Foods which correlate with CVD risk

[RDKirk]

It seems to be a problem in particular in the US among Vegans eating newer highly processed foods. On the one hand, this makes Veganism more attractive to a wider range of people. On the other hand, the diets aren't necessarily as healthy.

That's the divide between veganism as a philosophy and veganism as a health practice.

English Vegans in the 20th century ate more higher caloric foods like nut or soy based loafs, soy milk, and whipped cream made from tofu, imitating traditional English diets, but tended to weigh less than the general population anyways.

There are a whole lot of differences between the traditional British diet and the American diet.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sponsorship influences the politics of the association. And basically all the companies I recognize in the sponsors list are selling products causing diabetes.

The American Dietetic Association is an organization of dieticians, not endocrinologists.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's the divide between veganism as a philosophy and veganism as a health practice.

There are a whole lot of differences between the traditional British diet and the American diet.

The distinction is more of a modern one. Donald Watson, who founded the original UK Vegan Society, was opposed to drinking or smoking, and he also practiced hiking as a hobby. Though he was agnostic and not religious, he had a consistent life-affirming ethic, reflected in both his promotion of healthy living and his opposition to personal participation in war or violence (he was a conscientious objector in WWII).

 

[RDKirk]

The distinction is more of a modern one. Donald Watson, who founded the original UK Vegan Society, was opposed to drinking or smoking, and he also practiced hiking as a hobby. Though he was agnostic and not religious, he had a consistent life-affirming ethic, reflected in both his promotion of healthy living and his opposition to personal participation in war or violence (he was a conscientious objector in WWII).

That doesn't have anything to do with the difference between the British diet and the American diet.

If anything, in the last 20 years, they have become slightly more alike to the extent that American foods have invaded the UK. But in terms of the quality of food, the American food supply and eating habits took their turn for the worst, as I've said before, in the 70s into the 80s. The British food supply (and that of the EU), did not take the same downturn.

 

[trophy33]

The American Dietetic Association is an organization of dieticians, not endocrinologists.

Ah, I somehow misread the name and read Diabetics. However, the point that an association paid by such companies is not trustworthy, remains.

These XY health associations in the USA with various names are not under any official supervision to stay scientific, its all based just upon public trust, so taking money from such companies simply makes them not worthy to be mentioned as your authority.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ah, I somehow misread the name and read Diabetics. However, the point that association paid by such companies is not trustworthy.

It's not really a matter of trust, but scientific evidence.

McDonald's gives money to dieticians because it looks good as part of McDonald's corporate image, not necessarily because they expect to be able to veto policies of dietetic associations. McDonald's selling meat-based meals doesn't seem to have much to do with the ADA's position, which is based in science, that a Vegan diet is adequate for all stages of life.

 

[trophy33]

It's not really a matter of trust, but scientific evidence.

Great, present the evidence, then, instead of associations.

However, do not expect that your evidence must be accepted. Evidence is meant to be talked about and interpreted, evidence is not proof.

Like correlation is not causality, relative risk is not absolute risk, statistical significance is not clinical significance and other similar areas many scientifically untrained people (like journalists) frequently fail to recognize. Surprisingly, sometimes also scientifically trained people.

 

[trophy33]

It's very unlikely that a vegan diet could be responsible for somebody's death due to malnutrition. Even a poorly planned one.

For example pellagra in the USA killed at least 100,000 of Americans and about 3 million got seriously sick.

Because they consumed a corn-based diet, not knowing that niacin in the corn is not bioavailable for humans without a special processing before cooking.

Also, vegan diets are killing and making sick millions of people every year - junk food diet is basically another example of a poorly planned vegan diet. Its quite common that many young people are living on potato chips, sugary drinks, sweets, pasta, pastry, cereals.

 

[FireDragon76]

For example pellagra in the USA killed at least 100,000 of Americans and about 3 million got seriously sick.

Because they consumed a corn-based diet, not knowing that niacin in the corn is not bioavailable for humans without a special processing before cooking.

That was caused by poverty in the rural South, not a plant-based diet. Something similar happened in parts of Italy, and it was also caused by poverty. Corn grits, a staple food of poor people in the southern US, are made from defatted, degerminated corn, and have much of the nutritional value stripped away. It's not comparable to eating whole grains, that still have the germ and fiber intact.

