Cholesterol and fraud - Anthony Chaffee, MD

[FireDragon76]

It's damage to the arteries is the cause and cholesterol is the reaction of the inflammatory response. Then fats exasperate the problem through buildup onto the cholesterol.

What causes atherosclerosis?
Plaque buildup in the arteries starts with damage to the arteries. Risk factors such as unhealthy lifestyle habits, medical conditions, or your genes, can lead to this damage.

Causes and Risk Factors

www.nhlbi.nih.gov

Yes, that's general advice based on where the current science was a few decades ago. However, I have listened to talks by leading lipidologists that atherosclerosis is not purely driven by inflammation, but can also be caused just by consuming a diet that is high in saturated fat. Saturated fat gets converted by the liver into cholesterol automatically, the body does a poor job regulating it, and in some individuals (such as APOE4 genotypes) it does an even poorer job of eliminating cholesterol. That's why it's good to keep cholesterol levels low, especially APO(B).

Note from the article:

Unhealthy diet: Eating a lot of foods high in saturated fats can increase your cholesterol levels.

People with LDL cholesterol below 75 (or total choresterol below 150) don't get atherosclerosis. We know this studying populations with very low cholesterol (such as some hunter-gatherers, or people consuming pre-industrial diets). With the exception of uncommon genetic conditions, such as APOE4 genotypes, high cholesterol is almost always caused by high intake of dietary saturated fat.

 

[Laodicean60]

Fire is right about saturated fats in that they do cause issues. Now if you are in ketosis and primarily using fat as a fuel I don't think the fat is a issue. But for me on a balanced diet even though I'm on a lower carb diet (no refined sugars and processed food I still have to limit my diet of beef & pork) like timeworx said with exercise it helps me lower my glycogen stores so I can burn fats and sometime IF couple times a week.

I just remembered on a video the highly processed seed oil has been found to damage artery walls.

 

[Laodicean60]

Yes, that's general advice based on where the current science was a few decades ago. However, I have listened to talks by leading lipidologists that atherosclerosis is not purely driven by inflammation, but can also be caused just by consuming a diet that is high in saturated fat. Saturated fat gets converted by the liver into cholesterol automatically, the body does a poor job regulating it, and in some individuals (such as APOE4 genotypes) it does an even poorer job of eliminating cholesterol. That's why it's good to keep cholesterol levels low, especially APO(B).

Note from the article:



People with LDL cholesterol below 75 (or total choresterol below 150) don't get atherosclerosis. We know this studying populations with very low cholesterol (such as some hunter-gatherers, or people consuming pre-industrial diets). With the exception of uncommon genetic conditions, such as APOE4 genotypes, high cholesterol is almost always caused by high intake of dietary saturated fat.

Please look at the date of this article. Am i missing something?

Global web icon
NHLBI, NIH

Causes and Risk Factors

www.nhlbi.nih.gov

Atherosclerosis - Causes and Risk Factors | NHLBI, NIH
WebMar 24, 2022 · Research for your health. The NHLBI leads and supports research to better understand what raises the risk of atherosclerosis and also how it is linked to other …

 

[trophy33]

Saturated fat gets converted by the liver into cholesterol automatically, the body does a poor job regulating it

Its a bit weird to think that our body, designed by millions of years of evolution, does a poor job in such simple thing like processing the most common fat found in our natural diet.

That's why it's good to keep cholesterol levels low, especially APO(B).

Cholesterol is regulated by genes, based on a specific situation. More dietary fat => more fat carriers to cells and from cells. Its not a poor design. We do not need to keep it low or high, body does that.

People with LDL cholesterol below 75 (or total choresterol below 150) don't get atherosclerosis.

Even when smoking? Drinking alcohol? Eating sugar? Being diabetics? Source?

We know this studying populations with very low cholesterol (such as some hunter-gatherers, or people consuming pre-industrial diets). With the exception of uncommon genetic conditions, such as APOE4 genotypes, high cholesterol is almost always caused by high intake of dietary saturated fat.

