Do all of the Christians who account themselves "Traditional" in their theology accept that the real presence is a physical reality?

[The Liturgist]

Nearly every part of France had it's own regional dialect. At one time much of eastern France Switzerland and Italy used Romansch or Rumansch, or various other spellings of it. Now used only Switzerland, seems.

As to Peter Waldo. It is likely that the Catholics and Orthodox lord about him as they did with the Waldensians Bogomils, Paulikians, ect saying that they worshipped two gods.

Firstly, the Orthodox Church never had any contact with the Waldensians, but I myself have always had a deep admiration for them, including the mass martyrdom they experienced in the event known as the Piedmont Easter. Fortunately some survived and escaped to Switzerland, where they embraced Reformed theology. There is a Waldensian congregation in the PCUSA, in North Carolina if I recall correctly. Furthermore, in a nice turn of events given the martyrdom, the Waldensian Church merged with the Italian Methodist Church, adopted Wesleyan theology (I venerate John Wesley as a saint), and is now the main Protestant church throughout Italy.

The Bogomils were Docetic heretics as were the Paulicans, and contrary to the Landmark Baptist narrative neither group has any connection with the Waldensians. In the case of the Paulicans, don’t take my word for it; you can find online the mostly intact Book of Keys, which outlines their doctrine. And no one says the Bogomils, Paulicans etc worship two gods. That was not their error. Rather, they believe that Jesus Christ is not the son of the creator of this world, who is an evil entity in their theology, an incompetent demiurge, but rather that His father is the God of a higher purely spiritual realm usually referred to as the Pleroma which we must escape the material world in order to reach. In their system, matter is evil. Some of these sects are dualists, in the manner of the Zoroastrians of Persia, in that they attribute considerable power to their equivalent of the devil, but none of them worship the evil entity, although some non-Christian sects related to Docetism as well as some Syrian Christian heresies such as the Ophites regard the serpent in the Garden of Eden as being benevolent, imparting secret salvific knowledge. We know this largely because of surviving apocryphal scriptures written by these sects, including much of the material found buried in the Nag Hammadi cave in Egypt in the 1940s by some Bedouins, who frustratingly burned some of it as fuel before realizing its value, which drives scholars myself who have an interest in apocrypha a bit bonkers.

Now, Landmark Baptists incorrectly believe that several of these sects were proto-Protestant, but this is just not the case, as is proven by the archaeological record in terms of their writings, and the historical record. The Protestant movement originated in the early Renaissance period in Western Europe in response to specific practices the Roman Catholic Church engaged in at the time, such as the sale of indulgences, a lack of proper catechesis, et cetera, which were largely rectified in the counter-Reformation, after which time Catholics were undeservedly persecuted in some Protestant countries, particularly Great Britain, until after the Peace of Westphalia and the Enlightenment. Indeed much of the original raison d’etre for the founding of what is now the State of Maryland by Lord Baltimore was to create a haven for Roman Catholics, who were persecuted to the same extent as the Puritans who had settled in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, and the Quakers who had settled in Pennsylvania, and the Anglo-Dutch Baptists, led by an ancestor of mine, who settled in Long Island, New York.

 

[The Liturgist]

The following information from Wikipedia proposes an older origin of the Waldensians:

"Though arising to prominence in the 12th century, some evidence suggests the existence of the Waldenses even before the time of Peter Waldo as early as 1100.[36] Pope Alexander in 1167 at the Third Council of the Lateran lamented the Waldenses as a "pest of long existence".[37][38] While the Inquisitor Reinerius Saccho in the 12th century also spoke about the dangers of the Waldenses for among other reasons its antiquity "some say that it has lasted from the time of Sylvester, others, from the time of the Apostles."[39] In the 17th century, Waldensian Pastor Henri Arnaud stated that "the Vaudois are, in fact, descended from those refugees from Italy, who, after St Paul had there preached the gospel abandoned their beautiful country, like the woman mentioned in the apocalypse and fled to those wild mountains where they have to this day, handed down the gospel from father to son in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by St Paul.[40]

"The Waldensian movement was characterized from the beginning by lay preaching, voluntary poverty, and strict adherence to the Bible. Between 1175 and 1185, Waldo either commissioned a cleric from Lyon to translate the New Testament into the vernacular—the Arpitan(Franco-Provençal) language[41]—or was himself involved in this translation work.[citation needed]"

Waldensians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is probably impossible to assess their relationship to older non-Catholic movements in the West starting with the Arian German kingdoms established in the collapsing Western Empire in the 5th century or other movements.

