I am starting to hate free will

Derf

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I'm still having the existential angst. God seems just content with standing by and allowing people to do evil to other people, and then judge everyone at once. Imagine if a house builder built your house and passively watched hoodlums vandalize and burn it to the ground completely, then punished them AFTER the irreparable damage was done. To me, that seems to describe the kind of father God is right now.
Or you might imagine God punishing everyone for just thinking wrong thoughts, before they implemented their evil...and before they were either able to resist temptation or succumb to it. Wouldn't you complain about that just as loudly?
 
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Jonaitis

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I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.
I don't buy the "testing grounds" idea. It sounds like something a Muslim would say.

God created this present life full of opposites and shades in between for our enjoyment. This is not to say that we can be immoral and unruly, but that these realities gives virtue and discipline meaning. Having the ability of choice and the flow-state, in my opinion, are meant for each other. I think what you are wanting is not freedom from choice, but freedom from the idea that you are enslaved by choice. This flow-state is what Christ intended to purchase for us at the cross. He removed our guilt, which enslaved us to the regret of our past; and secures our standing before the judgement in His righteousness, which frees us from the worry of the future. All this shows that Christ wants us to live in the flow with pious delight in God. It is truly the way we were meant to live.
 
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Sabertooth

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I'm still having the existential angst. God seems just content with standing by and allowing people to do evil to other people, and then judge everyone at once. Imagine if a house builder built your house and passively watched hoodlums vandalize and burn it to the ground completely, then punished them AFTER the irreparable damage was done. To me, that seems to describe the kind of father God is right now.
You are embracing a faulty paradigm. It is distracting you from your real --and most pressing-- needs.

Woe to him who strives with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’?
Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’
” Isaiah 45:9-10 NKJV
 
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subtlecollision

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I'm still having the existential angst. God seems just content with standing by and allowing people to do evil to other people, and then judge everyone at once. Imagine if a house builder built your house and passively watched hoodlums vandalize and burn it to the ground completely, then punished them AFTER the irreparable damage was done. To me, that seems to describe the kind of father God is right now.

Hey, sorry you're struggling with this still. I've been down a similar path of difficult thinking as you are now. It's not fun. :( If I understand what you're saying, it seems that you're struggling because you see so much suffering in the world and it doesn't seem to you like God is doing enough to fix the suffering? And this is perhaps influenced by the circumstances you are currently going through?

First off, I'd say God isn't thrilled to see people suffer. He is here to comfort us in our suffering. In the Bible, Jesus wept when Lazarus died. He truly is sensitive towards our hurts. He is more sensitive to our struggling than anyone else out there. He's closer to you than anyone else when you're struggling, and He won't leave you or get tired of you like other people in our lives might.

Truly, the purpose of everything is love. It may not seem like that because God has decided for us to live in a world that was affected by the fall. But God is love. Christians believe our purpose is to glorify God. And so that means being loving towards everyone around us, not only by action, but also our genuine affections for other people will grow.

The fact of the matter is that you have found yourself in this world that is full of great suffering. The exciting part is that even in small actions we can bring love into a miserable world. We can shine light in the darkness. Would it bring you contentment to focus in even small ways on how you can bring love to other people? I personally struggle with focusing too much on myself, but I often find contentment when I am more focused on others.

I pray that you would find peace as you wrestle with these thoughts and that God would lead you closer to His heart.
 
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VCR-2000

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I don't see God in a fatherly or familial kind of way, he is more like this distant, unseen figure who we can't comprehend and is not bound to our human logic, so this gives him free reign to do just whatever he pleases with us, no matter how stupid, sad, etc. it seems to us. He is not obligated to anyone and we can't possibly understand what he is doing. Not like a two-way reciprocal relationship between real friends.

And why does he seem ineffective or not willing to stop evil before it takes everything over completely? Why judge everyone at once at the end instead of giving justice during our lifetime? Some things I can forgive and forget because their effects are reversible. It's like having a very expensive and valuable watch that was destroyed or stolen, and the watchman could not return or recreate it again the same exact way the old one was.
 
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VCR-2000

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Hey, sorry you're struggling with this still. I've been down a similar path of difficult thinking as you are now. It's not fun. :( If I understand what you're saying, it seems that you're struggling because you see so much suffering in the world and it doesn't seem to you like God is doing enough to fix the suffering? And this is perhaps influenced by the circumstances you are currently going through?