Hunter-gatherers eat animals (because they are hunters) and animal meat contains a lot of saturated fats. So, I do not understand this point, much.

 

[FireDragon76]

Fire is right about saturated fats in that they do cause issues. Now if you are in ketosis and primarily using fat as a fuel I don't think the fat is a issue. But for me on a balanced diet even though I'm on a lower carb diet (no refined sugars and processed food I still have to limit my diet of beef & pork) like timeworx said with exercise it helps me lower my glycogen stores so I can burn fats and sometime IF couple times a week.

Exercise can help (particularly triglyceride levels) but the effects of exercise are limited compared to the type of diet a person consumes.

I just remembered on a video the highly processed seed oil has been found to damage artery walls.

There isn't any good epidemiological evidence to suggest that seed oils contribute to heart disease. If anything, replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat tends to reduce cholesterol levels in intervention trials that have been done.

I don't eat a diet with alot of oils at all, but I do that because I follow a high carb diet. I do eat some nuts and seeds (like chia seeds) however, in very small amounts, and a very small amount of olive oil, and little processed foods (where most oils are found in modern western diets).

 

[FireDragon76]

Its a bit weird to think that our body, designed by millions of years of evolution, does a poor job in such simple thing like processing the most common fat found in our natural diet.

Why not? The body does a poor job regulating weight on its own in an environment with an abundance of high calorie foods. Why would blood lipids be exempt from this reality? Heart disease only affects people once they are beyond their reproductive years, and wouldn't place alot of pressure on a population.

In addition, during most of human prehistory, we were likely consuming diets that were relatively low in fat and low in calories. The genetic pressure would have been on absorbing fat calories from our food, not eliminating fat from the body.

Cholesterol is regulated by genes, based on a specific situation. More dietary fat => more fat carriers to cells and from cells. Its not a poor design. We do not need to keep it low or high, body does that.

The fat is only taken out of the blood if there is a receptor for it. If the cells aren't placing any metabolic demands for fat, and the liver's ability to remove fat is overwhelmed (due to a high fat diet), the cholesterol and triglycerides will keep circulating, until the lipoprotein transporter gets stuck somewhere it shouldn't be.

Hunter-gatherers eat animals (because they are hunters) and animal meat contains a lot of saturated fats.

Most of the calories of most hunter-gatherer and pre-agriculture groups actually come from plant foods. The Hadza of Tanzania, for instance, get most of their calories from tubers. So did the Trobriand Islanders of Papua New Guinea, a group that lived using stone-age technology and engaged in hunting and horticulture. They hunted for wild pigs, but most of their calories (over 90 percent) came from sweet potatoes.

Wild game doesn't necessarily contain alot of fat. Hunter-gatherers are not eating modern cows or pigs. Small animals that make up the bulk of animals that hunter gatherers consume are relatively lean and have very little fat on their bodies. Also, most hunter gatherers only eat meat a few times a week in small amounts.

 

[Laodicean60]

There isn't any good epidemiological evidence to suggest that seed oils contribute to heart disease

you are probably right, this was a couple years ago when on keto.

 

[trophy33]

Why not? The body does a poor job regulating weight on its own in an environment with an abundance of high calorie foods.

The weight gain on sugars/carbohydrates (calories are not relevant) is actually a good thing in our natural environment, because both animals and humans needed to gain some fat for winters.

Our modern era in which we have access to sugars/carbohydrates all the day every day is not out natural environment and therefore its making us sick - so fat that people cannot even walk or breath properly.

However not being able to properly deal with the dietary fats or proteins found naturally in meat makes no sense.

Heart disease only affects people once they are beyond their reproductive years, and wouldn't place alot of pressure on a population.

There is basically no heart disease, obesity or diabetes in nature. Neither in humans nor in animals. Not even after the reproductive years (btw, men can reproduce to a very high age). Not ever. These are problems that have begun to appear in the westernized countries in the 20th century.

Body is designed well, but not for industrial products labeled as "food".

