Immaculate Conception Paradox.

[Major1]

Only God is without sin.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Mary has died.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23)

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

If May was sinless, why has she died. If death is by sin (Romans 5:12) and she died, what does that tell you? Mary was no better than the rest of us and needed salvation as much as everyone else.

Jesus said to Mary.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:4)

This is not recorded in scripture for nothing, Jesus did not regard Mary as holy, because she was not! Worshiping, or praying to Mary is idolatry!

That is correct!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

My first priest's wife (EO we have married priests) was in labor with their fourth child and gave birth when they were both sleeping. He woke up to hear her saying, "Uh father, go get the nurse! I think the baby's out!" She had slept through giving birth to their daughter.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I guess that we are not speaking to each other in English.

We all suffer from Original Sin.

Romans 5:12-14.........
" Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."

I have read it all. It may be helpful how YOU define "original sin"...do you use the Roman Catholic definition? Is everyone GUILTY of Adam's sin? So are we all guilty of the "original sin" because we all die or just suffer the consequences because death was brought into the world and we all also sin. I agree with option 2.

 

[Major1]

I have read it all. It may be helpful how YOU define "original sin"...do you use the Roman Catholic definition? Is everyone GUILTY of Adam's sin? So are we all guilty of the "original sin" because we all die or just suffer the consequences because death was brought into the world and we all also sin. I agree with option 2.

NO sir. I always use the BIBLE definition!

Original sin is defined as “the moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin, resulting in a sinful disposition manifesting itself in habitually sinful behavior.” The doctrine of original sin focuses particularly on its effect on our internal nature and our standing before God.

Romans 5, says.......
“As by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; so death came upon all men.”

And then it adds “For all have sinned…” and we get that elsewhere, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” and so forth.

So, original sin? That’s what it did. It brought a separation between Adam and Eve and God, which meant that the same separation was true of all of their descendants and all of their descendants are sinners.

There are actually 3 theological perspectives on Original sin and they are:

Pelagianism:
This view says that Adam’s sin had no effect upon the souls of his descendants other than that he provided a sinful example.

Arminianism:
Arminians believe Adam’s original sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a corrupt, sinful nature, which causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally. According to this view, man cannot stop sinning on his own.

Calvinism:
The Calvinistic doctrine of original sin states that Adam’s sin has resulted not only in our having a sin nature, but also in our incurring guilt before God for which we deserve punishment. Being conceived with original sin upon us results in our inheriting a sin nature so wicked that Jeremiah describes the human heart as “deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Not only was Adam found guilty because he sinned, but his sin was imputed to us, making us guilty and deserving of his punishment (death) as well.

There are two views as to why Adam’s sin should be imputed to us.
#1.
The human race was within Adam in seed form; thus, when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later.

#2
The other main view is that Adam served as our representative, and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well. That is called "Federal Headship".

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

NO sir. I always use the BIBLE definition!

Original sin is defined as “the moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin, resulting in a sinful disposition manifesting itself in habitually sinful behavior.” The doctrine of original sin focuses particularly on its effect on our internal nature and our standing before God.

So, original sin? That’s what it did. It brought a separation between Adam and Eve and God, which meant that the same separation was true of all of their descendants and all of their descendants are sinners.

There are actually 3 theological perspectives on Original sin and they are:

Pelagianism:
This view says that Adam’s sin had no effect upon the souls of his descendants other than that he provided a sinful example.

Arminianism:
Arminians believe Adam’s original sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a corrupt, sinful nature, which causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally. According to this view, man cannot stop sinning on his own.

Calvinism:
The Calvinistic doctrine of original sin states that Adam’s sin has resulted not only in our having a sin nature, but also in our incurring guilt before God for which we deserve punishment. Being conceived with original sin upon us results in our inheriting a sin nature so wicked that Jeremiah describes the human heart as “deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Not only was Adam found guilty because he sinned, but his sin was imputed to us, making us guilty and deserving of his punishment (death) as well.

There are two views as to why Adam’s sin should be imputed to us.
#1.
The human race was within Adam in seed form; thus, when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later.

#2
The other main view is that Adam served as our representative, and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well. That is called "Federal Headship".

So you DO keep to the RCC doctrine...Your #2. So we disagree...i was not in the garden and that sin was not mine. I only suffer the consequence of that sin that brought death to the world that condemns me for MY sin. All of their offspring were born into a fallen world.