The origins of the Waldensians are indeed fascinating. However, there is no evidence to associate the early Waldensians with any ancient heresy, certainly nothing that would indicate a link with Arianism, Docetism or Gnosticism, with the possible but somewhat less important error of Docetism, in that it is said that the Waldensians believed that any righteous Christian man could administer the sacraments such as Baptism and the Eucharist, the problem with that, and Donatism in general, being that there are in fact no truly righteous men, so if we make righteousness a requirement for sacramental efficacy, then we don’t have sacraments.

However, I myself am of the view that most likely, the Waldensians were fairly close to modern Protestantism, because we know they accepted Calvinist theology without hesitation after receiving asylum in Switzerland, and the Waldensians in the US are a part of the PCUSA, albeit their community strikes me as more theologically conservative than most.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way @David Kent have you read the Statement Of Purpose for Traditional Theology yet? Because if not you should do that now, as members are asked to read it before posting here. Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

 

[David Kent]

The Waldensians themselves claimed their separation from Rome in the time of Sylvester. In their "Noble Lesson" c AD 1160 they mentioned Sylvester a number of times and that was about 800 years later.

The Paulicians or Paulikians were started by a man who had been a Manachean who did believe in good God and an evil God. A passing traveller from Palestine left him some scriptures, mainly the Pauline epistles. We are not told but probably with some teaching and some prayer. Anyway he was converted and burnt his manachean books, and got a number of followers and they grew. The Byzntine church persecuted them and at one time killed 100,000 of them. They were eventually exiled to Europe and settled in Philopolis and from that they become known as the Poplicani, eventually corrupted to Publicani. From them sprang the Bogomils, mainly in Bulgaria. One pastor said that they proved to be heretic as they went over to the Turks. But the Turks allowed then to keep their religion at first. The alternative was the Inquisition.

If anyone has Gibbons decline and fall of the Roman Empire, the paulicians are in Chapter 23 I believe. I have the abridged version and that is one of the chapters left out, unfortunately.

The Paulicians eventually joined up with the Waldensians and other western groups such as Hussites and others in the south of France.

 

[David Kent]

By the way @David Kent have you read the Statement Of Purpose for Traditional Theology yet? Because if not you should do that now, as members are asked to read it before posting here. Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

No I hadn't. Thank you for the link. I try only to post history as I read it and do not intend to attack anyone or group persanall. I will try to be more careful in future.

 

[David Kent]

I did read that the university of Cambridge had a number of volumes of Waldensian writings collected in the time of Oliver Cromwell and that one of these, I can't remember whether it was vol 21or 22, went missing sometime after.

 

[David Kent]

I did read a book on the Bogomils in which the author said repeatedly that they worshipped two gods, but didn't give a scrap of evidence for it.

I was once on a site where a lady who had left the RCC for the JWs, then left them and joined an evangelixal church and left that and went back to the RCC. She was quite insistent that the Waldensians worshipped two gods.

 

[David Kent]

The origins of the Waldensians are indeed fascinating. However, there is no evidence to associate the early Waldensians with any ancient heresy, certainly nothing that would indicate a link with Arianism, Docetism or Gnosticism, with the possible but somewhat less important error of Docetism, in that it is said that the Waldensians believed that any righteous Christian man could administer the sacraments such as Baptism and the Eucharist, the problem with that, and Donatism in general, being that there are in fact no truly righteous men, so if we make righteousness a requirement for sacramental efficacy, then we don’t have sacraments.

However, I myself am of the view that most likely, the Waldensians were fairly close to modern Protestantism, because we know they accepted Calvinist theology without hesitation after receiving asylum in Switzerland, and the Waldensians in the US are a part of the PCUSA, albeit their community strikes me as more theologically conservative than most.

I did read once that the "heretics" looked back on the Evangelical teachings of Augustine.

They must have had the scriptures to enable them to keep their teaching throughout the centuries. I wish I was able to get and and readupmon these groups. I am not allowed to drive anymore and dont get out very often.

I did read that in about AD1000, it was said that the heretics had black teeth and hairy tongues. A traveller wrote that when he met the "heretics" he wrote that they were not only normal but every child could read and write, which at that time many priests and monks could not read.