In addition, during most of human prehistory, we were likely consuming diets that were relatively low in fat and low in calories.

The opposite. Diets high in protein, with fats and dense in calories. Thats what made our brains bigger.

The fat is only taken out of the blood if there is a receptor for it. If the cells aren't placing any metabolic demands for fat, and the liver's ability to remove fat is overwhelmed (due to a high fat diet), the cholesterol and triglycerides will keep circulating, until the lipoprotein transporter gets stuck somewhere it shouldn't be.

You can store fat, it does not need to circulate forever. People on diets low in carbohydrates are slim, me included. Its actually difficult to gain more weight other than in muscle mass. After few days of fast I am actually too slim. Because protein with fat is so satiating that you basically cannot being overwhelmed with that. You do not feel well when trying to continue eating protein and fat after your body has enough. Its not like eating cookies or a melon.

Look also at Hadza hunters, how slim they are. If compared to an average carbs eating American you would say they are anorectic. The same applies to their dogs and generally to carnivores. A fat carnivore cannot hunt.

Most of the calories of most hunter-gatherer and pre-agriculture groups actually come from plant foods. The Hadza of Tanzania, for instance, get most of their calories from tubers.

What primary source (like for example a documentary) did you use for these claims? There seems to be a lot of ideological propaganda on the internet about them.

Wild game doesn't necessarily contain alot of fat. Hunter-gatherers are not eating modern cows or pigs. Small animals that make up the bulk of animals that hunter gatherers consume are relatively lean and have very little fat on their bodies.

Wild animals are certainly not as fat as modern pigs fed by corn, soy and other fattening substances. Those pigs cannot even move and have the same metabolic diseases as modern humans. Similarly with industrial chicken in cages that are so heavy that their legs regularly break. Indeed, its not natural.

Modern cows, if fed naturally on pastures, are not fattier than ruminant animals in nature. It also depends on the type of cow.

Also, most hunter gatherers only eat meat a few times a week in small amounts.

Not sure how you can prove this statement.

 

[trophy33]

the cholesterol and triglycerides will keep circulating, until the lipoprotein transporter gets stuck somewhere it shouldn't be.

Fat/cholesterol carriers may (or may not) contribute to some harm if you have already injured arterial walls, inflammation or some genetic problem, but I do not know of any proof they are harmful if you are otherwise healthy.

On the other hand, sugars are toxic in any amount higher than is body's natural production. They bind to proteins, they damage mitochondria. They take away your energy (brain fog, sleepiness during a day...). Thats why sugars are not allowed to stay in blood, body has to quickly "burn" them or store them as fat. And we do not need any underlying health condition for that.

 

[timewerx]

How many days per week?

Everyday. 14 to 16 hrs no food, no water from dinner to the first meal the next day.

Also two meals a day feeding routine. No eating/snacking in between, just zero calories in between meals, not even coffee.

I also burn an additional 500 to 700 Calories Exercising in the 14 to 16 hr fasting window. Each weekend, it can be in excess of 3,000 Calories burned in one long cycling and running session during the fasting window.

Adding exercise magnifies the effect and simulates the many beneficial effects of multi-day fasting in just 14 to 16 hrs of fasting plus the benefits you get from exercising.

 

[timewerx]

Look also at Hadza hunters, how slim they are. If compared to an average carbs eating American you would say they are anorectic. The same applies to their dogs and generally to carnivores. A fat carnivore cannot hunt.

Could also be the exercise you get from hunting.

Anyway, I actually have better body composition than these hunters (some of them have "pot bellies").

My physique is closer to that of an ancient Greek Hoplite (warrior) with wider chest, relatively small waist, flat abs, and prominent butt even though my BMI is that of a marathon runner.

Although I'm on a high carb, high fat diet, my daily calories would be significantly less than average American daily consumption.

 

[trophy33]

Anyway, I actually have better body composition than these hunters (some of them have "pot bellies").

They are maybe those who eat a lot of honey Some Hadza hunters go for it.

