Do all of the Christians who account themselves "Traditional" in their theology accept that the real presence is a physical reality?

[David Kent]

Hi friend. With respect, I think you may have missed my question in this reply. The question isn't "Which modern group could these people be said to belong to?" (e.g., whether they are Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.), but rather "Why is there a need to identify groups who clearly originated before the 'official' start of Protestantism in the 16th century with later Protestant groups, despite any differences between the groups who are claiming them and these 'pre-Protestant' groups? What is wrong with just being whatever it is you are yourselves, without having to call these earlier groups your ancestors when your theology and praxis doesn't match?"

Is that clearer? I hope so. It is confusing to me because, as an example, when my Church declares some other group from outside of ourselves to be Orthodox (i.e., an individual non-Coptic saint, or a group of them, or an entire Church), it is a way of affirming that, for us, their faith and our faith is the the same. We see our faith in theirs. I don't see where that same connection is if, for instance, the group you are talking about has practices that reveal a fundamental difference in mindset to the group you are claiming that they are a part of, as in, e.g., The Liturgist's point regarding pedobaptism vs. credobaptism in post #157. To be sure, there are differences in praxis between the different Orthodox churches (most infamously, perhaps, the Armenian use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist as their normative way of making it, cf. the rest of the Orthodox using leavened bread), but they don't really reveal a difference in mindset once their reason is explored (for the Armenians, I'm told that leaven represents sin, and so as Christ has no sin, there is no liven in their Eucharist; I've heard the exact opposite from the Syrians, who were actually out of communion with the Armenians for several centuries over this and related issues, as they've explained to me that it is because Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world that their bread is leavened; you will note, I hope, that the explanation as to what leaven therefore represents is actually the same, so there is not actually a disagreement at the root of this difference in practice between the two ancient Orthodox churches in question). From what I understand, the differences between churches that practice credo- vs. pedobaptism in the non-Orthodox world are not really like that, as I have definitely dealt with Protestants of some kind on this very forum who have openly voiced the opinion that pedobaptism is not just wrong, but some kind of affront to God, or maybe even evil.

I don't know about you, but when I encounter another group with which my Church disagrees on matters of faith who also call us evil (or damned, or what have you) for what we believe and do instead of what they believe and do (heyyyyyy, neo-Chalcedonians! ), my first reaction is definitely not to say "These are our ancestors!"

OK. I call myself baptist with a small b.

 

[FireDragon76]

The leavened vs. unleavened bread thing always baffled me how anybody could think it mattered.

I just prefer the little mass-produced unleavened wafers because any time anybody has given me leavened bread, it's just been difficult to not choke on it. However, outside of Lutherans or Episcopalians, they usually go with something more "authentic". They usually use chewy, whole wheat bread, typically some kind of pita bread. I guess the think it's "not Catholic".

 

[dzheremi]

The leavened vs. unleavened bread thing always baffled me how anybody could think it mattered.

I'm not sure why anyone would think it matters now, when the Syrians and the Armenians have been reconciled to one another for centuries, but then I think that's more of an active debate outside of my communion than inside of it, so who knows. I don't keep up with arguments between, e.g., EO and RCs, since none of them concern my communion in the first place. From what little I understand from reading Mor Bar Salibi's Against the Armenians, a 12th-century polemic written by the Syriac Orthodox bishop of Amid (modern Diyarbakir, Turkey), the Syrians of the time objected to what they saw as the 'Judaic' practice of using unleavened bread, apparently unaware (as the Chalcedonians and others were also unaware) that this practice was old enough among the Armenians to pre-date Chalcedon itself (I can't remember the title of the work in which I saw them, as it was very old and anyway given in transliterated Armenian, but I've seen quotes concerning their practice and rationale for using unleavened bread from Armenian bishops dating back to the 4th century).

I just prefer the little mass-produced unleavened wafers because any time anybody has given me leavened bread, it's just been difficult to not choke on it. However, outside of Lutherans or Episcopalians, they usually go with something more "authentic". They usually use chewy, whole wheat bread, typically some kind of pita bread. I guess the think it's "not Catholic".