 

[The Liturgist]

I did read a book on the Bogomils in which the author said repeatedly that they worshipped two gods, but didn't give a scrap of evidence for it.

I was once on a site where a lady who had left the RCC for the JWs, then left them and joined an evangelixal church and left that and went back to the RCC. She was quite insistent that the Waldensians worshipped two gods.

Well the author of the book concerning the Bogomils was misinformed, in that he clearly failed to understand what dualism means. I don’t know of a single dualist religion in which the practitioners actually worship both entities; rather, dualism refers to a system wherein you have an evil deity who actually has some power, who in most of these religions is guaranteed to be defeated in the end, but who is not already defeated like the devil in Christianity. Examples of these include Zoroastrianism and the various Gnostic religions like Manichaenism, Bogomilism, Paulicanism, Mandaeism and so on, although the Gnostic religions add a twist by declaring matter itself to be evil and stressing a matter vs. spirit dualisn, which in Manichaenism and some of the other later sects is also likened to a light vs. darkness dualism, as in Zoroastrianism. It is interesting to note that according to St. Irenaeus of Lyons, a second century Christian bishop and theologian, the first Gnostic sect was that founded by Simon Magus, and of course the word Magus is a Hellenization of the word Mobed, referring to a priest in the Zoroastrian religion. Also given some of the rituals practiced by Zoroastrian clergy, it is unsurprising the word also is the origin of “Magic.”

So I think its a good thing we have no solid evidence linking the Waldensians to the Bogomils or any other heretical sect, such as the Albigensians, Paulicans, etc, since it indicates that the Waldensians were a bona fide reform movement in response to the corruption which plagued the RCC during the period following the schism with the Eastern Orthodox until the Counter Reformation, a period in which the sale of indulgences, the Avignon Schism, the Fourth Crusade, under which a crusade was organized supposedly to defeat the Islamic regime restored to power in the Holy Land by Saladin, but whose actual purpose was to facilitate a Venetian conquest of the Byzantine Empire, which in the end did not last long, as the Greeks were able to reassert political control, but the Byzantine state was critically weakened and its capitulation either to the Catholics or its conquest by the Ottoman Empire became inevitable. In the end, the people of the Byzantine Empire opted for the latter option, enduring centuries of Turkocratia in order to preserve their faith, rather than going along with the integration of the Greek Orthodox Church into the Roman Catholic Church in a manner subordinate to the Pope as had been arranged by a majority of the Byzantine bishops at the Council of Florence, with only one bishop in attendance, St. Mark of Ephesus, dissenting (and he successfully persuaded the people to reject the council). That happened in 1430, and like clockwork, the Turks invaded and conquered 23 years later.

But it is worth noting that beginning with the counter-Reformation, the RCC discontinued many of the practices Martin Luther and others found so offensive, for example, the sale of indulgences was banned. And after the 30 years war, also known as the Wars of Religion, was concluded with the Peace of Westphalia, the amount of sectarian violence between Protestants, Lutherans, Anglicans and Calvinists began a steady decline until the present, where it only exists, conflated with politics, to a slight extent, in Northern Ireland, although not as much as during the Troubles.

 

[The Liturgist]

No I hadn't. Thank you for the link. I try only to post history as I read it and do not intend to attack anyone or group persanall. I will try to be more careful in future.

Well in that case, welcome to Traditional Theology! This forum is an extremely friendly part of ChristianForums, as it is comprised mainly of members of the traditional Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox churches who desire to learn more about each other and desire ecumenical dialogue and who have a strong appreciation for the liturgical arts (beautiful worship services, church music, church architecture, and so on). Thus a number of threads, like this one, are either about the liturgy or liturgical or sacramental theology, and other frequent topics of discussion are patristics and church history. And we have had some Baptists participate here before, for example, my friend @Der Alte , who is also a veteran of the US military and an ordained minister, if I recall correctly.

 

[The Liturgist]

I did read that the university of Cambridge had a number of volumes of Waldensian writings collected in the time of Oliver Cromwell and that one of these, I can't remember whether it was vol 21or 22, went missing sometime after.