 

[Major1]

So you DO keep to the RCC doctrine...Your #2. So we disagree...i was not in the garden and that sin was not mine. I only suffer the consequence of that sin that brought death to the world that condemns me for MY sin. All of their offspring were born into a fallen world.

You have a really good way of twisting words to make them acceptable to your understanding. I suggest you read the Bible more and spend less time on the internet forums!

YOU were actually in the Garden. YOU and me were in Adams seed.
When he sinned we sinned!

Please....Please take the time to do the work and grasp the meaning of Federal Headship!

We...all humanity was in Adams seed!!! Scripture is clear that every human being is descended from Adam and Eve. The only way that is not possible is that YOU believe in Evolution!

Romans 5:12 ......
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned".

1 Corth 15:22........
"For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

What YOU are trying to do is validate the RCC teaching that Mary was sinless through the Immaculate Conception and doing so at the expence of ignoring and rejecting the word of God.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You have a really good way of twisting words to make them acceptable to your understanding. I suggest you read the Bible more and spend less time on the internet forums!

YOU were actually in the Garden. YOU and me were in Adams seed.
When he sinned we sinned!

Please....Please take the time to do the work and grasp the meaning of Federal Headship!

We...all humanity was in Adams seed!!! Scripture is clear that every human being is descended from Adam and Eve. The only way that is not possible is that YOU believe in Evolution!

Romans 5:12 ......
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned".

1 Corth 15:22........
"For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

What YOU are trying to do is validate the RCC teaching that Mary was sinless through the Immaculate Conception and doing so at the expence of ignoring and rejecting the word of God.

I read it just fine. Seed does not make a person. So no I was not in the garden. Romans does not say what you are saying. We all die because death was brought into the world and we are born into it and die because we too sin. I don't believe in the IC of Mary and I also do not believe in their doctrine of original sin...

 

[prodromos]

There are two views as to why Adam’s sin should be imputed to us.
#1.
The human race was within Adam in seed form; thus, when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later.

#2
The other main view is that Adam served as our representative, and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well. That is called "Federal Headship".

Since "Federal Headship" can be found nowhere in the Scriptures, according to the standards you use for other doctrine, we can safely reject it as a man made doctrine.

 

[Major1]

Since "Federal Headship" can be found nowhere in the Scriptures, according to the standards you use for other doctrine, we can safely reject it as a man made doctrine.

Then by using your own words we can then say that the Immaculate Conception is a man made doctrine.........along with Purgatory, the Assumption of Mary, prayers to the saints and Apostolic sucession.

We can also then, by your own words reject the Trinity as well.

However.....if you would have read my post I did not say that Federal Headsip is in the Bible.

Now to help you I will clearly and simply say that Federal headship is not explicitly stated in the Bible; it is an interpretive tool and not a biblical truth. We do know that death began with Adam's sin and that the origin of the separation between people and God can be traced back to Adam's fatal choice.

 

[Major1]

I read it just fine. Seed does not make a person. So no I was not in the garden. Romans does not say what you are saying. We all die because death was brought into the world and we are born into it and die because we too sin. I don't believe in the IC of Mary and I also do not believe in their doctrine of original sin...

I have no desire to argue the point with you. All I can say is that The covenant being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity; all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression.

By your own words then, I can see that since you were NOT THERE with Abraham then you also do not accept the "Abrahamic Seed Covenant" as well.

If you will do the Bible study you will then see that you have a real problem
with your own choices. Study the "Abrahamic Seed Covenant" and then get back to me.

If not, Then there is really nothing else to say is there.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have no desire to argue the point with you. All I can say is that The covenant being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity; all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression.

By your own words then, I can see that since you were NOT THERE with Abraham then you also do not accept the "Abrahamic Seed Covenant" as well.

If you will do the Bible study you will then see that you have a real problem
with your own choices. Study the "Abrahamic Seed Covenant" and then get back to me.

If not, Then there is really nothing else to say is there.

You have no desire because you can't. I already explained to you we did not sin "in him" but suffer the consequences of the fall...and one has nothing to do with the other...it is YOUR scenario that requires you to fix the problem...I don't have the problem that needs explaining...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Then by using your own words we can then say that the Immaculate Conception is a man made doctrine.........along with Purgatory, the Assumption of Mary, prayers to the saints and Apostolic sucession.

We can also then, by your own words reject the Trinity as well.

However.....if you would have read my post I did not say that Federal Headsip is in the Bible.