First off, I'd say God isn't thrilled to see people suffer. He is here to comfort us in our suffering. In the Bible, Jesus wept when Lazarus died. He truly is sensitive towards our hurts. He is more sensitive to our struggling than anyone else out there. He's closer to you than anyone else when you're struggling, and He won't leave you or get tired of you like other people in our lives might.

Truly, the purpose of everything is love. It may not seem like that because God has decided for us to live in a world that was affected by the fall. But God is love. Christians believe our purpose is to glorify God. And so that means being loving towards everyone around us, not only by action, but also our genuine affections for other people will grow.

The fact of the matter is that you have found yourself in this world that is full of great suffering. The exciting part is that even in small actions we can bring love into a miserable world. We can shine light in the darkness. Would it bring you contentment to focus in even small ways on how you can bring love to other people? I personally struggle with focusing too much on myself, but I often find contentment when I am more focused on others.

I pray that you would find peace as you wrestle with these thoughts and that God would lead you closer to His heart.
Why does Satan get to be more powerful than God is at this moment? Why is he given entirely free reign to mess with Father's creation and God let's him do it right now. Why is humanity irreparably screwed that God has to destroy everything and create again blank? If Krypton was on the close edge of being destroyed and evil almost won (which seems like a very thin measure) as in all the buildings and institutions on the planet practically destroyed physically or morally, would Superman have stood by and allowed the initial conditions or events to happen?
 
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Derf

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I don't see God in a fatherly or familial kind of way, he is more like this distant, unseen figure who we can't comprehend and is not bound to our human logic, so this gives him free reign to do just whatever he pleases with us, no matter how stupid, sad, etc. it seems to us. He is not obligated to anyone and we can't possibly understand what he is doing. Not like a two-way reciprocal relationship between real friends.

And why does he seem ineffective or not willing to stop evil before it takes everything over completely? Why judge everyone at once at the end instead of giving justice during our lifetime? Some things I can forgive and forget because their effects are reversible. It's like having a very expensive and valuable watch that was destroyed or stolen, and the watchman could not return or recreate it again the same exact way the old one was.
He does give some justice during our lifetimes. Remember how Israel was conquered by the Assyrians, and Judah was conquered by the Babylonians? Remember how Saul lost his kingdom, and none of his children were allowed to be king after him?

Remember how David, after stealing Uriah's wife and having him killed, lost his child, temporarily lost his kingdom to his son, had his concubines taken in broad daylight in front of the whole city of Jerusalem.

Remember how Jerusalem was destroyed in the same generation that crucified Christ and rejected his offer of forgiveness?

And everyone who sins dies in their lifetime. Everyone! Perfect justice, since all sin and fall short of God's glory, and since the wages of sin is death.
 
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Sabertooth

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...so this gives him free reign to do just whatever he pleases with us, no matter how stupid, sad, etc. it seems to us. He is not obligated to anyone...
"And we know that all things work together for good
  • to those who love God,
  • to those who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 NKJV
 
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Samson2021

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It's like a double-edged sword. It's depressing that we aren't really free and our freedom is only an illusion.
True. The necessity to enslave man through the carnal mind to sin is necessary in order that God could have mercy on ALL. Romans 11:32
The true plan of God is bringing forth sons (many brothers) of Jesus Christ. But the maturing/perfecting of those sons requires the use of
the people that they associate with or love etc.... in that sin against them is the thing that makes them more like their Father if they will
forgive that sin, without sinners in the world there wouldn't be any sin to forgive and you would not be able to mature.
Jesus was betrayed in the garden, abandoned by His friends, found guilty though He was innocent and crucified as the sentence, but ALL
those things were the will of the Father for His perfecting. In the end He says Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
He is our example in that following Him brings you to the same place He is now. Problem most would have is that they do not see God
in control of every little detail of every ones life. He does work ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will. Why? because it was His plan
from before the beginning of the creation to bring forth the sons. Nothing that wasn't necessary, wasn't created nor caused to happen.
Whether we call it good or evil it is still God working to mature a small group of sons(for now) to rule the creation with Jesus by perfecting
them.
Be glad that you do not truly have a free will as then Romans 11:32 could not be fulfilled, and know that the end of you is far above what you
could possibly imagine for yourself, and that ALL THINGS work to the GOOD for those that love His appearing. We must endure suffering
and we must be chastened in order to be dealt with as sons. If God waited on us to get there on our own, I for one don't think it would
happen.
Like Jesus said "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, then the rest would be added unto you." Hint Romans 3 and 5:18
 
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subtlecollision

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Why does Satan get to be more powerful than God is at this moment? Why is he given entirely free reign to mess with Father's creation and God let's him do it right now. Why is humanity irreparably screwed that God has to destroy everything and create again blank? If Krypton was on the close edge of being destroyed and evil almost won (which seems like a very thin measure) as in all the buildings and institutions on the planet practically destroyed physically or morally, would Superman have stood by and allowed the initial conditions or events to happen?

