Demographic future of US Christianity?

Albion

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From my position as an outsider, what I've seen is that it's the Fundamentalist Christian sect's that are most political.

I don't know what you've seen yourself, so I cannot comment on that. However, it's the Liberal denominations that have been the deepest into political pronouncements, not the Evangelicals, and this has been going on for decades.

Yes, I know that there is a popular impression in some quarters about Evangelicals beating the drum for President Trump, but much of that is a creation of the media. Not all of it to be sure but some of it.

Generally speaking, Evangelicals have been reluctant to get into politics, and we also see that here on these forums when an Evangelical posts something along the lines of "I don't care about either party. I am not interested worldly kingdoms because I am a child of the King of Kings," etc.

There has been a rallying of some Evangelicals for Trump because of his work to defend religious freedom, but this is not universal with Evangelicals and definitely is not typical of Evangelicals over the years.

But the Liberal denominations have been taking political stands and speaking out on partisan issues for some time, often claiming that it is the Christian's duty to publicly oppose injustice or whatever. Because the media like that, they of course does not get on their high horses to berate the pronouncements and activities of these Christians.

From the Liberal side what I've seen politically are social justice issues and human rights sort of things.
In other words, you are saying the same thing I have just said about those denominations except that you cloaked their political activity behind classier or less specific terms in order to make them seem to be non-political.

Is it across the board that Christianity is declining? Or are there certain areas being hit more so than others?

Absolutely, it's the latter. The decline in Europe started earlier, in both Catholic and Protestant nations, and now its affecting North America. But at the same time, Christianity is gaining in the Third World.

The question on this thread originally was about the USA, so if we confine our analysis to that one country, there probably is a softening, but it probably is too soon to talk in the gloomy terms that I was reading earlier.
 
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Albion

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I think it is coincidental not a cause.
It cannot be "coincidental," since it's a matter of statistics and outcomes. Either the whole is diluted somewhat by the fact of new ingredients being added or something else offsets it. And it isn't only religious preference that works that way.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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It cannot be "coincidental," since it's a matter of statistics and outcomes. Either the whole is diluted somewhat by the fact of new ingredients being added or something else offsets it. And it isn't only religious preference that works that way.

The growth is in unafilliated "Nones" at the expense of mainline Christianity. Nothing to do with "immigration of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and other non-Christian religions"..
 
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Albion

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The growth is in unafilliated "Nones" at the expense of mainline Christianity.
It is a growing group, to be sure, but the non-Christians of other religions more than make up, by themselves, for the decline in percentage of Christians which was cited at the start of this discussion.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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It is a growing group, to be sure, but the non-Christians of other religions more than make up, by themselves, for the decline in percentage of Christians which was cited at the start of this discussion.

Where are you seeing data on growth of non Christian religions?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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C'mon. There are all sorts of sources that show the numbers of residents who identify with each of these religions--and also "nones"--by year.
You mean you don't have one handy? I don't dispute it but it was not in the OP study, was it?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I did find this:
Non-Christian religious groups are growing, but they still represent less than one in ten Americans combined.
America's Changing Religious Identity

It certainly doesn't account for the decline in Christianity.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I don't feel that's accurate.
I would say fundamentalists are asserting that everyone must abide by their traditional religious beliefs, and/or that their traditional religious beliefs should excuse them from rules that fairly apply to everyone else, and/or they should not have to deal with any consequences for acting on those traditional religious beliefs. It is most definitely not just about being able to have those beliefs.

And I would say the liberal wing is asserting that you cannot outlaw changing social norms based purely on religious beliefs.

We disagree.
 
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cloudyday2

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I have many examples if you're interested in hearing them.
I'd be interested in hearing yours.
I am interested in hearing examples too.

Let's take the ancient issue of participating in public festivals venerating Roman gods. Was it political for a Christian to participate in a festival or was it political for a Christian to refuse to participate? I can certainly understand why the non-Christians were offended by Christians who enjoyed the benefits of Roman society yet refused to venerate Roman traditions. And of course I can understand why the Christians refused.
 
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awitch

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Abortion is an obvious example. What other examples are you thinking of as far as Evangelicals' influence?