Other cultures that used nixtamalized whole corn (corn treated with alkali), where the B vitamins are biovailable, don't suffer from pellagra. Having a more varied plant-based diet can also prevent pellagra.

Also, niacin can be synthesized in the body from the amino acid tryptophan, and isn't strictly an essential nutrient.

Also, vegan diets are killing and making sick millions of people every year

Evidence?

- junk food diet is basically another example of a poorly planned vegan diet.

Alot of the junk food you find in the average American store isn't Vegan, and the vast majority of junk food is being consumed by non-Vegan omnivores.

Its quite common that many young people are living on potato chips, sugary drinks, sweets, pasta, pastry, cereals.

Is that due to Veganism, or poverty, or something else (marketing of these foods)?

 

[RDKirk]

That was caused by poverty in the rural South, not a plant-based diet. Something similar happened in parts of Italy, and it was also caused by poverty. Corn grits, a staple food of poor people in the southern US, are made from defatted, degerminated corn, and have much of the nutritional value stripped away. It's not comparable to eating whole grains, that still have the germ and fiber intact.

Other cultures that used nixtamalized whole corn (corn treated with alkali), where the B vitamins are biovailable, don't suffer from pellagra. Having a more varied plant-based diet can also prevent pellagra.

Also, niacin can be synthesized in the body from the amino acid tryptophan, and isn't strictly an essential nutrient.




Evidence?



Alot of the junk food you find in the average American store isn't Vegan, and the vast majority of junk food is being consumed by non-Vegan omnivores.



Is that due to Veganism, or poverty, or something else (marketing of these foods)?

I think you missed the point.

The point is that a vegan diet must be very carefully curated. One can't simply stop eating meat. That's the reason there are no native cultures that were vegan. Veganism requires modern technology.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think you missed the point.

The point is that a vegan diet must be very carefully curated.

A healthy diet in general requires some level of care and concern. My brother had a friend that died in his mid 50's from eating a diet made predominantly of chicken nuggets.

My diet isn't especially curated. I can find something to eat at most restaurants I go to (even steakhouses), and I'm not having to choose between a selection of junk foods.

 

[trophy33]

My diet isn't especially curated. I can find something to eat at most restaurants I go to (even steakhouses), and I'm not having to choose between a selection of junk foods.

But for how long will this random/blind eating of various plants work without a health problem? Its a lottery.

 

[FireDragon76]

But for how long will this random/blind eating of various plants work without a health problem? Its a lottery.

Actually, that sort of eating pattern is a decent, if not ideal, way to get a balanced diet, especially for a species like humans that can eat just about anything.

Also, plant-based junk food is generally not served in restaurants.

At steakhouses I usually just order some sweet potato and brocolli, and I'll eat some of the free bread or something like that. Not an ideal diet, perhaps (legumes and fruit as an option would be good), but it's better than trying to subsist on chicken nuggets.

 

[trophy33]

That was caused by poverty in the rural South, not a plant-based diet.

It was caused by their corn-based diet. Yes, they ate it because they were poor, but thats not the point, here.

Other cultures that used nixtamalized whole corn (corn treated with alkali), where the B vitamins are biovailable, don't suffer from pellagra.

Exactly. Because humans are not naturally designed to eat it, we must do some chemical tricks before consuming it. Those cultures that practice these techniques had to discover it painfully, too. When people do not have this know-how, they may die.

Alot of the junk food you find in the average American store isn't Vegan

Potato chips, cakes, pasta, pastry, cereals, sugary drinks are 99% vegan. And plenty of people today live on such foods.

Is that due to Veganism, or poverty, or something else (marketing of these foods)?

Due to bad, mostly vegan diet.

 

[trophy33]

Actually, that sort of eating pattern is a decent, if not ideal, way to get a balanced diet, especially for a species like humans that can eat just about anything.

This is simply not true from any aspect one can look at it from.

1. We are not designed to eat "just about anything". This is a terrible statement. Just look at the people and their health.

2. And balancing the plants on a plant-based diet is not a good thing just because it has nicer colors or something, its a health necessity. The vast majority of plants is so poisonous for people that they are not edible at all. The tiny minority of plants we can eat without dying needs to be rotated frequently, because:
a) none of the plants has a complete nutrition for humans
b) all of the plants have some toxins, anti-nutrients

So "a balanced diet" simply means that you protect yourself from a specific plant poison to accumulate too quickly/too much and that you try your malnutrition to be minimized. Its not a random game, it must be carefully planned with a precise knowledge of what you are doing.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is simply not true from any aspect one can look at it from.

