Foods which correlate with CVD risk

[FireDragon76]

I think its implied by your words that the vegan diet must be carefully planned.

It is something I said out of an abundance of caution, but that doesn't mean the diet is particularly difficult if you live in a place with a wide variety of foods, which is the case in most developed nations. You just need a small variety of legumes (beans, lentils, peas), grains, vegetables and fruits, with nuts and seeds as supplements.

You could create a perfectly adequate Vegan diet with only a few basic foods, and it doesn't necessarily cost alot money. In fact in most cases, it will cost far less. I don't spend alot of money on my diet, in fact my diet is far cheaper than it used to be as an omnivore. Beans and lentils have been mostly immune to the recent inflationary pressures affecting meat and processed foods.

And even vegan gurus say that it must be supplemented. Which is a luxury somebody in the most developed countries maybe can somehow do, but not common people all around the world.

B-12 is one of the cheapest supplements you can buy, costing only a few pennies per day. Again, it's recommended out of an abundance of caution. There are plant based sources of B-12 like mankai (duckweed) or chlorella, they just are uncommon in the developed world as actual foods.

Animals raised for meat in countries like the US and Europe are usually given B-12 as a supplement. B-12 isn't made by animals at all, it's made by bacteria and absorbed by animals and some plants.

Most people eat what they have around them. From rice every day to oreos, fries and sodas every day (yep, junk food people are basically vegans, too). The vast majority of plant based diets would be unhealthy even in your eyes.

That's an argument for combating poverty and junk food, not an argument against Veganism.

That's the reason there are no vegan natural cultures. Veganism as a culture requires modern technology to provide a year-round viable diet.

Veganism is bounded by practicality. Here is the official definition of Veganism:

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

While Veganism in its modern form took shape under Donald Watson in the mid 20th century in Britain, there have been similar ethics throughout history.

 

[FireDragon76]

I know a couple of junk food vegans who do exactly that...and wonder why they can't lose weight.

It seems to be a problem in particular in the US among Vegans eating newer highly processed foods. On the one hand, this makes Veganism more attractive to a wider range of people. On the other hand, the diets aren't necessarily as healthy.

English Vegans in the 20th century ate more higher caloric foods like nut or soy based loafs, soy milk, and whipped cream made from tofu, imitating traditional English diets, but tended to weigh less than the general population anyways.

 

[trophy33]

You just need a small variety of legumes (beans, lentils, peas), grains, vegetables and fruits, with nuts and seeds as supplements.

You could create a perfectly adequate Vegan diet with only a few basic foods

If you truly believe this, I am sincerely worried about your health after some years.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you truly believe this, I am sincerely worried about your health after some years.

I'm healthier than I was as an omnivore, and I've been eating this way for over three years. There are plenty of vegans that have eaten that way all their lives.

 

[trophy33]

I'm healthier than I was as an omnivore, and I've been eating this way for over three years. There are plenty of vegans that have eaten that way all their lives.

There are also plenty of vegans who died or who ended in serious health problems on such diets.

You may feel healthier because you are basically living from your fat storage created during the years of bad diet. But its hardly sustainable.

 

[FireDragon76]

There are also plenty of vegans who died or who ended in serious health problems on such diets.

It's very unlikely that a vegan diet could be responsible for somebody's death due to malnutrition. Even a poorly planned one.

In the western world, you are more likely to encounter a malnourished omnivore rather than a malnourished vegan.

You may feel healthier because you are basically living from your fat storage created during the years of bad diet. But its hardly sustainable.

"Living from my fat storage"? Uhhh, no. If I were doing that, I would have starved to death a long time ago.

 

[trophy33]

It's very unlikely that a vegan diet could be responsible for somebody's death due to malnutrition. Even a poorly planned one.

In the western world, you are more likely to encounter a malnourished omnivore rather than a malnourished vegan.

Not sure why is it unlikely, when its quite a known and accepted fact that plants lack almost all essential nutrients (proteins, fats, vitamins, minerals) in the form needed for the human body. And when you like established majority consensus, veganism is not recommended and is warned against.

"Living from my fat storage"? Uhhh, no. If I were doing that, I would have starved to death a long time ago.

Why are you still trying to lose weigh, then? Vitamins and other nutrients are being stored with the fat. Vegans start to have health problems after being on a vegan diet for about 5 years, if they were not overweight, then sooner.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not sure why is it unlikely, when its quite a known and accepted that plants lacks almost all essential nutrients (proteins, fats, vitamins, minerals)

No, it isn't well known among those with actual expert knowledge.

Every plant has every essential amino acid, in varying amounts. Nobody has ever died from a pure amino acid deficiency on a Vegan diet. None. It's more or less impossible, assuming you are eating adequate amounts of calories.

in the form needed for the human body.

Not true. There's no good evidence that Vegans in general are deficient in any vitamin or mineral, when measuring actual blood levels.

And when you like established majority consensus, veganism is not recommended and is warned against.

Also not true. The American Dietetic Association says that Vegans diets are appropriate for all stages of life.

 

[trophy33]

The American Dietetic Association says that Vegans diets are appropriate for all stages of life.

