Free Will Exists Vs Free Will Does Not Exist

[Chriliman]

Are you certain it is your free will, or the work of the Holy Spirit?

I must exercise my free will to hope and pray for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, it is then given to me after I exercise my free will and ask for it.

 

[elopez]

Yes, I think so.

Then there may be room for debate, as your denial of determinism means you would think free will is not compatible with determinism.

All events, including a perfectly created being's action, are ultimately determined by free will.

I would more so disagree, and say external factors are relevant to free will.

 

[Chriliman]

Then there may be room for debate, as your denial of determinism means you would think free will is not compatible with determinism.


I would more so disagree, and say external factors are relevant to free will.

I would say the only external factor that is relevant to free will is truth. Satan denied the truth that God created him and instead insisted he was god, which caused evil.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Ephesians 2 is a good guide to these matters. Look at how the unbeliever is 'dead in trespasses and sins' and how the grace of God brings life to those who believe.

 

[elopez]

Remember guys, I am taking the compatibilist position, which says free will and determinism co-exist. If either of you find gruff there, we can has out further parameters.

Chriliman seems to be saying free will exists but determinism does not. Is that accurate? Gill seems to be saying determinism is true while free will isn't. Is that accurate?

 

[Chriliman]

Free will and determinism can co-exist, but that either shows that determinism only exists because of free will, or it shows that determinism exists and therefore free will cannot exist.

I think free will comes first and then the idea of determinism is possible. I can't say the idea of determinism comes directly from God. The only thing that should lead our free will is God.

 

[elopez]

Free will and determinism can co-exist, but that either shows that determinism only exists because of free will, or it shows that determinism exists and therefore free will cannot exist.

I think we could use this as a starting point in the debate, again, that is if you're interested. Those are conclusions I disagree with and could be used as your thesis of sorts.

I think free will comes first and then the idea of determinism is possible. I can't say the idea of determinism comes directly from God.

Again, I disagree with this. I think determinism is related to God and His nature.

The subject of debate would then be about the nature of determinism and how it relates to free will. What do you think?

 

[elopez]

From our point of view it only appears that we have choices, but the path for us is already set

So youre saying free will is an illusion from our p.o.v.?

How can free will exist in a fixed nature if a choice could possibly change the outcome?

Well this would be the subject of the debate. Right now I'm just wanting to know if you're interested in participating, and what exactly your position would be.

 

[Chriliman]

I think we could use this as a starting point in the debate, again, that is if you're interested. Those are conclusions I disagree with and could be used as your thesis of sorts.


Again, I disagree with this. I think determinism is related to God and His nature.

The subject of debate would then be about the nature of determinism and how it relates to free will. What do you think?

Interestingly, I'm going to exercise my free will and say I've already explained my position as best as I can. You are free to exercise your free will as well and say you disagree. The honest advice I will give is that you first seek God and let Him lead you, the result is guaranteed clarity on all issues.

God bless!

 

[elopez]

Interestingly, I'm going to exercise my free will and say I've already explained my position as best as I can.

So you're not interested in participating? If not, I appreciate the short talk we had, though I am looking for a debate partner.

 

[Chriliman]

So you're not interested in participating? If not, I appreciate the short talk we had, though I am looking for a debate partner.

I feel like I already participated I don't think I'm the type of person you're looking for.

 

[GillDouglas]

So youre saying free will is an illusion from our p.o.v.?

In my opinion, this is correct. It only appears we have a choice though truly none exists. Often I equate God to an Author, and that would make us the characters in the Story.

Well this would be the subject of the debate. Right now I'm just wanting to know if you're interested in participating, and what exactly your position would be.

I'm attempting to do so. I do not believe we have our own free will, only the 'choice' to follow His regardless of the individual (saved or unsaved).

 

[elopez]

In my opinion, this is correct. It only appears we have a choice though truly none exists.

And so as I disagree, and believe there is genuine choice, we could frame the subject of debate as:

We have free will/We do not

Free will is compatible with Christianity and or God/ Free will is not

Which are you more partial to? Do you have a proposal of your own perhaps? Really I am open. Maybe if we consider some more aspects, such as the question of determinism and to what role that plays.

 

[elopez]

@GillDouglas,

I also would be going first since I am taking the affirmative, unless you would want to, which is fine too. Lenght between posts should be no longer than a full week unless we want to go with less days which I am for. I would be good with 3 rounds, again unless objected to and would like more. The length of posts I would say should not exceed 2000. Anything else?

 

[ScottA]

Free will is a topic so frequent in these forums, which is obvious once you do a simple search under said term on this website. Yet it hasn't been throroughly discussed, or rather debated, here in this forum. It would be interesting to explore the idea of free will with someone, specifically, who outright denies free will exists. What that means is up to you. I would take the view that free will does exist. I think we should have a detailed understanding of free will as far as any philosophical, scientific, or theological approach. Maybe all three.

Generally the affirmative position would begin which would be I, unless objected to, in which case I would be arguing from a compatibilist position, which is the idea free will is not mutually exclusive from determinism. I am Christian, so I would be arguing from that p.o.v. Obviously the parameters of the debate can be fleshed out. And it may be the case that the debate could turn into "God gave us free will VS God did not" or "Free will is compatible with Christianity/idea of God VS Free will is not compatible as such." The former being a Christian partner and the latter perhaps a non theist partner.

The problem with the idea of free will...is we don't want to, and can't imagine, that we don't have it. Life just doesn't seem to be like that...why...we have a good dozen choices of free will even before we've had our coffee! So, regardless of any scriptural references, we proceed to go with what seems obvious.

BUT, crunch the scriptures to the most basic common denominator...[Jesus], the ONLY begotten...and we don't even get a vote, let alone a choice!

Let me say it another way: IF...Jesus...is the ONLY begotten...He is the ONLY one with free will.

And...if we are "in Him"...did we "choose" Him of our own "free will"...or did He choose us?

See what I mean?

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Extreme proponent of predestination checking in.

 

[elopez]

See what I mean?

I do but I think we can be said to still have free will. If you're interested in debate, I have some specifics outlined above you can give your thoughts on.

 

[elopez]

Extreme proponent of predestination checking in.

As in free will does not exist?

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

As in free will does not exist?

As in it's nearly heresy to insinuate it does.

 

[ScottA]

I think free will is compatible with determinism. Both exist.

Not sure I am doing this right. Not clear on what points should be debated...so I picked this one.

I'm not big on 'isms, so pardon me for blundering. This is much like evolution vs. creation, in that one is somewhat set, while the other is not. And just like that topic, I see the point of confusion as being much the same: Variations of "adaptation" are taken as evolution instead of simple environmental differences.

Likewise, I see here that our freedom to think, is being confused with freedom to act. If we indeed had freedom to act, then it could be said that our thoughts could be manifest by our own free will. BUT, not only could we not will our self into being, but without Christ...we can do nothing. John 15:5

Thus, the most that can be said of our freedom, is that we are free to "think", and therefore we "imagine" we have free will...but are in fact powerless to change our circumstance one cubit. Matthew 6:25-34