Immaculate Conception Paradox.

[Major1]

Revelation 12:1-2.........
"And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

All the Catholics I know and have talked with insist that Mary is the woman of Rev. 12.

Now, please READ what is seen in THE BOOK, the Bible.........
Fact established. The "woman" delivered in PAIN.

A WOMAN is suffering in PAIN when delivering a baby?

WHY is a WOMAN suffering in PAIN?????

Genesis 3:12 ........THE CURSE OF ORIGINAL SIN.....
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;".

PAIN in childbirth is Gods CURSE upon women, for ORIGINAL SIN ...
before that, no pain, after that, PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH.

As you have been shown and you are able to read it from YOUR OWN Bible,
you know the woman in Revelation delivered ----------
IN TRAIL AND PAIN = the woman carries the CURSE of PAIN.

Now the question is...
Does Catholicism have as DOGMA, that Mary was SINLESS?
Yes, she does, in a brand new Dogma the "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION", Mary was without SIN from Conception.

Therefore, from your own RCC, she did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden. Now is that right or have I misstated your RCC teaching?????

So then, No curse = NO PAIN.

So then........ EITHER The "woman" in Revelation is NOT Mary OR she IS MARY, but the PAIN showed that the DOGMA of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS IN ERROR.

Now this is not hard at all. It has to be one or the other. PICK ONE and let me know.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Revelation 12:1-2.........
"And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

All the Catholics I know and have talked with insist that Mary is the woman of Rev. 12.

Now, please READ what is seen in THE BOOK, the Bible.........
Fact established. The "woman" delivered in PAIN.

A WOMAN is suffering in PAIN when delivering a baby?

WHY is a WOMAN suffering in PAIN?????

Genesis 3:12 ........THE CURSE OF ORIGINAL SIN.....
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;".

PAIN in childbirth is Gods CURSE upon women, for ORIGINAL SIN ...
before that, no pain, after that, PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH.

As you have been shown and you are able to read it from YOUR OWN Bible,
you know the woman in Revelation delivered ----------
IN TRAIL AND PAIN = the woman carries the CURSE of PAIN.

Now the question is...
Does Catholicism have as DOGMA, that Mary was SINLESS?
Yes, she does, in a brand new Dogma the "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION", Mary was without SIN from Conception.

Therefore, from your own RCC, she did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden. Now is that right or have I misstated your RCC teaching?????

So then, No curse = NO PAIN.

So then........ EITHER The "woman" in Revelation is NOT Mary OR she IS MARY, but the PAIN showed that the DOGMA of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS IN ERROR.

Now this is not hard at all. It has to be one or the other. PICK ONE and let me know.

Correct!
Revelation 12:1-2 is certainly not the mother of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. " The mother of us all" is the "New Jerusalem", the free woman. The "mother "who suffered the pain of child birth was Old Covenant Jerusalem , the bond woman. Galatians explains this quite well with Revelation revealing it through apocalyptic literature.
Galatians 4
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Later she becomes the scarlet woman of Revelation.

Blessings

 

[PloverWing]

I think you're being way too literal with Genesis and Revelation, both of which have a great deal of figurative language in them. But to stay within your point of view, how about this: As a result of the fall, all human bodies were made mortal, and the reproductive system in general was made so that the pelvis is small relative to the size of babies' heads. So all women, even Mary, experience pain in childbirth, and all people, even Jesus, are able to die.

 

[Trusting in Him]

The woman has twelve stars around her head. What do the twelve stars mean? They must mean something! Perhaps if we can find out what they mean, it might tell us something which will hep us answer this question.

I have wondered about the meaning of the twelve stars, to date it remains a mystery to me. Hopefully somebody will understand this better.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The woman has twelve stars around her head. What do the twelve stars mean? They must mean something! Perhaps if we can find out what they mean, it might tell us something which will hep us answer this question.

I have wondered about the meaning of the twelve stars, to date it remains a mystery to me. Hopefully somebody will understand this better.

The stars are the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Trusting in Him]

The stars are the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Albion]

Therefore, from your own RCC, she did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden. Now is that right or have I misstated your RCC teaching?????

I think you're being way too literal with Genesis and Revelation, both of which have a great deal of figurative language in them.

But to stay within your point of view, how about this: As a result of the fall, all human bodies were made mortal, and the reproductive system in general was made so that the pelvis is small relative to the size of babies' heads.