Without getting into anyone's preferences one way or another, one reason why this wouldn't work in a practical sense in the Coptic tradition is that the baking of the prosphora/orban is itself ritualized, with certain hymns and other prayers recited while kneading the dough, baking the bread, transferring it to a rack to cool, etc. If all of those steps are gone because we start using pre-made, mass produced products, then what happens to the ritual aspect? Do we simply say a quick, generic prayer while opening the shipping box that contains the pre-made elements that we've ordered? That's hardly a real substitute for what we already do, and I think we're lucky in that the temperament of the people themselves is overall not such that they accept having less so long as things are made easier in the process. If that were the case, we'd have liturgies more akin to what you see in the average ('ordinary', in the liturgical sense of that word) Roman Catholic parish or other church that hits 60 or 90 minutes on the dot before dismissing the people. The one time we had a 90-minute (well, closer to 110-minute, but who's counting!) liturgy in my parish back in NM, because our priest had to be in a wedding in a different state by 1 PM that day, everything was so abbreviated that the people (definitely including me) were confused. There are provisions made for shortening the liturgy by skipping over anything that says "The priest may...", or "Alternatively, the people may...", but even then, we're used to a certain rhythm to our liturgy, so when that gets messed with, even for an unavoidable reason, it tends to throw people off. Not to mention how super-weird it feels to be having the post-liturgy agape meal around 10:30 AM as opposed to around 1 PM. I love the agape meal, but my appetite for Egyptian jute soup (molokheya) or spicy Egyptian pastrami dishes and fava beans has not exactly peaked at 10:30 AM. Egyptian 'lasagna' (macarona bechamel) is delicious all the time, however. I'll eat that all day.

Dang it, I've gone and made myself hungry now. Hahaha.

 

[prodromos]

The leavened vs. unleavened bread thing always baffled me how anybody could think it mattered

There is a significant amount of symbolism in the EO use of leavened bread, so when Rome stopped using leavened bread between the 6th to 8th century, it was akin to changing their theology from the point of view of the rest of the Church.
The use of unleavened bread in other ancient Churches was not an issue because they had their own accompanying symbolism and theology about its use. It was part of their Tradition. Rome, on the other hand, abruptly changed their Tradition.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I'm not sure why anyone would think it matters now, when the Syrians and the Armenians have been reconciled to one another for centuries, but then I think that's more of an active debate outside of my communion than inside of it, so who knows. I don't keep up with arguments between, e.g., EO and RCs, since none of them concern my communion in the first place. From what little I understand from reading Mor Bar Salibi's Against the Armenians, a 12th-century polemic written by the Syriac Orthodox bishop of Amid (modern Diyarbakir, Turkey), the Syrians of the time objected to what they saw as the 'Judaic' practice of using unleavened bread, apparently unaware (as the Chalcedonians and others were also unaware) that this practice was old enough among the Armenians to pre-date Chalcedon itself (I can't remember the title of the work in which I saw them, as it was very old and anyway given in transliterated Armenian, but I've seen quotes concerning their practice and rationale for using unleavened bread from Armenian bishops dating back to the 4th century).



Without getting into anyone's preferences one way or another, one reason why this wouldn't work in a practical sense in the Coptic tradition is that the baking of the prosphora/orban is itself ritualized, with certain hymns and other prayers recited while kneading the dough, baking the bread, transferring it to a rack to cool, etc. If all of those steps are gone because we start using pre-made, mass produced products, then what happens to the ritual aspect? Do we simply say a quick, generic prayer while opening the shipping box that contains the pre-made elements that we've ordered?

. Not to mention how super-weird it feels to be having the post-liturgy agape meal around 10:30 AM as opposed to around 1 PM. I love the agape meal, but my appetite for Egyptian jute soup (molokheya) or spicy Egyptian pastrami dishes and fava beans has not exactly peaked at 10:30 AM. Egyptian 'lasagna' (macarona bechamel) is delicious all the time, however. I'll eat that all day.

Dang it, I've gone and made myself hungry now. Hahaha.