If you could get me information on those volumes, I would be in your debt, because there is an extreme scarcity of information concerning Waldensian liturgy and theology before their integration with the Calvinists in Switzerland. Most of what we know about them consists of the persecutions they endured, including the mass murder known as the Piedmont Easter.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Paulicians or Paulikians were started by a man who had been a Manachean who did believe in good God and an evil God. A passing traveller from Palestine left him some scriptures, mainly the Pauline epistles. We are not told but probably with some teaching and some prayer. Anyway he was converted and burnt his manachean books, and got a number of followers and they grew. The Byzntine church persecuted them and at one time killed 100,000 of them. They were eventually exiled to Europe and settled in Philopolis and from that they become known as the Poplicani, eventually corrupted to Publicani. From them sprang the Bogomils, mainly in Bulgaria. One pastor said that they proved to be heretic as they went over to the Turks. But the Turks allowed then to keep their religion at first. The alternative was the Inquisition.

I have come across no records of any Byzantine mass murder of Paulicans, nor does the story you provide seem compatible with the main surviving theological text of theirs, The Book of Keys, which shows a very strong Manichaean influence.

It should also be stressed that the majority of instances of violence attributed to the Byzantine church were actually conducted by the Byzantine government, in most cases over the objections of the church, or occurred during those periods when the Patriarch of Constantinople was a heretic, for example, under Nestorius, or later the Monothelites and Iconoclasts. The Iconoclasts especially were extremely violent towards the Iconodules. Most of the violence, however, for example, the murder of Syriac Orthodox Christians in the early sixth century, was the result of the Emperor, in that case, Emperor Justinian, who went from marrying an Oriental Orthodox woman and embracing many aspects of Oriental Orthodoxy including the hymn Ho Monogenes and the theology of Theopaschitism, to rejecting Theopaschitism in favor of a borderline heterodox position known as Apthartodocetism and killing large numbers of Syriac Orthodox clergy. St. Jacob Baradaeus was able to survive primarily because he was tipped off by Empress Theodora, not to be confused with an earlier empress by the same name, who in 406 AD, did conspire to have St. John Chrysostom, the most famous and beloved Patriarch of Constantinople, exiled, after St. Chrysostom objected in a firery sermon to her lavish and decadent lifestyle (she owned a toilet or chamber pot, probably the former as the Romans did have indoor plumbing, made of solid gold), which he viewed as deeply inappropriate given that many of the poor of Byzantion were starving.

By the way, the Paulicans still exist as an ethnic group in Romania and Bulgaria, in that they are of predominantly Armenian descent, and the last of the Paulicans in Armenia voluntarily joined the Orthodox Church (presumably the Armenian Apostolic Church and not the Russian Orthodox Church, given the Armenian ethnicity attributed to the Paulicans). This Armenian ethnicity also makes me doubt the claims of a mass murder of them by the Byzantines given that the Armenians were always independent of the Byzantine Empire, usually its allies, but on some occasions hostilities did break out. Later, after the Byzantines lost control of the area around Antioch, the Armenians moved in and established a second kingdom, the Kingdom of Cilicia, so for a brief period of time there were two Armenian states. This is also partially why there are two Armenian churches spread around the world (the more pressing reason is that when the Soviet Union invaded and conquered Armenia in the mid 1920s, many Armenians began to distrust the church headquartered in Armenia, and switched their allegiance to the Cilician church, which by that time was based in Lebanon).

 

[David Kent]

If you could get me information on those volumes, I would be in your debt, because there is an extreme scarcity of information concerning Waldensian liturgy and theology before their integration with the Calvinists in Switzerland. Most of what we know about them consists of the persecutions they endured, including the mass murder known as the Piedmont Easter.

I dont have any information on that. I read about it some years ago. I have a granddaughter who recently qualified in Cabrige university, she still lives in the city, I will ask her if she can find out something.

In the article I read, it said Cromwell had heard of the persecutions of the Waldensians so he sent ambassadors to the area to collect as many as he could.

The history that most refer to is by Leger, who was a Waldensian himself. I dont know where if can be accessed, though.

Noble Lesson - The Reformation The Noble Lesson of the Waldensians.

Waldensian Treatise on Antichrist – Hast Thou Not Heard usually attributed to Peter Waldo in about AD 1200, despite what it says on here. It is usually given in the Waldensian language with a translation into French by Leger.