So all women, even Mary, experience pain in childbirth, and all people, even Jesus, are able to die.

When the legend of a sinless Mary developed, the claim which kept the theory intact was that she did NOT deliver Jesus in the usual way.

If she had, that wouldn't really have allowed for that other Catholic concept of Mary as ever-virgin.

But on the other hand, if the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that she was conceived without sin and lived a sinless life, that would be something separate from the physical losses imposed upon mankind as listed in Genesis.

 

[PloverWing]

I have my own separate issues with the Immaculate Conception and with the perpetual virginity of Mary, largely having to do with the church's view of women, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

@Albion , you're right that if Jesus was somehow born in a way that didn't even stretch Mary's hymen, then that would presumably be less painful than traditional delivery.

On the point of the OP, however, even if Jesus was born in the normal way, I don't think it necessarily follows that if Mary experienced pain, then Mary was sinful. Mary could be sinless and still have an ordinary human body that felt pain and was mortal. We have the example of Jesus, who was definitely sinless, and yet felt pain and was mortal.

 

[Major1]

Correct!
Revelation 12:1-2 is certainly not the mother of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. " The mother of us all" is the "New Jerusalem", the free woman. The "mother "who suffered the pain of child birth was Old Covenant Jerusalem , the bond woman. Galatians explains this quite well with Revelation revealing it through apocalyptic literature.
Galatians 4
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Later she becomes the scarlet woman of Revelation.

Blessings

Agreed. Israel is the woman of Rev. 12.

 

[Major1]

I have my own separate issues with the Immaculate Conception and with the perpetual virginity of Mary, largely having to do with the church's view of women, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

@Albion , you're right that if Jesus was somehow born in a way that didn't even stretch Mary's hymen, then that would presumably be less painful than traditional delivery.

On the point of the OP, however, even if Jesus was born in the normal way, I don't think it necessarily follows that if Mary experienced pain, then Mary was sinful. Mary could be sinless and still have an ordinary human body that felt pain and was mortal. We have the example of Jesus, who was definitely sinless, and yet felt pain and was mortal.

How could that be possible?????

The Woman in Rev. was IN Birth pains. IF the RCC is correct and it is Mary then she is subject to ORIGINAL SIN!

Is there ANY, BIBLE or Secular resources that support your claim of......
"Mary could be sinless and still have an ordinary human body that felt pain and was mortal. "

 

[chevyontheriver]

Revelation 12:1-2.........
"And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

All the Catholics I know and have talked with insist that Mary is the woman of Rev. 12.

Now, please READ what is seen in THE BOOK, the Bible.........
Fact established. The "woman" delivered in PAIN.

A WOMAN is suffering in PAIN when delivering a baby?

WHY is a WOMAN suffering in PAIN?????

Genesis 3:12 ........THE CURSE OF ORIGINAL SIN.....
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;".

PAIN in childbirth is Gods CURSE upon women, for ORIGINAL SIN ...
before that, no pain, after that, PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH.

As you have been shown and you are able to read it from YOUR OWN Bible,
you know the woman in Revelation delivered ----------
IN TRAIL AND PAIN = the woman carries the CURSE of PAIN.

Now the question is...
Does Catholicism have as DOGMA, that Mary was SINLESS?
Yes, she does, in a brand new Dogma the "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION", Mary was without SIN from Conception.

Therefore, from your own RCC, she did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden. Now is that right or have I misstated your RCC teaching?????

So then, No curse = NO PAIN.

So then........ EITHER The "woman" in Revelation is NOT Mary OR she IS MARY, but the PAIN showed that the DOGMA of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS IN ERROR.

Now this is not hard at all. It has to be one or the other. PICK ONE and let me know.

Your premise is wrong. Genesis 3:16, which you boldly quoted, said "I will greatly multiply". If there were zero pain in childbirth before the fall, and that pain was multiplied, there would still be zero pain in childbirth. Multiplication by zero does that for you. So, if there is pain in childbirth now, and if it is the result of some multiplication, the initial pre-fallen state of humanity would have been that there was some pain in childbirth before the fall. Within the text of your OP you have disproven your own thesis.

It is likely Eve had some labor pain before the fall. Maybe not much. I wasn't there. And possible Mary had a similar and perhaps minimal pain. Again, I wasn't there. Isaiah 66 would indicate a minimal pain, if you accept that as at all messianic.