When I was in seminary, first-years made the prosphora for the week. We were making 20-30 loaves so it was a group effort. While we were doing it, we would hand a Vespers book around and read that for the 60-90 minutes it took to prep the loaves.

And now I'm hungry reading this. Our local Coptic festival is in mid-September so that's something my wife and I look forward to!

 

[dzheremi]

When I was in seminary, first-years made the prosphora for the week. We were making 20-30 loaves so it was a group effort. While we were doing it, we would hand a Vespers book around and read that for the 60-90 minutes it took to prep the loaves.

And now I'm hungry reading this. Our local Coptic festival is in mid-September so that's something my wife and I look forward to!

You are a lucky man in many ways, my friend! There is no Coptic festival in my area (not surprising, since whatever Coptic population there is apparently isn't concentrated in Sacramento proper, or else I would've conceivably gotten a response to my requests as to where everyone is...), though the Armenians have apparently made enough of an impression to not only have a parish somewhere in the downtown area, but also to get their amazing Gata bread into a few of the local grocery stores, where it absolutely blows whatever else people have with tea or coffee out of the water!

Do you have a favorite Egyptian dish you are looking forward to having? I miss having koshary (the Egyptian breakfast and now anytime-meal of champions) and macarona bechammel (I called it Egyptian lasagna before, but tha's only because I couldn't remember the proper western name: pastitsio), though I'm going to guess my waistline doesn't!

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

You are a lucky man in many ways, my friend! There is no Coptic festival in my area (not surprising, since whatever Coptic population there is apparently isn't concentrated in Sacramento proper, or else I would've conceivably gotten a response to my requests as to where everyone is...), though the Armenians have apparently made enough of an impression to not only have a parish somewhere in the downtown area, but also to get their amazing Gata bread into a few of the local grocery stores, where it absolutely blows whatever else people have with tea or coffee out of the water!

Do you have a favorite Egyptian dish you are looking forward to having? I miss having koshary (the Egyptian breakfast and now anytime-meal of champions) and macarona bechammel (I called it Egyptian lasagna before, but tha's only because I couldn't remember the proper western name: pastitsio), though I'm going to guess my waistline doesn't!

Doesn't that mean you need a road trip? My wife and I love koshary and the spinach bechamel. Oh completely forgot about Om Ali.

Here's the local menu!

Online Ordering | Egyptian Festival

Order authentic Egyptian cuisine for pickup or delivery

www.egyptianfestivalhamptonva.org

 

[dzheremi]

Hahaha. You know, at this point I think I would take a roadtrip to VA to have some of that food. I've never had spinach bechamel, but I bet that's amazing. And seeing the Egyptian okra makes me want to make some more for myself. It's the one Egyptian dish I feel relatively confident in making even though I'm not Egyptian, because it is so basic. I've never thought to include meat in it, though, because I usually make it for fasting times.

Can't say I'm a fan of Om Ali (I've never liked coconut, so it's a bit of a non-starter), but I remember those little butter cookies being pretty good the few times I've had them. It looks like you and your wife will have plenty to enjoy at the food festival! Do you also go on the church tour? I always made a point of doing that whenever I made it to the Glendi festival back home in northern California, where Fr. Lawrence would present various aspects of the EO faith and practice using examples from inside St. Seraphim of Sarov Church. It was quite nice!

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Hahaha. You know, at this point I think I would take a roadtrip to VA to have some of that food. I've never had spinach bechamel, but I bet that's amazing. And seeing the Egyptian okra makes me want to make some more for myself. It's the one Egyptian dish I feel relatively confident in making even though I'm not Egyptian, because it is so basic. I've never thought to include meat in it, though, because I usually make it for fasting times.

Can't say I'm a fan of Om Ali (I've never liked coconut, so it's a bit of a non-starter), but I remember those little butter cookies being pretty good the few times I've had them. It looks like you and your wife will have plenty to enjoy at the food festival! Do you also go on the church tour? I always made a point of doing that whenever I made it to the Glendi festival back home in northern California, where Fr. Lawrence would present various aspects of the EO faith and practice using examples from inside St. Seraphim of Sarov Church. It was quite nice!