I have done a Google search and found:
"Ancient roots of the Waldensians in italy" available as a downloadable pdf
The Books of the Vaudois. The Waldensian Manuscripts Preserved in the Library of Trinity College, Dublin Books of the Vaudois preserved in the university of Dublin.

Google books have a number of items on the Waldensians, including "Waldensian researches." The pastor of a church I used to me a member of, once lent me some books when he knew I was going on holiday to France and that was one of them.

 

[dzheremi]

This conversation is reminding me of some 'Landmark Baptist' weirdness, wherein every heretical group in antiquity is transformed into (proto) Baptists by virtue of their having stood against (these peoples' charicature of) the Catholic Church, no matter how little sense the resulting claim makes with regard to place, time, manner of worship, belief, etc. I don't udnerstand the urge to do this, whether it's the Landmark Baptist position(s) or whatever's being articulated here. What's the point of being a Protestant if that in itself is suddenly not good enough? What's wrong with the historical narrative as it is widely accepted such that you need to make up ancestors for yourselves?

 

[David Kent]

This conversation is reminding me of some 'Landmark Baptist' weirdness, wherein every heretical group in antiquity is transformed into (proto) Baptists by virtue of their having stood against (these peoples' charicature of) the Catholic Church, no matter how little sense the resulting claim makes with regard to place, time, manner of worship, belief, etc. I don't udnerstand the urge to do this, whether it's the Landmark Baptist position(s) or whatever's being articulated here. What's the point of being a Protestant if that in itself is suddenly not good enough? What's wrong with the historical narrative as it is widely accepted such that you need to make up ancestors for yourselves?

If that comment is regarding me. I would just like to say that it doesn't matter to me whether the Waldensians, or other dissenters were Baptist or Presbyterian. What matters to me is that they were faithful witnesses to Salvation only in Christ. AS it happens some say the Waldensians were Baptist and some Presbyterian but they could be Presbyterian Baptists, IMO.

 

[David Kent]

I have come across no records of any Byzantine mass murder of Paulicans, nor does the story you provide seem compatible with the main surviving theological text of theirs, The Book of Keys, which shows a very strong Manichaean influence.

It should also be stressed that the majority of instances of violence attributed to the Byzantine church were actually conducted by the Byzantine government, in most cases over the objections of the church, or occurred during those periods when the Patriarch of Constantinople was a heretic, for example, under Nestorius, or later the Monothelites and Iconoclasts. The Iconoclasts especially were extremely violent towards the Iconodules. Most of the violence, however, for example, the murder of Syriac Orthodox Christians in the early sixth century, was the result of the Emperor, in that case, Emperor Justinian, who went from marrying an Oriental Orthodox woman and embracing many aspects of Oriental Orthodoxy including the hymn Ho Monogenes and the theology of Theopaschitism, to rejecting Theopaschitism in favor of a borderline heterodox position known as Apthartodocetism and killing large numbers of Syriac Orthodox clergy. St. Jacob Baradaeus was able to survive primarily because he was tipped off by Empress Theodora, not to be confused with an earlier empress by the same name, who in 406 AD, did conspire to have St. John Chrysostom, the most famous and beloved Patriarch of Constantinople, exiled, after St. Chrysostom objected in a firery sermon to her lavish and decadent lifestyle (she owned a toilet or chamber pot, probably the former as the Romans did have indoor plumbing, made of solid gold), which he viewed as deeply inappropriate given that many of the poor of Byzantion were starving.

By the way, the Paulicans still exist as an ethnic group in Romania and Bulgaria, in that they are of predominantly Armenian descent, and the last of the Paulicans in Armenia voluntarily joined the Orthodox Church (presumably the Armenian Apostolic Church and not the Russian Orthodox Church, given the Armenian ethnicity attributed to the Paulicans). This Armenian ethnicity also makes me doubt the claims of a mass murder of them by the Byzantines given that the Armenians were always independent of the Byzantine Empire, usually its allies, but on some occasions hostilities did break out. Later, after the Byzantines lost control of the area around Antioch, the Armenians moved in and established a second kingdom, the Kingdom of Cilicia, so for a brief period of time there were two Armenian states. This is also partially why there are two Armenian churches spread around the world (the more pressing reason is that when the Soviet Union invaded and conquered Armenia in the mid 1920s, many Armenians began to distrust the church headquartered in Armenia, and switched their allegiance to the Cilician church, which by that time was based in Lebanon).