A 1995 report, noted the Academy received funding from companies like McDonald's, PepsiCo, The Coca-Cola Company, Sara Lee, Abbott Nutrition, General Mills, Kellogg's, Mars, McNeil Nutritionals, SOYJOY, Truvia, Unilever, and The Sugar Association as corporate sponsorship.[29][68] The Academy also partners with ConAgra Foods, which produces Orville Redenbacker, Slim Jims, Hunt's Ketchup, SnackPacks, and Hebrew National hot dogs, to maintain the American Dietetic Association/ConAgra Foods Home Food Safety...It's in Your Hands program.[69] Additionally, the Academy earns revenue from corporations by selling space at its booth during conventions, doing this for soft drinks and candy makers.[29][70]

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You should really check your sources.

 

[FireDragon76]

A 1995 report, noted the Academy received funding from companies like McDonald's, PepsiCo, The Coca-Cola Company, Sara Lee, Abbott Nutrition, General Mills, Kellogg's, Mars, McNeil Nutritionals, SOYJOY, Truvia, Unilever, and The Sugar Association as corporate sponsorship.[29][68]

Are you saying Pepsi-Co, McDonald's, and Mars are part of some Vegan conspiracy to manipulate the agenda of the American Dietetic Association? Last time I checked, McDonald's makes money selling hamburgers, and most of Mars' products contain dairy.

I don't think you've thought this argument through, and are grasping at straws.

 

[trophy33]

Are you saying Pepsi-Co, McDonald's, and Sara Lee are part of some Vegan conspiracy to manipulate the agenda of the American Dietetic Association? Last time I checked, McDonald's makes money selling hamburgers, and most of Mars' products contain dairy.

I don't think you've thought this argument through, and are grasping at straws.

Were you not telling me some vague accusations about meat industry sponsoring something (but you gave no specifics and then ignored my request for the specifics)?

And then you argue with an association accepting money from so many junk food companies. You should search for more believable sources.

 

[FireDragon76]

Were you not telling me some vague accusations about meat industry sponsoring something (but you gave no specifics and then ignored my request for the specifics)?

The sponsorship is often subtle. They fund controversial sounding but flawed medical studies then pay journalists like Nina Teicholz to promote the story as some new disruptive bit of information that changes everything (like Galileo), when in fact it's just a bad study comparing something like butter with coconut oil or hydrogenated vegetable oil. Then Teicholz proclaims how the whole medical establishment is rotten because butter is the new misunderstood superfood, and you get dozens of quack doctors suddenly advocating putting butter in coffee. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

And then you argue with an association accepting money from so many junk food companies. You should search for more solid sources.

The discussion is about Veganism, not junk food.

Just because a group accepts money also doesn't imply a conflict of interest. Especially when the interest in question has little or nothing to do with the subject being discussed. McDonald's has no financial interest in promoting a Vegan diet, in fact very little of their menu here in the US is Vegan.

 

[trophy33]

The sponsorship is often subtle. They fund controversial sounding but flawed medical studies then pay journalists like Nina Teicholz to promote the story as some new disruptive bit of information that changes everything (like Galileo), when in fact it's just a bad study comparing something like butter with coconut oil or hydrogenated vegetable oil.

Try to provide some believable sources for your claims.

The discussion is about Veganism, not junk food.

Just because a group accepts money also doesn't imply a conflict of interest. Especially when the interest in question has little or nothing to do with the subject being discussed. McDonald's has no financial interest in promoting a Vegan diet, in fact very little of their menu here in the US is Vegan.

Most junk food is vegan. Of course it makes sense to pay associations that preach against something else (like meat) and are silent about your products.

 

[FireDragon76]

Here's a video describing how this disinformation complex works, regarding saturated fat and journalists:

 

[FireDragon76]

Most junk food is vegan.

Last time I checked, cigarettes were technically vegan too... but is that really an argument against Veganism?

Veganism actually rests on modest claims. It doesn't claim a Vegan diet is a perfect human diet, merely that is a diet that is adequate for human health and seeks to avoid, as much as is practical, using animals for food, clothing, medicine, etc. So you are setting up a bit of a strawman.

Of course it makes sense to pay associations that preach against something else (like meat) and are silent about your products.

That doesn't make sense, since McDonald's makes most of its money off the sale of meals that contain meat.

 

[trophy33]

Last time I checked, cigarettes were technically vegan too... but is that really an argument against Veganism?

If a cigarette company sponsored for example heart health association and this heart health association began to make controversial claims, that would also rise legitimate questions.

Its not argument against veganism, but against using such association as some authoritative source for nutrition. Do not create strawmen.

That doesn't make sense, since McDonald's makes most of its money off the sale of meals that contain meat.

There were many more companies in the sponsors list, not just MacDonald.

 

[FireDragon76]

If a cigarette company sponsored for example heart health association, that would also rise legitimate questions.


There were many more companies in the sponsors list, not just MacDonald.

A great many of them make alot of money selling non-Vegan foods and products. Mars and Sara Lee sell foods that were not Vegan. In fact, here in the US, a great many of those processed foods contain non-Vegan ingredients, like whey or milk fat.

 

[trophy33]

A great many of them make alot of money selling non-Vegan foods and products. Mars and Sara Lee sell foods that were not Vegan. In fact, here in the US, a great many processed foods contain non-Vegan ingredients.

They sponsor this specific diabetes association, not veganism as such.

 

[FireDragon76]

They sponsor this specific diabetes association, not veganism as such.

So? Sponsorship doesn't imply they control every aspect of policy, or even most areas of policy.

 

[trophy33]

So? Sponsorship doesn't imply they control every aspect of policy, or even most areas of policy.

Sponsorship influences the politics of the association. And basically all the companies I recognize in the sponsors list are selling products causing diabetes.