Immaculate Conception Paradox.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Okay, but what can we make of the Biblical information telling us that all men are born in sin and that they sin from birth, if it's not that Original Sin is really sin?

That's not saying to us that physical losses of the kind that Adam and Eve suffered are passed on to us or that we have an inclination towards committing sin later in life.

When you are born into a fallen world, that is what happens

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You do...NO you dont....yes you do!

This is nothing but a teenage discussion!

You have rejected the Bible and Seed Covenant teaching from the Bible.

YOosee my friend, The Abrahamic covenant in Genesis, lays the groundwork for the nation of Israel and the coming Messiah, through whom God would bless all the nations of the world. The Mosaic covenant continues God’s dealings with the nation of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, calling them to reflect the glory of their Lord to the nations around them. The covenant made with King David pointed ahead of Israel to the coming Messiah, the one who would rule perfectly on David’s throne forever. It was not until Jesus came as Israel’s Messiah, however, that the covenants with man were kept perfectly and fulfilled. Jesus came to ratify the new covenant, promised in the Law and the Prophets, bringing along with it the eschatological blessings promised to God’s people.

But YOU have rejected that SEED Covenant !!!!

There is nothing else we need to discuss.

When YOU miss that one.....you will miss everything else.

Well no, I reject YOUR interpretation and definition of it...

 

[Major1]

Well we are all born into a fallen world, right...??

In Romans 5 :13-14 Paul explains how he reached his conclusion:
“Sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, sin reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come”.

People before Moses sinned, breaking unwritten laws. But Paul is connecting their sin with Adam. The people were counted as sinners not only because of their own sins, but also because of what Adam did. Adam was a pattern of a future man — Jesus.

Vs. 15..........
“But the gift of God is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!”.

The grace of Christ is a total reversal of the sin of Adam. Everyone died because of Adam’s transgression, but because of Christ, everyone can live. Everyone was judged guilty because of Adam’s sin; everyone can be judged righteous through faith in Christ.

 

[Major1]

Well no, I reject YOUR interpretation and definition of it...

I do not have an interpretation.

I do have an understanding by reading and doing the study.

If you reject it.....it is no problem for me what so ever my friend!

 

[Major1]

When you are born into a fallen world, that is what happens

What happens is that because we are born with a sin nature we sin.

We DO NOT sin because we are born into a sin world.

We all sinned when Adam sinned, because his sin counted for all his descendants. Because of what he did, we all sin and die. And since what Adam did affected everyone, it should be no surprise that what Christ (our Creator) did could also affect everyone.

 

[Albion]

When you are born into a fallen world, that is what happens

Uh, no. It's not. The Scriptural testimony I've asked you about says that men are born in sin, not that it's a "fallen world" so they're going to be prone to sin as they go through life.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

In Romans 5 :13-14 Paul explains how he reached his conclusion:
“Sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, sin reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come”.

People before Moses sinned, breaking unwritten laws. But Paul is connecting their sin with Adam. The people were counted as sinners not only because of their own sins, but also because of what Adam did. Adam was a pattern of a future man — Jesus.

Vs. 15..........
“But the gift of God is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!”.

The grace of Christ is a total reversal of the sin of Adam. Everyone died because of Adam’s transgression, but because of Christ, everyone can live. Everyone was judged guilty because of Adam’s sin; everyone can be judged righteous through faith in Christ.

But Adam DID sin...and broke the law...you shall not eat...he ate, he sinned...he was removed from Gan Eden and death entered and it became a fallen world...simple. Now we all are born into the fallen world and suffer death as a consequence of it...simple.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What happens is that because we are born with a sin nature we sin.

We DO NOT sin because we are born into a sin world.

We all sinned when Adam sinned, because his sin counted for all his descendants. Because of what he did, we all sin and die. And since what Adam did affected everyone, it should be no surprise that what Christ (our Creator) did could also affect everyone.

No we do not...I was not in Gan Eden, I did not eat of the fruit...but now when I am born into the fallen world, I can die...you are saying 2 different things and trying to link them.