1. We are not designed to eat "just about anything". This is a terrible statement. Just look at the people and their health.

2. And balancing the plants on a plant-based diet is not a good thing just because it has nicer colors or something, its a health necessity. The vast majority of plants is so poisonous for people that they are not edible at all.

Not true. The majority of plant species on Earth are not poisonous to humans, especially so if you consider cooking or soaking to be an option. The notion that "plants are trying to kill us" in general is pseudoscience, fearmongering meant to push an agenda. There are many edible species of plants.

 

[trophy33]

Not true. The majority of plant species on Earth are not poisonous to humans, especially so if you consider cooking or soaking to be an option. The notion that "plants are trying to kill us" in general is pseudoscience, fearmongering meant to push an agenda. There are many edible species of plants.

If you think you can go to the nature and simply eat most of the plants there, then this conversation has no meaning. Its just a vegan ideology. Cooking and soaking is exactly done for the reason to minimize the poisons in the few we can do that with.

Not even herbivores can eat many plants, every herbivore is specialized to eat only specific plants, because it needs a specifically designed body to deal with a specific plant toxicity. Different plants than they are evolved to eat make even herbivores sick. Not to say carnivores like humans.

 

[FireDragon76]

From Google Bard:

Are the majority of plant species poisonous to humans

Fortunately, no! The vast majority of plant species on Earth are not poisonous to humans. Estimates suggest that only about 10% of the roughly 350,000 known plant species contain significant toxins, and even among those, many pose little to no actual danger as long as you're not actively trying to ingest them.

However, it's important to remember that just because something is a plant doesn't mean it's safe to eat. It's always best to stick to known edible plants or consult a reliable source like a field guide or expert before foraging or consuming any wild plant. This caution helps avoid accidentally ingesting harmful toxins or simply ending up with something unpleasant-tasting.

Here are some tips for staying safe if you're curious about plants:

• Stick to the familiar: If you're not sure about a plant, it's best to leave it alone. Focus on fruits, vegetables, and herbs that you know are safe to eat.
• Consult a field guide or expert: If you're interested in learning more about wild plants, invest in a reputable field guide or seek guidance from a knowledgeable botanist or local foraging expert.
• Remember, looks can be deceiving: Some poisonous plants can resemble edible ones, so don't rely solely on appearance for identification.
• When in doubt, throw it out: If you're unsure about a plant's safety, it's better to err on the side of caution and discard it.

By following these simple tips, you can enjoy the beauty and diversity of the plant world without any unwanted surprises. Remember, there's a whole world of delicious and safe plants out there waiting to be discovered!

Foods available in grocery stores or restaurants are from species known to be safe to eat to humans, and therefore it is a decent approach to just eat a variety of them, and you'll get a fairly decent diet. Not ideal, but certainly better than subsisting on chicken nuggets.

And actually color is a good guide to the healthfulness of a plant food, since generally more colorful foods contain carotenoids and anthocyanins which have positive health benefits for humans.

 

[trophy33]

Foods available in grocery stores or restaurants are from species known to be safe to eat to humans

Actually, that are processed and bred to be relatively safe to humans. You cannot eat even the ones in restaurants, like beans, without this processing and live for long. Because you are not herbivore and your digestive system cannot deal with them.

 

[FireDragon76]

Actually, that are processed and bred to be relatively safe to humans. You cannot eat even the ones in restaurants, like beans, without this processing and live for long.

Only a few species of beans are actually toxic raw, like kidney beans. Most beans eaten raw would just pass through your body undigested.

Most lectins have no significant negative biological effects on humans. It's wrong and false to suggest lectins in commonly eaten foods are harmful. There's no good evidence for it. Only a few lectins are actually toxic, and those are destroyed through ordinary cooking.

Because you are not herbivore and your digestive system cannot deal with them.

I never said humans are herbivores. Humans can eat a wide variety of foods. You seem to be trying to appeal to a naturalistic fallacy. I'm not arguing humans are designed to be anything, merely that a plant-based diet is adequate for human health.