My parish and St. Georges are only about 15 minutes away from each other and we support each other's festivals.

About 15 people came out from St. Georges to our festival and I got to do the church tour for them and another 40 people. Someone asked about the Coptic church so I had to put on my historian's hat and describe Chalcedon and the differences between EO and OO. The Coptic priest was pretty satisfied that I covered it appropriately

 

[The Liturgist]

Hahaha. You know, at this point I think I would take a roadtrip to VA to have some of that food. I've never had spinach bechamel, but I bet that's amazing. And seeing the Egyptian okra makes me want to make some more for myself. It's the one Egyptian dish I feel relatively confident in making even though I'm not Egyptian, because it is so basic. I've never thought to include meat in it, though, because I usually make it for fasting times.

Can't say I'm a fan of Om Ali (I've never liked coconut, so it's a bit of a non-starter), but I remember those little butter cookies being pretty good the few times I've had them. It looks like you and your wife will have plenty to enjoy at the food festival! Do you also go on the church tour? I always made a point of doing that whenever I made it to the Glendi festival back home in northern California, where Fr. Lawrence would present various aspects of the EO faith and practice using examples from inside St. Seraphim of Sarov Church. It was quite nice!

I didn’t know you were from Northern California. I went to high school in Paradise, although I lived in Chico. I do hope they rebuild that covered bridge on the Honey Run Drive to Paradise, which was the slow and scenic alternative to the Skyway.

 

[dzheremi]

I didn’t know you were from Northern California. I went to high school in Paradise, although I lived in Chico. I do hope they rebuild that covered bridge on the Honey Run Drive to Paradise, which was the slow and scenic alternative to the Skyway.

Well, 'Northern' in the sense of 'north of the bay area', which to people outside of the state (and I'm sure plenty in state's southern half) is a bit of a black hole. We weren't/aren't as far north as you were (my father was born in Santa Rosa, my brother still lives there, etc.), though I've been through Paradise several times pre-fire, and to Chico as often as there was ever a reason to go there.

 

[FireDragon76]

There is a significant amount of symbolism in the EO use of leavened bread, so when Rome stopped using leavened bread between the 6th to 8th century, it was akin to changing their theology from the point of view of the rest of the Church.
The use of unleavened bread in other ancient Churches was not an issue because they had their own accompanying symbolism and theology about its use. It was part of their Tradition. Rome, on the other hand, abruptly changed their Tradition.

I think there is a tendency in western religion to be practical and pragmatic. Protestantism being perhaps the apotheosis of that, but it's also present in Catholicism, with things like low masses, which as far as I know, aren't really a thing in Orthodoxy. And I wouldn't be surprised if unleavened bread had something to do with that, as well.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well, 'Northern' in the sense of 'north of the bay area', which to people outside of the state (and I'm sure plenty in state's southern half) is a bit of a black hole. We weren't/aren't as far north as you were (my father was born in Santa Rosa, my brother still lives there, etc.), though I've been through Paradise several times pre-fire, and to Chico as often as there was ever a reason to go there.

I have been to Santa Rosa many times and love it. Although I now live in an oceanfront apartment near Los Angeles, which is a huge blessing I never thought I would receive, and spend much of my time in Las Vegas and the Mormon lands to the East, where there are surprisingly viable Christian communities, and also in the most miserable city in California, Needles, which needs all the ministry it can get. It could be a lovely, highly desirable riverfront town like nearby Laughlin or Boulder City or Lake Havasu but instead is a largely derelicit community of largely derelict people who require our prayers, that survives only because the old ATSF mainline to Chicago runs through there, and it is a crew change point. I think Amtrak also uses either it or Kingman as a crew change point for the Southwest Chief, which follows the route of the Super Chief and the other fabled Santa Fe passenger trains, like the El Capitan, which it closely resembles.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well, 'Northern' in the sense of 'north of the bay area', which to people outside of the state (and I'm sure plenty in state's southern half) is a bit of a black hole. We weren't/aren't as far north as you were (my father was born in Santa Rosa, my brother still lives there, etc.), though I've been through Paradise several times pre-fire, and to Chico as often as there was ever a reason to go there.