Satan isn't more powerful than God at this moment. God does allow the devil to do evil. However, God is the one in control.

I believe God wanted the fall to happen. If there was no fall, there would be no redemption.



Here are some excerpts taken from The Gospel Coalition website:

"If God’s primary purpose in creation and redemption is the display of his glory, what does that tell us about why he allowed the fall? Both logically and chronologically, the fall comes between creation and redemption. Without a creation there could be no fallen creation; without a fallen creation there could be no redeemed creation. Salvation presupposes sin; restoration presupposes a fall. Thus it’s reasonable to infer that God’s primary purpose in allowing the fall was to showcase his glory both in the original creation and also in his powerful and merciful restoration of that creation from its rebellion and corruption."

"God created the world not primarily to promote human happiness, but to manifest his own glory. Indeed, God’s purpose in creating the world had to be his own glory, because God is by nature the greatest good and the ultimate end of all things. He is surely concerned about human happiness—it’s not a zero-sum game—but our happiness serves a higher purpose by finding its true fulfilment in God’s supreme goodness and beauty."

"One might think an unfallen creation would be preferable to a fallen creation—and all else being equal, that’s true. But all else is not equal, for our world is not merely a fallen creation. It’s a fallen creation into which the eternal Son of God has entered, taking on human nature, perfectly expressing God’s likeness in our midst, living a morally flawless life, making atonement for our sins through his sacrificial death, rising in triumph from the grave, and ascending into heaven, where he continually intercedes and secures for us an eternal joyful dwelling-place in God’s presence."

"A world with no fall and no salvation is altogether less God-glorifying than a world with a tragic fall but also a wondrous salvation."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason you're upset is because you wouldn't have created things the way God has? The fact of the matter, though, is that you never could've created yourself. You have no power to bring yourself into existence. That is one way in which you are not truly free. You didn't get to decide that you were born. However, you were born. For your psychological well-being, you have to accept that you were born into a world where things maybe aren't exactly how you would've chosen them to be. You can't spend your whole life thinking about "I wish things weren't this way" or "Why aren't things the way I want them to be?" You have to face what has already been done.

Here's another way to think of it-- would we know the utterly beautiful delights of goodness if we never experienced bad things in our life? I don't know that we would truly appreciate goodness and beauty if that was all there was. I think in some ways bad things have to be around for us to enjoy goodness to the maximal degree. At least in this life, God has chosen to allow bad to happen so that we might better understand goodness. Goodness is maximized because God allows evil. God's act of sending His son to the world as a human to sacrifice himself and free us of our guilt and sin is the maximal good. And this could not happen if there was no fall.

If you don't see what Jesus did in his death and resurrection as the highest good, I would pose these questions to you-- Do you ever struggle with shame or guilt or not feeling good enough or loved enough? I know I sure do. But I have found much freedom in knowing my identity in Christ. I am a person who struggles a lot with guilt especially. I tend to dwell on my mistakes a lot and feel bad about myself. I tend to feel less than everyone else and have low self esteem. However, I have found SO much freedom from these things by dwelling on what Christ has done for me. My slate was wiped clean and I was born again as God's beloved child.
 
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VCR-2000

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I wonder why God just wants to play this game with us. I know people say "God sees what we can't see or understand", but I wish God could have just created us directly in Heaven and have us completely see and understand him initially. No bait-and-switch.
 
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Derf

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I wonder why God just wants to play this game with us. I know people say "God sees what we can't see or understand", but I wish God could have just created us directly in Heaven and have us completely see and understand him initially. No bait-and-switch.
Then we might not agree with Him--kind of how Satan was created directly in heaven, and he rebelled.
 
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subtlecollision

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I wonder why God just wants to play this game with us. I know people say "God sees what we can't see or understand", but I wish God could have just created us directly in Heaven and have us completely see and understand him initially. No bait-and-switch.
It's not a bait-and-switch. God explains how to be saved. He makes it abundantly clear over and over again in the Bible what you need to do to go to heaven--- you need to believe in Jesus.