Members of the Maasai tribe, who are basically carnivores (plus drink milk), seem to be taller and more consistently lean.

 

[FireDragon76]

The weight gain on sugars/carbohydrates (calories are not relevant) is actually a good thing in our natural environment, because both animals and humans needed to gain some fat for winters.

Our modern era in which we have access to sugars/carbohydrates all the day every day is not out natural environment and therefore its making us sick - so fat that people cannot even walk or breath properly.

However not being able to properly deal with the dietary fats or proteins found naturally in meat makes no sense.


There is basically no heart disease, obesity or diabetes in nature. Neither in humans nor in animals. Not even after the reproductive years (btw, men can reproduce to a very high age). Not ever. These are problems that have begun to appear in the westernized countries in the 20th century.

Body is designed well, but not for industrial products labeled as "food".


The opposite. Diets high in protein, with fats and dense in calories. Thats what made our brains bigger.


You can store fat, it does not need to circulate forever. People on diets low in carbohydrates are slim, me included. Its actually difficult to gain more weight other than in muscle mass. After few days of fast I am actually too slim. Because protein with fat is so satiating that you basically cannot being overwhelmed with that. You do not feel well when trying to continue eating protein and fat after your body has enough. Its not like eating cookies or a melon.

Look also at Hadza hunters, how slim they are. If compared to an average carbs eating American you would say they are anorectic. The same applies to their dogs and generally to carnivores. A fat carnivore cannot hunt.

What primary source (like for example a documentary) did you use for these claims? There seems to be a lot of ideological propaganda on the internet about them.


Wild animals are certainly not as fat as modern pigs fed by corn, soy and other fattening substances. Those pigs cannot even move and have the same metabolic diseases as modern humans. Similarly with industrial chicken in cages that are so heavy that their legs regularly break. Indeed, its not natural.

Modern cows, if fed naturally on pastures, are not fattier than ruminant animals in nature. It also depends on the type of cow.

Not sure how you can prove this statement.

The Hadza actually get most of their calories from tubers and roots. The men practice hunting, but the women also spend alot of time digging up tubers, and this activity contributes to most of their calories. It also provides a more regular food supply than hunting.

The Masai are pastoralists and herders, and their lifestyle is relatively recent. They don't represent paleolithic peoples very well, since herding animals for dairy milk doesn't go back that far into prehistory.

 

[timewerx]

They are maybe those who eat a lot of honey Some Hadza hunters go for it.

Members of the Maasai tribe, who are basically carnivores (plus drink milk), seem to be taller and more consistently lean.

These are Kenyans. The worlds best marathon runners are Kenyans because they run/walk many miles everyday to get around. They also run in those sandals. They've been running long distances since childhood. If Americans drive cars to go to work, to go to school, to buy groceries, these people run or walk instead.

These people do get tons of exercise even if they don't hunt and of course would likely be eating healthier than Americans. Not one McDonalds and supermarket in sight.

My body composition is definitely closer to the Maasai tribe but with more bulk (muscles). My body fat % is less than 10%, well within the athletic range for males.

 

[trophy33]

The Hadza actually get most of their calories from tubers and roots. The men practice hunting, but the women also spend alot of time digging up tubers, and this activity contributes to most of their calories. It also provides a more regular food supply than hunting.

What documentaries about Hadza do you use for these claims? I was unable to find a video or a picture of a Hadza man eating a tuber. Only eating meat or honey.

And its hard to imagine that somebody in nature who moves a lot would prefer a tuber instead of protein and fat. Though, tubers are better than to be hungry or die, for sure. However they neither taste good, nor are addictive like honey nor provide essential nutrients like meat.

The Masai are pastoralists and herders, and their lifestyle is relatively recent. They don't represent paleolithic peoples very well, since herding animals for dairy milk doesn't go back that far into prehistory.

Herding is probably not the paleolithic way of getting meat, but its still the paleolithic way of eating.