We all sinned when Adam sinned, because his sin counted for all his descendants. Because of what he did, we all sin and die. And since what Adam did affected everyone, it should be no surprise that what Christ (our Creator) did could also affect everyone.


Yes, what Adam did brought about death (the consequence) to everyone and now life through the death and resurrection of Yeshua.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Uh, no. It's not. The Scriptural testimony I've asked you about says that men are born in sin, not that it's a "fallen world" so they're going to be prone to sin as they go through life.

Um yes it is. Everyone is born into a fallen sinful world...and because of it, death is the consequence...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I do not have an interpretation.

I do have an understanding by reading and doing the study.

If you reject it.....it is no problem for me what so ever my friend!

Yes and your interpretation and understanding are the problems...I reject it because it is false...

 

[Albion]

Um yes it is. Everyone is born into a fallen sinful world...and because of it, death is the consequence...

You've stated your position at least three different times so far without answering the question I asked about the Bible giving us a different explanation.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You've stated your position at least three different times so far without answering the question I asked.

I HAVE answered it multiple times...you just do not want to accept it...

 

[Albion]

I HAVE answered it multiple times...you just do not want to accept it...

You've given us YOUR preferred interpretation. I asked how we are to understand the Bible's statements if that theory were actually correct.

By now, I have concluded that there won't be an answer to that mystery coming back, and that's something that could have been said right at the beginning.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You've given us YOUR preferred interpretation. I asked how we are to understand the Bible's statements if that theory were actually correct.

By now, I have concluded that there won't be an answer to that mystery coming back, and that's something that could have been said right at the beginning.

Was the IC an explanation for the paradox that Yeshua's death creates? If Yeshua was a man and from Adam then Adam's sin would be in him as you all say. He would be guilty of Adam's sin as you claim we all are.

 

[Albion]

Was the IC an explanation for the paradox that Yeshua's death creates? If Yeshua was a man and from Adam then Adam's sin would be in him as you all say..

We have not said that. I haven't said anything like that, anyway.

Jesus was God. God cannot know sin. In all other ways, however, Jesus was possessed of a complete human nature, including being capable of experiencing temptation. But not sin because that would be impossible in his case and only in his case.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We have not said that. I haven't said anything like that, anyway.

Jesus was God. God cannot know sin. In all other ways, however, Jesus was possessed of a complete human nature, including being capable of experiencing temptation. But not sin because that would be impossible in his case and only in his case.

You don't need to, that is the end result of that type of thinking. God can't die either, right? Well no, you can't say that because He would be born with ORIGINAL SIN...you all said it! He was guilty and had inside him ORIGINAL SIN!

 

[Albion]

You don't need to, that is the end result of that type of thinking.

No, that isn't the "end result." But, by the way, what do you imagine that the standard, orthodox, and historic belief of Christianity is when you say "that kind of thinking?"

God can't die either, right?

That's right.

Well no, you can't say that because He would be born with ORIGINAL SIN...you all said it! He was guilty and had inside him ORIGINAL SIN!

I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite and gave you the reason why that is.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, that isn't the "end result." But, by the way, what do you imagine that the standard, orthodox, and historic belief of Christianity is when you say "that kind of thinking?"

I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite and gave you the reason why that is.

Traditional is either the Orthodox view or the Original Sin view. Well no...you either agree with what i said or you agree with the doctrine of original sin. Which is it? You will need the IC to explain away original sin...see it all starts with that and then other things need to be made up to explain that paradox...

 

[concretecamper]

Revelation 12:1-2.........
"And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

I dont see anything here that says the Woman was in physical pain. "Pained to be delivered" DOES NOT mean "delivered with physical pain".

It pains me to see people try to mislead others. And by the way, I'm not in physical PAIN

 

[prodromos]

Then by using your own words we can then say that the Immaculate Conception is a man made doctrine.........along with Purgatory, the Assumption of Mary, prayers to the saints and Apostolic sucession.

Those are your words, not mine. They are your standards, not mine.