Now to help you I will clearly and simply say that Federal headship is not explicitly stated in the Bible; it is an interpretive tool and not a biblical truth. We do know that death began with Adam's sin and that the origin of the separation between people and God can be traced back to Adam's fatal choice.

Why would we reject the Trinity, it is biblical, right at His baptism. SMH

 

[Albion]

You have no desire because you can't. I already explained to you we did not sin "in him" but suffer the consequences of the fall.

What, then, should we make of the Bible verses that say man is born in sin and is sinful from birth?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What, then, should we make of the Bible verses that say man is born in sin and is sinful from birth?

Well we are all born into a fallen world, right...??

 

[Major1]

Why would we reject the Trinity, it is biblical, right at His baptism. SMH

Because the person I was speaking to said that the Words "FEDERAL HEADSIP" is not in the Bible.

To him I replied......."so then by your logic, we should not accept the TRINITY because that word is not found in the Bible either.

 

[Major1]

You have no desire because you can't. I already explained to you we did not sin "in him" but suffer the consequences of the fall...and one has nothing to do with the other...it is YOUR scenario that requires you to fix the problem...I don't have the problem that needs explaining...

You do...NO you dont....yes you do!

This is nothing but a teenage discussion!

You have rejected the Bible and Seed Covenant teaching from the Bible.

YOosee my friend, The Abrahamic covenant in Genesis, lays the groundwork for the nation of Israel and the coming Messiah, through whom God would bless all the nations of the world. The Mosaic covenant continues God’s dealings with the nation of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, calling them to reflect the glory of their Lord to the nations around them. The covenant made with King David pointed ahead of Israel to the coming Messiah, the one who would rule perfectly on David’s throne forever. It was not until Jesus came as Israel’s Messiah, however, that the covenants with man were kept perfectly and fulfilled. Jesus came to ratify the new covenant, promised in the Law and the Prophets, bringing along with it the eschatological blessings promised to God’s people.

But YOU have rejected that SEED Covenant !!!!

There is nothing else we need to discuss.

When YOU miss that one.....you will miss everything else.

 

[Albion]

Well we are all born into a fallen world, right...??

Okay, but what can we make of the Biblical information telling us that all men are born in sin and that they sin from birth, if it's not that Original Sin is really sin?

That's not saying to us that physical losses of the kind that Adam and Eve suffered are passed on to us or that we have an inclination towards committing sin later in life.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Revelation 12:1-2.........
"And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

All the Catholics I know and have talked with insist that Mary is the woman of Rev. 12.

Now, please READ what is seen in THE BOOK, the Bible.........
Fact established. The "woman" delivered in PAIN.

A WOMAN is suffering in PAIN when delivering a baby?

WHY is a WOMAN suffering in PAIN?????

Genesis 3:12 ........THE CURSE OF ORIGINAL SIN.....
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;".

PAIN in childbirth is Gods CURSE upon women, for ORIGINAL SIN ...
before that, no pain, after that, PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH.

As you have been shown and you are able to read it from YOUR OWN Bible,
you know the woman in Revelation delivered ----------
IN TRAIL AND PAIN = the woman carries the CURSE of PAIN.

Now the question is...
Does Catholicism have as DOGMA, that Mary was SINLESS?
Yes, she does, in a brand new Dogma the "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION", Mary was without SIN from Conception.

Therefore, from your own RCC, she did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden. Now is that right or have I misstated your RCC teaching?????

So then, No curse = NO PAIN.

So then........ EITHER The "woman" in Revelation is NOT Mary OR she IS MARY, but the PAIN showed that the DOGMA of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS IN ERROR.

Now this is not hard at all. It has to be one or the other. PICK ONE and let me know.

Not gonna pick anything from this false dichotomy: you've read too much into the verse, it's as simple as that.

 

[Major1]

Not gonna pick anything from this false dichotomy: you've read too much into the verse, it's as simple as that.

LOL!...........I read too much into that Scripture?????

Are you serious????

Since you believe that Mary is that woman.....where is her name in the Scripture?

Talk about READING into a Scripture. I would think that you could come up with something a lot better than that!

 

[Abaxvahl]

LOL!...........I read too much into that Scripture?????

Are you serious????

Since you believe that Mary is that woman.....where is her name in the Scripture?

Talk about READING into a Scripture. I would think that you could come up with something a lot better than that!

I ain't said nothing about her being that woman. Yes, I am dead serious, you've read too much into it getting yourself all twisted up in a false dichotomy. I need to come up with nothing more than the truth to be right.