That's one.
Religious monuments on government property, like courthouses was a big one. Christians claimed it was persecution not to let them put up their monuments because freedom of religion. Atheists didn't want any religious monuments up in such areas. The Supreme Court eventually ruled that the monuments could stay as long as anyone else who wanted one couldn't be denied. It was only when atheists and Satanists wanted to up monuments that Christians changed their mind about the topic. The same applied to prayer at PTA meetings or town council meetings.

I find it's largely Christians/conservatives who are anti-maskers.

Christians wanted to remove evolution from public school curriculum and teach Creationism in science class.

We have religious businesses like Hobby Lobby who said that they are a Christian business and they don't want to cover contraceptives on the health care plan and they got excused.

We still have Blue Laws in Bergen County, NJ where businesses must be closed on Sundays.

We have bakers, wedding planners, and photography businesses that want to be excused from discrimination laws so they don't have to provide service to LGBTQ couples even though they are a public business.

And at the same time, no one is forcing churches to conduct same sex marriages. No one is forcing churches or private religious schools or hospitals to fire LGBTQ employees.

The nones and non-Christians want neutrality and when Christians have been privileged for so long, of course that sounds like persecution to them. It's not.
 
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Andrewn

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You provided good examples.

Religious monuments on government property, like courthouses was a big one. Christians claimed it was persecution not to let them put up their monuments because freedom of religion. Atheists didn't want any religious monuments up in such areas. The Supreme Court eventually ruled that the monuments could stay as long as anyone else who wanted one couldn't be denied. It was only when atheists and Satanists wanted to up monuments that Christians changed their mind about the topic.
One interesting example took place in front of the Bradford County Courthouse in Starke, Fla, where Christians erected a monument of the Ten Commandments and the nones erected an atheistic monument. This is not a bad solution but the it was not really necessary. The Ten Commandments are a historical document, not only a religious document, and should have been accepted by all.

The same applied to prayer at PTA meetings or town council meetings.
The article quoted in the OP shows that Christians represent 65% of the population in the US. Being the majority, their beliefs and traditions should be respected so long they themselves show respects to minorities. It is quite easy for nones and Muslims to join the meetings after prayers if they so choose.

I find it's largely Christians/conservatives who are anti-maskers.
These people are just anti-science Trumpers. But there are also people in the BLM movement who do not were masks. Not wearing masks is a sign of stubbornness. This has nothing to do with Christianity.

Christians wanted to remove evolution from public school curriculum and teach Creationism in science class.
No, they did not want to remove evolution. Having half a page describing Creationism in a book about evolution should be quite reasonable, except that atheists can be quite stubborn.

We have religious businesses like Hobby Lobby who said that they are a Christian business and they don't want to cover contraceptives on the health care plan and they got excused.
This is a private business. You don't like it, don't buy contraceptives there.

We still have Blue Laws in Bergen County, NJ where businesses must be closed on Sundays.
I'm sure essential services are allowed to be open. How many counties are there in the USA? This is a social issue, Sunday should be "Family Day." You can do your shopping 6 days-a-week. You would have no objection if they closed on Wednesdays.

We have bakers, wedding planners, and photography businesses that want to be excused from discrimination laws so they don't have to provide service to LGBTQ couples even though they are a public business.
These are private businesses and they choose to lose business this way. Don't order your wedding cake, there.

And at the same time, no one is forcing churches to conduct same sex marriages.
You really want to force Hobby Lobby, bakers, and even churches to do what you want!!! They're not forcing you to do anything. The LGBTQ and the Islamists even removed "under God" from the pledge of allegiance to the country.

No one is forcing churches or private religious schools or hospitals to fire LGBTQ employees.
You shouldn't object to this.

The nones and non-Christians want neutrality and when Christians have been privileged for so long, of course that sounds like persecution to them. It's not.
It doesn't look from what you say that the nones want neutrality. You're talking about social issues where you to force your opinion on the majority. Being a majority comes with privileges. This is a democracy. But the majority should in return respect rights of minorities.

You live in a society where at least two-thirds are Christians and the Christians have done a lot of good for this society.
 
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awitch

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You provided good examples.