Milk is nutritionally ideal for mammals, its directly designed to provide a complete nutrition for babies and to contain no defensive toxins (logically). So it may be a smart addition to our diet, if one can tolerate it in adulthood (many people or ethnicities cannot because they loose the ability to digest the milk sugar lactose). Fermented milk products like hard cheeses (cheddar) that have low or basically none sugar are more digestible for more people.

In other words, both meat and milk are paleolithic. Maasai (and many other people on Earth) just developed a more smarter way how to get it constantly (like milk) or with less work and risk (herding instead of hunting), in time.

Nobody in Africa represents paleolithic people well, because they do not live on ice and snow or in cold tundras, during ice ages. Maybe the Inuits who still live traditionally, can be seen as the most paleolithic people today, in this regard.

 

[FireDragon76]

What documentaries about Hadza do you use for these claims? I was unable to find a video or a picture of a Hadza man eating a tuber. Only eating meat or honey.

Our ancestors ate a Paleo diet. It had carbs

Modern hunter-gatherers offer insight into how our distant ancestors ate.

arstechnica.com

And its hard to imagine that somebody in nature who moves a lot would prefer a tuber instead of protein and fat.

They don't prefer tubers necessarily, but tubers are easily available so that's mostly what they eat.

Herding is probably not the paleolithic way of getting meat, but its still the paleolithic way of eating.

There were no people 20,000 years ago regularly consuming nonhuman animal milk.

 

[timewerx]

Our ancestors ate a Paleo diet. It had carbs

Modern hunter-gatherers offer insight into how our distant ancestors ate.

arstechnica.com

Nice read. It all boils down to the adaptability of the human body.

Snooping around some journals, I found that human metabolism is similar to that of birds that is why I often mention about birds. Many species of birds are omnivores. Many of the long-distance migratory species who are mostly carnivorous would sometimes eat fruits if prey is scarce.

Some of these birds like the Arctic Tern live up to 30 years in the wild. A very long lifespan for a small animal. Some of the bigger species of birds live as long as humans.

Some real spider species have even turned vegetarians on their own.

My point is both humans and animals can be be extremely adaptable in diet. It's really pointless to argue if we should doing meat or veggies. I think the only argument that would matter is ecological sustainability. Which diet leaves the smallest impact to the environment.

 

[trophy33]

Our ancestors ate a Paleo diet. It had carbs

Modern hunter-gatherers offer insight into how our distant ancestors ate.

arstechnica.com

Its funny that the only photo in the article is a Hadza hunter. Anyway, there are no modern "paleolithic societies" today, because the paleolithic environment (ice age) has changed.

There were no people 20,000 years ago regularly consuming nonhuman animal milk.

The "nonhuman" milk is not so different from human milk. Is still a mammalian milk designed to be a complete mammalian food. I think its impossible to prove or to disprove whether some people consumed it or not.

 

[trophy33]

I found that human metabolism is similar to that of birds that is why I often mention about birds. Many species of birds are omnivores. Many of the long-distance migratory species who are mostly carnivorous would sometimes eat fruits if prey is scarce.

Some of these birds like the Arctic Tern live up to 30 years in the wild. A very long lifespan for a small animal. Some of the bigger species of birds live as long as humans.

Some real spider species have even turned vegetarians on their own.

We are not birds Birds are from dinosaurs, we are mammals.

My point is both humans and animals can be be extremely adaptable in diet. It's really pointless to argue if we should doing meat or veggies. I think the only argument that would matter is ecological sustainability. Which diet leaves the smallest impact to the environment.

Eating a diet both high in carbs and high in fats leads to metabolic problems (The Randle cycle).

 

[FireDragon76]

The "nonhuman" milk is not so different from human milk. Is still a mammalian milk designed to be a complete mammalian food. I think its impossible to prove or to disprove whether some people consumed it or not.

We know that the genes that allow the consumption of large quantities of milk are relatively recent, and only appear in a minority of the global population, so from there we can extrapolate to the past, and see that they very likely didn't drink milk tens of thousands of years ago.