God doesn't fully reveal himself so that we might gain greater faith, hope, and trust. The virtues of faith, hope, and trust could not be maximally realized if we went directly to heaven.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.
i wouldn't over think about choice and one option vs another, rather i would just focus on walking with Jesus through a temporary world making decisions based on what Jesus would do, knowing that when you reach your destination you and Jesus will spend eternity together forever in a place He made for you free from all sin and the decision thereof.
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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I find it most relevant, that the word-pair "free will" does not exist in Holy Scripture. And I also find it most relevant, that we do have it written that God has sent spirits into people, to get them to behave in certain ways, both good and evil.
 
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Samson2021

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We have the to choose good or bad as evidenced by the world being in rebellion to God.
The problem is that God predestined us ALL to be in rebellion. Romans 11:32 "For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so that He could have mercy on everyone."
The problem here is truly that we humans want to put everything into a category of either GOOD or EVIL.
God made BOTH to reside on the tree in the garden. We someday will come to understand Romans 8:28 ...ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THOSE THAT LOVE GOD TO THEM WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.... Whether you call it good or evil for God uses both to mature those whom He has elected to be His first-born sons. And if there are first-born there will also be second. That is for another day.
Consider did you earn the baptism in the Holy Ghost or was it received after you received the faith necessary to believe?
Both of which are gifts from the Fathers hand.
Thus you did not choose to believe but rather God chose you to fulfill His purpose. Rejoice in that fact that God our Father chose you in this first dispensation. John 15:16 "You did NOT choose Me, I chose you....."
Considering you have no input as to mother and or father, gender, what religion you were raised in, education, what century, born during old or new testament times etc.... your life is on a daily basis lived out according to a plan that God had devised for you before the world even was formed.

Did God abdicate His plan for you based on your uninformed decisions?

Most cannot or will not accept that they have nothing to do with their own salvation and want to somehow earn what was given to them by the sacrifice of the Son. Romans 5:18

Once we realize our own righteousness is but a blinder we can then move forward into maturing and recognize that our situations are devised by the Father to MATURE us just as they did Jesus.

A carnally minded man will never understand this for that carnal mind controls how he thinks and it sees itself as god.

The new born spirit within the man must win the battle over the mind and be transformed by the renewing of that mind so that he can become what he was meant to be, a son of the living God and a brother of the Lord Jesus, and thus become what both are...LOVE.
Simply realize that you are being processed by your Father into the son that He predestinated you to someday be.

There are those who are appointed to stumble at the word, and there are those that will obtain unto the first born son group, and truly both
are the Fathers decisions not ours.
FREEWILL? NO SUCH THING, as those appointed to stumble cannot override the decision of God!!
 
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The problem is that God predestined us ALL to be in rebellion. Romans 11:32 "For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so that He could have mercy on everyone."
The problem here is truly that we humans want to put everything into a category of either GOOD or EVIL.
God made BOTH to reside on the tree in the garden. We someday will come to understand Romans 8:28 ...ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THOSE THAT LOVE GOD TO THEM WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.... Whether you call it good or evil for God uses both to mature those whom He has elected to be His first-born sons. And if there are first-born there will also be second. That is for another day.
Consider did you earn the baptism in the Holy Ghost or was it received after you received the faith necessary to believe?
Both of which are gifts from the Fathers hand.
Thus you did not choose to believe but rather God chose you to fulfill His purpose. Rejoice in that fact that God our Father chose you in this first dispensation. John 15:16 "You did NOT choose Me, I chose you....."
Considering you have no input as to mother and or father, gender, what religion you were raised in, education, what century, born during old or new testament times etc.... your life is on a daily basis lived out according to a plan that God had devised for you before the world even was formed.

Did God abdicate His plan for you based on your uninformed decisions?

Most cannot or will not accept that they have nothing to do with their own salvation and want to somehow earn what was given to them by the sacrifice of the Son. Romans 5:18

Once we realize our own righteousness is but a blinder we can then move forward into maturing and recognize that our situations are devised by the Father to MATURE us just as they did Jesus.

A carnally minded man will never understand this for that carnal mind controls how he thinks and it sees itself as god.

The new born spirit within the man must win the battle over the mind and be transformed by the renewing of that mind so that he can become what he was meant to be, a son of the living God and a brother of the Lord Jesus, and thus become what both are...LOVE.
Simply realize that you are being processed by your Father into the son that He predestinated you to someday be.

There are those who are appointed to stumble at the word, and there are those that will obtain unto the first born son group, and truly both
are the Fathers decisions not ours.
FREEWILL? NO SUCH THING, as those appointed to stumble cannot override the decision of God!!
100%
 
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