I did contact my granddaughter Jemimah but she said she didn't have access to the Library since she graduated. She did do an online search of their index but couldn't find those that I mentioned. She did find some links which I was unable to open on my phone and if I can manage to transfer them to my laptop I will see what they are. meanwhile;

Waldenses | Description, History, & Beliefs

Waldenses, members of a Christian movement that originated in 12th-century France, the devotees of which sought to follow Christ in poverty and simplicity. In modern times the name has been applied to members of a Protestant church that formed when remnants of the earlier movement became Swiss...

www.britannica.com

The Books of the Vaudois : The Waldensian manuscripts preserved in the library of Trinity College, Dublin : With an appendix, containing a correspondence (reprinted from the British Magazine) on the poems of the poor of Lyons, the antiquity and genuineness of the Waldensian literature, and the supposed loss of the Morland Mss. at Cambridge : With Mr. Bradshaw's paper on his recent discovery of them : Todd, James Henthorn : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive also available on Google books.
Google books have a number of other books on them Try History of the Waldensians by Wylie.

 

[The Liturgist]

If that comment is regarding me. I would just like to say that it doesn't matter to me whether the Waldensians, or other dissenters were Baptist or Presbyterian. What matters to me is that they were faithful witnesses to Salvation only in Christ. AS it happens some say the Waldensians were Baptist and some Presbyterian but they could be Presbyterian Baptists, IMO.

Well considering the modern day Waldensian Church in Italy and the ethnically Waldensian parish of the PCUSA in the US both baptize infants, I think it is highly unlikely that the Waldensians were credobaptist. We have to remember that the Waldensians chose to adopt Calvinist theology twice, first when migrating to Switzerland, and again when migrating to the US, when they had a golden opportunity to restore any beliefs they might have regarded as secondary and moved away from in order to be accepted by the Calvinists in Switzerland. And in Italy, since merging with the Methodists, they have adopted a Wesleyan theology, probably in response to some of the less popular aspects of Calvinism in contemporary society, but they did not adopt credo baptism, despite this being available to them.

As a descendant of the leader of the first group of Baptist settlers in North America, I speak with some confidence in asserting that the concept of credobaptism in the modern era emerged with the Anabaptists. In antiquity, there was one sect known as the Hydroparastae who viewed baptism as a sacrament that was to be repeated every Sunday, who are related to the modern day Mandaeans, who are not Christian but who are related to some of the docetic sects of early Christianity, although my recollection is that some Hydroparastae or Hemerobaptists as they were also called were Christian. This was a highly unusual aspect of their belief system, which is why St. Epiphanius of Salamis remarks on it in his catalogue of early sects outside of the mainstream Christian Church, the Panarion (a Greek word meaning “medicine chest”, which I would translate as “First aid kit”, as it likened each sect to a venomous or otherwise noxious animal). And it should also be stressed that the fourth century church burned no one at the stake and engaged in no ecclesiastical violence; indeed when Emperor Theodosius ordered the execution of a noted Gnostic in Spain, several bishops including St. Ambrose of Milan, arguably the most important fourth century Latin church father (since Saints John Cassian, Vincent of Lerins and Augustine of Hippo did not become well known, nor write the majority of their books, until the fifth century) wrote to him protesting the decision.

 

[Andrewn]

Well considering the modern day Waldensian Church in Italy and the ethnically Waldensian parish of the PCUSA in the US both baptize infants, I think it is highly unlikely that the Waldensians were credobaptist. We have to remember that the Waldensians chose to adopt Calvinist theology twice, first when migrating to Switzerland, and again when migrating to the US,

Do you consider the Hugenots direct successors of the Waldensians?

As a descendant of the leader of the first group of Baptist settlers in North America, I speak with some confidence in asserting that the concept of credobaptism in the modern era emerged with the Anabaptists. In antiquity, there was one sect known as the Hydroparastae who viewed baptism as a sacrament that was to be repeated every Sunday, who are related to the modern day Mandaeans, who are not Christian but who are related to some of the docetic sects of early Christianity, although my recollection is that some Hydroparastae or Hemerobaptists as they were also called were Christian.