One interesting example took place in front of the Bradford County Courthouse in Starke, Fla, where Christians erected a monument of the Ten Commandments and the nones erected an atheistic monument. This is not a bad solution but the it was not really necessary. The Ten Commandments are a historical document, not only a religious document, and should have been accepted by all.

Absolutely not. It's either open to everyone or none at all. That's neutrality.
Most of the 10 Commandments are not enforceable by law today and it would clearly by an endorsement for the government to display a single monument that declares which god I can and cannot honor.

Remember, those Christians said it was persecution not to let them put up a monument, and as soon as someone else wanted to put one up, they didn't want any monuments anymore. Clearly, they were acting in bad faith.


The article quoted in the OP shows that Christians represent 65% of the population in the US. Being the majority, their beliefs and traditions should be respected so long they themselves show respects to minorities. It is quite easy for nones and Muslims to join the meetings after prayers if they so choose.

No, that's not okay when the meeting is in progress on the tax-payers dime. Either pray quietly in your closet as you were instructed before the meeting or have a moment of silence where everyone can waste their time equally. Again, Christians said is was persecution not to let hem say a prayer and then complained when they had to allow a non-Christian equal time.

These people are just anti-science Trumpers. But there are also people in the BLM movement who do not were masks. Not wearing masks is a sign of stubbornness. This has nothing to do with Christianity.

Tell that to the Republican State representative from Ohio, Nino Vitale. He refused to wear a mask because it would "violate his Judeo-Christian Principles...One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen the most by our face. I will not wear a mask.".

How about all the mega churches that sued to state so they could have services in person, not caring there's super contagious and potentially fatal virus spreading all over the world? Some decided to have services despite state mandates because they felt the law shouldn't apply to them. Pastors and congregants died and spread covid in their communities.


No, they did not want to remove evolution. Having half a page describing Creationism in a book about evolution should be quite reasonable, except that atheists can be quite stubborn.

There is nothing scientific about Creationism OR Intelligent Design, as admitted by their biggest proponent at the time. Now, if you want to teach it in your private religious schools, that's fine. But not in a public school. It has nothing to do with stubbornness or atheists.

You remember Christians sued to put disclaimers about evolution being a theory in text books, still not comprehending the difference between a scientific theory and a hunch. But it was ONLY evolution that they wanted it for.


This is a private business. You don't like it, don't buy contraceptives there.

Hobby Lobby is a craft store. They provided health insurance to their employees, but the insurance packages offered coverage for contraceptives which Hobby Lobby didn't want to pay for.

I'm sure essential services are allowed to be open. How many counties are there in the USA? This is a social issue, Sunday should be "Family Day." You can do your shopping 6 days-a-week. You would have no objection if they closed on Wednesdays.

Why Sunday? Because it's the Christian Sabbath.The government shouldn't tell me what day I can and can't work and what I should do with my time off. Some people say it's about competition, but that doesn't seem to be an issue anywhere else there are blue laws. Let the business decide what day they want to be closed.

These are private businesses and they choose to lose business this way. Don't order your wedding cake, there.

Think it's fine for them to discriminate in a public business?
How about this...they don't want to serve gays because it's a sin.
Everyone sins.
They shouldn't serve anyone.
Therefore, close all Christian businesses.

How about if you're a Christian female and take the day off to stand in line at the DMV for a few hours to renew your license and the fundamentalist Muslim behind the counter says it's his sincere religious belief that women shouldn't drive and refuses your service. Would you cry discrimination or would you nod and say, "I understand have a nice day" and then drive to another town to wait in line a few more hours. Remember, government officials were also refusing to do their work on religious grounds, for example, refusing to issue marriage licenses after same sex marriage was legalized.

Let it be noted Christians want to discriminate. My point stands then.

You really want to force Hobby Lobby, bakers, and even churches to do what you want!!! They're not forcing you to do anything. Leave them alone.

I want them to follow the laws that everyone else has to follow.


You shouldn't object to this.

I don't object at all. The separation of church and state swings both ways.

You live in a society where at least two-thirds are Christians and the Christians have done a lot of good for this society.

But it's not a theocracy. Are you really suggesting "we did good" is a good justification?
 
