Do all of the Christians who account themselves "Traditional" in their theology accept that the real presence is a physical reality?

[FireDragon76]

I think Jan Hus becoming canonized by the Czech Orthodox church probably has more to do with his status as a folk hero, as an ethnic Slav standing up to an empire dominated by ethnic Germans. ("Hus" means "goose" in Czech, BTW). It would certainly be interesting, though, because he was most definitely several hundred years after the schism. He also didn't really speak much about Trinitarian theology.

The restriction of communion in both kinds had more to do with medieval western piety than any doctrine. First, clergy started using fistulae (straws) to distribute the sacrament, then the cup was restricted altogether. This happened during periods of plague, or if the priest was especially scrupulous. It just became a habit in time, and most people no longer thought anything of it. With the doctrine of concomitance, it also wasn't seen as a breach of sacramental integrity (I myself used to have a problem with wheat, and for a while only received communion through the chalice)- it's not strictly speaking, heretical, even if it is irregular.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It just became a habit in time, and most people no longer thought anything of it. With the doctrine of concomitance, it also wasn't seen as a breach of sacramental integrity (I myself used to have a problem with wheat, and for a while only received communion through the chalice)- it's not strictly speaking, heretical, even if it is irregular.

With COVID-19 communion in one kind became the norm in my diocese because of health considerations and restricting the opportunity for the virus to spread. It is not a doctrine, nor a discipline, but only a practise and in this case one based on medical advice.

 

[FireDragon76]

With COVID-19 communion in one kind became the norm in my diocese because of health considerations and restricting the opportunity for the virus to spread. It is not a doctrine, nor a discipline, but only a practise and in this case one based on medical advice.

The local Lutherans started using individual cups. Probably as much out of the scrupulosity of people receiving communion as any sound medical advice. The Congregationalist church I go to also does something similar, and its one of the reasons individual cups became widespread in mainline Protestantism (early in the 20th century, people were very much afraid of tuberculosis, and the habit remained long after the epidemic ended).

At any rate, Hus wasn't persecuted for being a Protestant (which he wasn't, of course), but because he threatened the purse strings of two powerful factions at war with each other. Accusing somebody of differing on a point of doctrine, or blaspheming the sacrament, was often a way that those in power sought to persecute critics, so we shouldn't take the theological aspects necessarily at face value.

 

[The Liturgist]

it's not strictly speaking, heretical, even if it is irregular.

The Orthodox object to it as an unacceptable innovation. And also by the way, imputing a cynical motive to the glorification of St. Jan Hus is unlikely, since unlike some churches, the Orthodox do have a process before adding people to the liturgical calendar, and adhere to it. Also note that to be canonized in Orthodox parlance is to be subjected to a canonical penalty.

 

[The Liturgist]

With COVID-19 communion in one kind became the norm in my diocese because of health considerations and restricting the opportunity for the virus to spread. It is not a doctrine, nor a discipline, but only a practise and in this case one based on medical advice.

ROCOR refused to do any of that and I admire them, since one cannot become ill from the Body and Blood. Of course if the real change doesn’t happen, that is another matter entirely.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

ROCOR refused to do any of that and I admire them, since one cannot become ill from the Body and Blood. Of course if the real change doesn’t happen, that is another matter entirely.

Do you believe that the change includes viruses on or in the bread and wine before the change takes place?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Do you believe that the change includes viruses on or in the bread and wine before the change takes place?

I have a thought experiment for you and the Liturgist and anyone else. I don't know the answer.

As you know, Catholic rubrics require pure wheat bread and pure grape wine. No walnut bread or peach blueberry wine. Just the pure stuff. No yeast even or added sugar for the bread or wine.

So at consecration do the walnuts in the bread or the blueberries in the wine become anything other than exactly what they were, walnuts and blueberries? Does a virus in the wine or a bacteria in the bread become anything other than what it was before consecration? I don't know. I'm proposing it as an interesting thought experiment. Maybe Thomas Aquinas already answered this. I donno.

 

[Paidiske]

Does a virus in the wine or a bacteria in the bread become anything other than what it was before consecration?

Personally, (speaking with both my immunological and my theological hats on, but not repeating, to the best of my knowledge, any official doctrine of my church), I would argue that if a virus were present in the chalice before consecration, it would remain present (as what it was before) afterwards. And if a virus were to enter the chalice after consecration (say, due to contact with a person's mouth), it would remain present.

