've been very wrong in the past, so I know I'm not God.

God would never have known Himself to be wrong in anything, ever.

All times in not necessary. We are not talking about "all times"... just about meaning.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Consider: if I say that X means Y to me... what would it mean for this to be wrong?

IF ("IF") you were in front of a firing squad,
and strictly told to say nothing, that if you opened your mouth to speak , and you said anything, you would be shot;
then you said "x mea.... " and died,

would that make this wrong ?

 

[Freodin]

IF ("IF") you were in front of a firing squad,
and strictly told to say nothing, that if you opened your mouth to speak , and you said anything, you would be shot;
then you said "x mea.... " and died,

would that make this wrong ?

I am sure you have some deep and insightful thought behind this little tidbid... but I just cannot figure it out.

What does "right" and "wrong" even mean when it comes to meaning? Perhaps you simply didn't understand my question?

When I say, "my wife means something to me"... what would it mean to be "wrong" here? I say it... but it is wrong: my wife doesn't mean something to me? My wife means something other than I said to me?

Don't you see how stupid such an approach is... regardless of how many firing squads you set up for me?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am sure you have some deep and insightful thought behind this little tidbid... but I just cannot figure it out......

Nothing deep at all.
Just wondering if that was one possible answer to your question.>>

Consider: if I say that X means Y to me... what would it mean for this to be wrong?

That's why I asked "Would that scenario I proposed make this wrong?"

I hadn't yet read the surrounding posts yet when I posted my question, but they seem to help bring out the reason for your question, "in context" you might say.

"Right and wrong" of a statement might not depend on the statement at all, if death results from making the statement.

 

[Freodin]

Nothing deep at all.
Just wondering if that was one possible answer to your question.>>

Consider: if I say that X means Y to me... what would it mean for this to be wrong?

That's why I asked "Would that scenario I proposed make this wrong?"

I hadn't yet read the surrounding posts yet when I posted my question, but they seem to help bring out the reason for your question, "in context" you might say.

"Right and wrong" of a statement might not depend on the statement at all, if death results from making the statement.

That would only describe the potential consequence of making the statement, not the truth of the statement.

But that wasn't what I was asking for at all. Take it literally... what does it mean for a statement of "meaning" (especially subjective meaning) to be wrong?

I don't drink Cola. At all. To me, Cola tastes like thinned battery acid.
Now one (like Chriliman) could claim the existence of a "universal taste", stating: "No, Cola does not taste like battery acid."

But such a "universal taste" nonwithstanding... it still does taste like battery acid to me. So how could anybody say: "No, this is false. Cola does not taste like battery acid TO YOU"?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Okay, that's not working out - let's try this.

Life and Death. The child is hiding in the attic.
The gestapo comes.
They ask if there is any child in the house.

If everyone stays quiet, and the gestapo doesn't find the child,
the child lives another day.

If anyone makes a sound, or glances upward at the attic, or does anything else
that alerts the gestapo to the child's location,
and the gestapo finds the child, the child gets taken, and dies at the hand of the gestapo.

This happened for real. A true story. Repeated many times not so long ago.
(not just in Germany, btw).

"everything is meaningless" if the child is captured and executed.

Nothing said or done or not said or not done means anything.

 

[Freodin]

Okay, that's not working out - let's try this.

Life and Death. The child is hiding in the attic.
The gestapo comes.
They ask if there is any child in the house.

If everyone stays quiet, and the gestapo doesn't find the child,
the child lives another day.

If anyone makes a sound, or glances upward at the attic, or does anything else
that alerts the gestapo to the child's location,
and the gestapo finds the child, the child gets taken, and dies at the hand of the gestapo.

This happened for real. A true story. Repeated many times not so long ago.
(not just in Germany, btw).

"everything is meaningless" if the child is captured and executed.

Nothing said or done or not said or not done means anything.

Doesn't work either.

"everything is meaningless" if the child is captured and executed.

Then everything is meaningless. The child was captured and executed. This happened for real. A true story. And I am German, I know.

But somehow there is still meaning. How can that be, if the child, and thousands of children, were captured and executed?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But somehow there is still meaning. How can that be, if the child, and thousands of children, were captured and executed?

This is what we want to find out .....

Do enough people truthfully care ? Does it matter how many people care ?