Wikipedia has the following entry:

"During the medieval age, infant baptism was opposed by the Arnoldists, Waldensians, and Peter of Bruys. The Waldensians also practiced baptism by full immersion.[43][44][45][46] Reinerius mentioned that the Waldensians believed that the ”ablution which is given to infants profits nothing”.[47]

"The Paulicians strongly opposed infant baptism; they only gave baptism to adults after instruction, confession, and repentance.[48] The Bogomils and Cathars also rejected the baptism of infants. However, they did not believe anyone should be baptized in water at all, and instead believed baptism to be of a spiritual character.[49][50]"

Believer's baptism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dzheremi]

If that comment is regarding me. I would just like to say that it doesn't matter to me whether the Waldensians, or other dissenters were Baptist or Presbyterian. What matters to me is that they were faithful witnesses to Salvation only in Christ. AS it happens some say the Waldensians were Baptist and some Presbyterian but they could be Presbyterian Baptists, IMO.

Hi friend. With respect, I think you may have missed my question in this reply. The question isn't "Which modern group could these people be said to belong to?" (e.g., whether they are Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.), but rather "Why is there a need to identify groups who clearly originated before the 'official' start of Protestantism in the 16th century with later Protestant groups, despite any differences between the groups who are claiming them and these 'pre-Protestant' groups? What is wrong with just being whatever it is you are yourselves, without having to call these earlier groups your ancestors when your theology and praxis doesn't match?"

Is that clearer? I hope so. It is confusing to me because, as an example, when my Church declares some other group from outside of ourselves to be Orthodox (i.e., an individual non-Coptic saint, or a group of them, or an entire Church), it is a way of affirming that, for us, their faith and our faith is the the same. We see our faith in theirs. I don't see where that same connection is if, for instance, the group you are talking about has practices that reveal a fundamental difference in mindset to the group you are claiming that they are a part of, as in, e.g., The Liturgist's point regarding pedobaptism vs. credobaptism in post #157. To be sure, there are differences in praxis between the different Orthodox churches (most infamously, perhaps, the Armenian use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist as their normative way of making it, cf. the rest of the Orthodox using leavened bread), but they don't really reveal a difference in mindset once their reason is explored (for the Armenians, I'm told that leaven represents sin, and so as Christ has no sin, there is no liven in their Eucharist; I've heard the exact opposite from the Syrians, who were actually out of communion with the Armenians for several centuries over this and related issues, as they've explained to me that it is because Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world that their bread is leavened; you will note, I hope, that the explanation as to what leaven therefore represents is actually the same, so there is not actually a disagreement at the root of this difference in practice between the two ancient Orthodox churches in question). From what I understand, the differences between churches that practice credo- vs. pedobaptism in the non-Orthodox world are not really like that, as I have definitely dealt with Protestants of some kind on this very forum who have openly voiced the opinion that pedobaptism is not just wrong, but some kind of affront to God, or maybe even evil.

I don't know about you, but when I encounter another group with which my Church disagrees on matters of faith who also call us evil (or damned, or what have you) for what we believe and do instead of what they believe and do (heyyyyyy, neo-Chalcedonians! ), my first reaction is definitely not to say "These are our ancestors!"

 

[David Kent]

If you could get me information on those volumes, I would be in your debt, because there is an extreme scarcity of information concerning Waldensian liturgy and theology before their integration with the Calvinists in Switzerland. Most of what we know about them consists of the persecutions they endured, including the mass murder known as the Piedmont Easter.

I dont have any information on that. I read about it some years ago. I have a granddaughter who recently qualified in Cabrige university, she still lives in the city, I will ask her if she can find out something.

In the article I read, it said Cromwell had heard of the persecutions of the Waldensians so he sent ambassadors to the area to collect as many as he could.

The history that most refer to is by Leger, who was a Waldensian himself. I dont know where if can be accessed, though.

Noble Lesson - The Reformation The Noble Lesson of the Waldensians.

Waldensian Treatise on Antichrist – Hast Thou Not Heard usually attributed to Peter Waldo in about AD 1200, despite what it says on here. It is usually given in the Waldensian language with a translation into French by Leger

I have done a Google search and found:
"Ancient roots of the Waldensians in italy" available as a downloadable pdf
The Books of the Vaudois. The Waldensian Manuscripts Preserved in the Library of Trinity College, Dublin Books of the Vaudois preserved in the university of Dublin.

The Dublin volume seems to be those which were originally in Cambridge. The volume is available on Google play.