However - and this is the key point - the likelihood of an infective dose of a virus not only being present, but being transmitted to another person receiving, is so low as to be negligible. For a respiratory virus, you are more likely to catch whatever it is, by being in the same space and breathing the same air as another infected person, than from receiving from a common cup. So if you're willing to go to church together you might as well share the chalice.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

As you know, Catholic rubrics require pure wheat bread and pure grape wine. No walnut bread or peach blueberry wine. Just the pure stuff. No yeast even or added sugar for the bread or wine.

So at consecration do the walnuts in the bread or the blueberries in the wine

You just said walnuts and blueberries are not to e used. Only pure wheat bread and pure grape wine would be changed.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The purpose of my earlier post is to affirm that people can catch COVID at mass; one need not be too concerned about the exact source for the infection or the exact moment it is contracted.

 

[Paidiske]

Of course one can catch Covid (or another virus) at mass. Any time you get a bunch of people together we can share viruses.

Personally, my main point is to say to people, if it's too risky for you to be exposed, don't do large gatherings of people. Get your priest to bring you the sacrament one on one (any of us worth our salt will happily do so). Because the risk isn't in the cup, it's in lots of poeple coming together.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You just said walnuts and blueberries are not to be used.

That's the rule, not always the practice. Would such corrupted elements even be valid matter for a valid sacrament? I donno. I thought I heard that such corrupted stuff would mean an invalid consecration. I suspect that would be covered in canon law. I'll have to check.

Only pure wheat bread and pure grape wine would be changed.

Would that mean the hypothetical walnuts and blueberries would still be there? Just unchanged? And that a load of virus would also remain unchanged? I kind of like what Paidiske wrote, but without definitively agreeing.

 

[Andrewn]

The Luddites were well before Easter, and continued till the reformation. John Brown of my town, Ashford, was burnt to death by the Catholics, in the same year as Matin Luther pinned his 95 Theses to his Church door. John Huss who was burnt to death 100 years before the reformation and wrote many letters to the Wycklifites he considered the Pope to be Antichrist. The Husssites or Bohemian Brethren, came from missionaries from the poor men of Lyon, dating from 13th century.

Before them were the Waldensians who claim their departure from Rome to the time of Sylvester, bishop of Rome at the time of Constantine, who instituted Catholicism.

These groups as historically referred to as Proto-Protestants.

They include the Waldensians [followers of Peter Waldo (1140-1205)], the Lollards [followers of John Wycliffe (1328-1384)], and the Hussites [followers of Jan Hus (1369-1415)].

The historical relationship of the 16th century Anabaptist movement to these groups is open to discussion.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh boy, another iteration of "the Roman Pope is the antichrist, and Constantine is responsible for everything bad." That never gets old.

No one gets more anti-Roman Pope cred than my Church (see: the council of Chalcedon), yet we don't indulge in this sort of nonsense. Go figure.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's the rule, not always the practice. Would such corrupted elements even be valid matter for a valid sacrament? I donno. I thought I heard that such corrupted stuff would mean an invalid consecration. I suspect that would be covered in canon law. I'll have to check.

Would that mean the hypothetical walnuts and blueberries would still be there? Just unchanged? And that a load of virus would also remain unchanged? I kind of like what Paidiske wrote, but without definitively agreeing.

My understanding is that such bread would be considered invalid matter and render the sacrament invalid according to RC sacramental theology.

 

[chevyontheriver]

My understanding is that such bread would be considered invalid matter and render the sacrament invalid according to RC sacramental theology.

My daughter borrowed my Canon Law book. But yes, I think that is right. The bread has to be plain bread and the wine plain wine.

Then it comes down to what happens with viruses and bacteria in the bread and wine. It's kind of inappropriate to do a real experiment on the consecrated elements. But I expect that in the era of the Black Death there was a rational basis for concluding that diseases could possibly be spread that way.

I am happy to report that my parish, which was ordered closed during the pandemic, has now allowed access to the Eucharistic cup again. The period of the Covid scare was painful for many practicing Christians as their leaders seemed more concerned with physical health over spiritual health.

 

[David Kent]

These groups as historically referred to as Proto-Protestants.

They include the Waldensians [followers of Peter Waldo (1140-1205)], the Lollards [followers of John Wycliffe (1328-1384)], and the Hussites [followers of Jan Hus (1369-1415)].

The historical relationship of the 16th century Anabaptist movement to these groups is open to discussion.

I would challenge that the Waldensians came from Peter Waldo. The Ronan Catholics said that to make the Waldensians ha new group at that time which was not true. Secondly Waldo had a bible translated and it was widely used in Metz, which is in Alsace and has a Germanic language, but the Waldensians had a Latin language similar to old French. I also think, but I am not sure, that the old Lyonaise Gauloise was a Germanic language.