 

[PloverWing]

Is there ANY, BIBLE or Secular resources that support your claim of......
"Mary could be sinless and still have an ordinary human body that felt pain and was mortal. "

I still offer the example of Jesus. Jesus was sinless (Hebrews 4:15), yet experienced pain and death (Luke 23-24, etc.). Therefore, it is possible for a sinless person to experience pain.

 

[Albion]

On the point of the OP, however, even if Jesus was born in the normal way, I don't think it necessarily follows that if Mary experienced pain, then Mary was sinful. Mary could be sinless and still have an ordinary human body that felt pain and was mortal.

That's true. However, I think I'm losing the point of this discussion, since it's supposedly about the Immaculate Conception but we're talking about humans having to suffer death and other physical setbacks.

 

[PloverWing]

That's true. However, I think I'm losing the point of this discussion, since it's supposedly about the Immaculate Conception but we're talking about humans having to suffer death and other physical setbacks.

I think the OP's argument is this:

1) Women have pain in childbirth because of the fall, resulting from sin.
2) Because of (1), if a woman were sinless, she would not have pain in childbirth.
3) According to a particular interpretation of Revelation, Mary suffered pain in childbirth.
4) Therefore, Mary was not sinless.

My counterargument is:
A) Death also comes as a result of sin and the fall.
B) Jesus, who was sinless, suffered death.
C) Therefore, (A) cannot mean that everyone who dies has sinned.
D) If death comes to everyone, sinless or not, then it is possible that pain in childbirth may also come to everyone, sinless or not. That is, I dispute step (2) of the OP's argument.

 

[prodromos]

Elements of the passage in Revelations describe both Israel and Mary. It is similar to the prophetic elements of the Psalms where David is figuratively describing himself and prophetically describing Christ. Some elements refer to both while some elements refer to one or the other but not both.

 

[Albion]

I think the OP's argument is this:

1) Women have pain in childbirth because of the fall, resulting from sin.
2) Because of (1), if a woman were sinless, she would not have pain in childbirth.

3) According to a particular interpretation of Revelation, Mary suffered pain in childbirth.
4) Therefore, Mary was not sinless.

Why does #4 follow from the preceding 3 points?

My counterargument is:
A) Death also comes as a result of sin and the fall.
B) Jesus, who was sinless, suffered death.
C) Therefore, (A) cannot mean that everyone who dies has sinned.

Well, the usual reason given for Christ alone to have been without sin is because he was God and God cannot sin.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have heard it said that those were constellations and astronomical signs...

 

[Major1]

I still offer the example of Jesus. Jesus was sinless (Hebrews 4:15), yet experienced pain and death (Luke 23-24, etc.). Therefore, it is possible for a sinless person to experience pain.

Jesus was God as well as human......Mary was not.

Your example does not apply!

Mary was under the curse of sin and delivered Jesus in pain!

Therefore she can not be sinless but is exactly like every one else.

 

[Major1]

Your premise is wrong. Genesis 3:16, which you boldly quoted, said "I will greatly multiply". If there were zero pain in childbirth before the fall, and that pain was multiplied, there would still be zero pain in childbirth. Multiplication by zero does that for you. So, if there is pain in childbirth now, and if it is the result of some multiplication, the initial pre-fallen state of humanity would have been that there was some pain in childbirth before the fall. Within the text of your OP you have disproven your own thesis.

It is likely Eve had some labor pain before the fall. Maybe not much. I wasn't there. And possible Mary had a similar and perhaps minimal pain. Again, I wasn't there. Isaiah 66 would indicate a minimal pain, if you accept that as at all messianic.

My dear friend......READ THE BOOK!

Eve ate the fruit, that brought Gods judgment on ALL people and THAT Was ORIGINAL SIN!

Then.....she had Cain and Able. EVE had children AFTER the Original Sin was committed! READ THE BOOK!

The post is completly correct and YOU have not answered in any way at all.

 

[PloverWing]

Why does #4 follow from the preceding 3 points?

Modus tollens (p -> q, not q, therefore not p) applied to these assertions

If a woman were sinless, she would not have pain in childbirth.
Mary suffered pain in childbirth.​

gives that Mary was not sinless.

That is the OP's argument, as I understand it.