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grasping the after wind

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That's one.
Religious monuments on government property, like courthouses was a big one. Christians claimed it was persecution not to let them put up their monuments because freedom of religion. Atheists didn't want any religious monuments up in such areas. The Supreme Court eventually ruled that the monuments could stay as long as anyone else who wanted one couldn't be denied. It was only when atheists and Satanists wanted to up monuments that Christians changed their mind about the topic. The same applied to prayer at PTA meetings or town council meetings.

I find it's largely Christians/conservatives who are anti-maskers.

Christians wanted to remove evolution from public school curriculum and teach Creationism in science class.

We have religious businesses like Hobby Lobby who said that they are a Christian business and they don't want to cover contraceptives on the health care plan and they got excused.

We still have Blue Laws in Bergen County, NJ where businesses must be closed on Sundays.

We have bakers, wedding planners, and photography businesses that want to be excused from discrimination laws so they don't have to provide service to LGBTQ couples even though they are a public business.

And at the same time, no one is forcing churches to conduct same sex marriages. No one is forcing churches or private religious schools or hospitals to fire LGBTQ employees.

The nones and non-Christians want neutrality and when Christians have been privileged for so long, of course that sounds like persecution to them. It's not.

What are these examples supposed to be evidence of? I posted about the distinction between Christian denominations and the way some denominations on both what we call the right and the left were politically active by trying to insert their preferred Christian beliefs into politics as well as trying to insert their preferred political beliefs into the Christian religion. Your examples don't contradict what I said, they reinforce it, but seem to be concentrated only upon one half of those I mentioned. Were you looking for me to provide the examples on the left? Cannot you come up with them yourself? If not, perhaps you should consider looking for them as often as you look for those others? They are quite obvious and not in any way being hidden. How many threads have there been on CF in which left leaning Christians insist that Jesus was a socialist and that it is Christian duty to get government to force people of all religious or non religious backgrounds to comply with that religious belief? Social justice, tolerance, caring for the poor, all Christian beliefs. Those pushy Christians again getting government to enforce Christian morality upon society.

Do many Christians try to get their religious beliefs codified into secular law? Yep. Do many Muslims do this too? Yep. Is there any group that does not try to get their beliefs, whether based upon a religion or based upon some other criterion, codified into law? NOPE.

I don't know as all of your examples are well sourced . Your claim that it is mostly Christian conservatives that are anti maskers for instance. First what is an anti masker? Is it someone who thinks that the government has no authority to force people to wear masks or is it someone that refuses to wear a mask under any circumstance or is it someone that advocates that no one wear a mask ever or would you have a different definition? Additionally, AFAIK there is no Christian denomination that has a religious tenet that has anything to do with wearing a mask . That being the case, I cannot see how any anti maskers are in any way trying to enforce their religious beliefs upon others. Like almost everyone in society they are advocating for political beliefs and in this case it is totally unrelated to religion. It seems to me that some of your examples are of Christians , with political positions you disagree with, expressing their political opinions not their religious beliefs. It also seems to me that sometimes people want to dismiss a political belief they disagree with by labelling it a religious belief hoping that the label itself somehow disqualifies the belief from being taken at face value. It seems to me that one needs to have a better argument against a political position than the idea that the political belief also aligns with some religious belief.
 
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Zoness

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My personal experience in small town America is this: secularism is unofficially frowned upon. Some places might pay lip service to it all the time but Christianity, especially Protestantism, has primacy. My wife taught at a school district that let a church perform a service at the school. Pretty sure that's not legal but what are you going to do, complain? Those folks will bash your face in.

However you'd never see a Jewish or a Muslim service there. For one, those folks basically don't exist in small town America. (Well exception, I know one Jewish family in their entire rural county). But also because there would be a total reaction against it perceived as "catering to those whiny minorities". And forget doing any secular, inclusive event at all.

The calculus changes rapidly once you get into any major town at least on egregious offenses. It would be a scandal if a church service was held in a school in the university town where I lived as there's a ton of diversity. However, you can still get away with a lot....sending kids ads for programs that looks secular but are religious. Having religious speakers, etc. So even in these diverse areas, Christianity still rules the roost.

Christians represent the overwhelming majority of government too:

image0-35.png


Christians have nothing at all to be concerned about. They will be the leading force in America for a long time.
 
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