Waldo founded the Poor Men Of Lyon,* group of street preachers who were widely persecuted and spread around Europe and even reached Bohemia and became the Bohemian Brethren from which Jan Hus came.

* also known as le Humiliati and also le Pauvre.

 

[The Liturgist]

I would challenge that the Waldensians came from Peter Waldo. The Ronan Catholics said that to make the Waldensians ha new group at that time which was not true. Secondly Waldo had a bible translated and it was widely used in Metz, which is in Alsace and has a Germanic language, but the Waldensians had a Latin language similar to old French. I also think, but I am not sure, that the old Lyonaise Gauloise was a Germanic language.

Waldo founded the Poor Men Of Lyon,* group of street preachers who were widely persecuted and spread around Europe and even reached Bohemia and became the Bohemian Brethren from which Jan Hus came.

* also known as le Humiliati and also le Pauvre.

Alas that is entirely inaccurate. There is no connection between Peter Waldo, whose existence by the way is doubted by many historians, and St. Jan Hus, who was influenced doctrinally by the Orthodox Church until it fell under the control of the House of Luxembourg. Furthermore I can find no record of a distinct Lyonaise language, and it would make no sense for a Germanic language to be spoken there given that the city was in antiquity Lugdunum, a major Roman governmental city and also the see of St. Irenaeus, the pioneering second century Christian theologian and martyr.

However, members of the Traditional Theology forum, the SOP of which it would be good of you to read @David Kent, will be interested to note there is an historic liturgical use specific to Lyons, which is particularly interesting in terms of liturgical colors, as it makes use of tan colored vestments on Ash Wednesday, not to be confused with the Lenten Array popular in the English church (which I have to confess I am not a fan of; for me the plain wool of the Lenten Array is simply ugly, and it fails to capture the spirit of the Great Lent as a joyous fast in the same manner as elegant violet or purple vestments such as one finds in the Roman and Byzantine Rites.

 

[David Kent]

Nearly every part of France had it's own regional dialect. At one time much of eastern France Switzerland and Italy used Romansch or Rumansch, or various other spellings of it. Now used only Switzerland, seems.

As to Peter Waldo. It is likely that the Catholics and Orthodox lied about him as they did with the Waldensians Bogomils, Paulikians, etc, saying that they worshipped two gods.

 

[Andrewn]

I would challenge that the Waldensians came from Peter Waldo. The Ronan Catholics said that to make the Waldensians ha new group at that time which was not true. Secondly Waldo had a bible translated and it was widely used in Metz, which is in Alsace and has a Germanic language, but the Waldensians had a Latin language similar to old French. I also think, but I am not sure, that the old Lyonaise Gauloise was a Germanic language.

Waldo founded the Poor Men Of Lyon,* group of street preachers who were widely persecuted and spread around Europe and even reached Bohemia and became the Bohemian Brethren from which Jan Hus came.

The following information from Wikipedia proposes an older origin of the Waldensians:

"Though arising to prominence in the 12th century, some evidence suggests the existence of the Waldenses even before the time of Peter Waldo as early as 1100.[36] Pope Alexander in 1167 at the Third Council of the Lateran lamented the Waldenses as a "pest of long existence".[37][38] While the Inquisitor Reinerius Saccho in the 12th century also spoke about the dangers of the Waldenses for among other reasons its antiquity "some say that it has lasted from the time of Sylvester, others, from the time of the Apostles."[39] In the 17th century, Waldensian Pastor Henri Arnaud stated that "the Vaudois are, in fact, descended from those refugees from Italy, who, after St Paul had there preached the gospel abandoned their beautiful country, like the woman mentioned in the apocalypse and fled to those wild mountains where they have to this day, handed down the gospel from father to son in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by St Paul.[40]

"The Waldensian movement was characterized from the beginning by lay preaching, voluntary poverty, and strict adherence to the Bible. Between 1175 and 1185, Waldo either commissioned a cleric from Lyon to translate the New Testament into the vernacular—the Arpitan(Franco-Provençal) language[41]—or was himself involved in this translation work.[citation needed]"

Waldensians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As to Peter Waldo. It is likely that the Catholics and Orthodox lied about him as they did with the Waldensians Bogomils, Paulikians, etc, saying that they worshipped two gods.

It is probably impossible to assess their relationship to older non-Catholic movements in the West.