By the way, I absolutely love the North Coast of California, the whole region from Santa Rosa right through to Crescent City. Oddly I’ve never been to Redding or Red Bluff; instead of visiting Mount Shasta, we liked to visit Mount Lassen and also the Whiskeytown Unit. If you take I-5 instead of the 99 to Chico, there is a charming town called Corning, where one can sample the most extraordinary selection of olives. On the central coast I particularly love the Danish town of Solvang, and Santa Barbara and Ventura, and to a lesser extent Monterrey.

 

[dzheremi]

By the way, I absolutely love the North Coast of California, the whole region from Santa Rosa right through to Crescent City. Oddly I’ve never been to Redding or Red Bluff; instead of visiting Mount Shasta, we liked to visit Mount Lassen and also the Whiskeytown Unit. If you take I-5 instead of the 99 to Chico, there is a charming town called Corning, where one can sample the most extraordinary selection of olives. On the central coast I particularly love the Danish town of Solvang, and Santa Barbara and Ventura, and to a lesser extent Monterrey.

Red Bluff is boring, but proved to be a good place to go to escape the Tubbs Fire back in 2017, which I and a few other family members did at the time in response to evacuation orders. I don't remember much that stuck out about it as a place (something about wondering if the family members and friends who decided to stay behind were being killed or made homeless kind of limits the ability to take in the sights; we were very blessed in that regard, as my brother and his family got evacuated no less than three times, but miraculously did not lose the house; the same thing cannot be said for everyone I know, though thanks be to God they all made it out alive), though it was definitely a trip to see a Radioshack store up and running there. (I just checked online, and it has apparently since closed.)

I think Solvang is the only place you've mentioned that I don't recall visiting or at least passing through once. I've heard it's very unique and beautiful, but I just don't have much of an occasion to travel that far south these days, particularly as my own health problems limit me in that regard. The mission there looks very beautiful to me, though I'm definitely biased regarding that architectural style, given that I grew up with it in my backyard (together with the historical Russian outpost of Fort Ross, which is technically closer to my hometown than the nearest Spanish mission, San Francisco Solano in Sonoma, which was the last of the missions founded in the state).

 

[The Liturgist]

Red Bluff is boring, but proved to be a good place to go to escape the Tubbs Fire back in 2017, which I and a few other family members did at the time in response to evacuation orders. I don't remember much that stuck out about it as a place (something about wondering if the family members and friends who decided to stay behind were being killed or made homeless kind of limits the ability to take in the sights; we were very blessed in that regard, as my brother and his family got evacuated no less than three times, but miraculously did not lose the house; the same thing cannot be said for everyone I know, though thanks be to God they all made it out alive), though it was definitely a trip to see a Radioshack store up and running there. (I just checked online, and it has apparently since closed.)

I think Solvang is the only place you've mentioned that I don't recall visiting or at least passing through once. I've heard it's very unique and beautiful, but I just don't have much of an occasion to travel that far south these days, particularly as my own health problems limit me in that regard. The mission there looks very beautiful to me, though I'm definitely biased regarding that architectural style, given that I grew up with it in my backyard (together with the historical Russian outpost of Fort Ross, which is technically closer to my hometown than the nearest Spanish mission, San Francisco Solano in Sonoma, which was the last of the missions founded in the state).

There are lots of Russians and Orthodox churches in Northern California and the Central Valley, and also lots of Assyrians, whereas I think the Copts are more concentrated in Southern California, where His Eminence Metropolitan Serapion is based.

By the way, I really love Metropolitan Serapion. The first time I met him, he was still a bishop, but I to my momentary chagrin assumed he was a Metropolitan like his Syriac Orthodox counterpart Mor Eugene Kaplan, and addressed him as “Your Eminence” and he was very gracious - only later did I realize while looking up events at St. Mark’s Cathedral that he was a bishop and thus His Grace, but fortunately he was soon promoted, and when I have told this story to some Coptic friends they tend to find it a bit amusing, that I unwittingly predicted Metropolitan Serapion’s promotion.