Can Calvinism be proven?

Al Touthentop

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To a Calvinist his faith is proof God saved him. He could not believe otherwise.

Most of the times that the word faith is used in the new testament it isn't talking about personal belief but 'the faith' which is the gospel.

John says there is a way to know you're in the faith. Know it.

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

There's the proof. A Calvinist would say that he's caused to obey.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Lev 4:2 - Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

It's the only type of sin the sacrifices of the old testament atoned for.

That is not true. That was the day of atonement sacrifice which was offered yearly. There were other sacrifices and they resulted in the remission of sin.
 
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Deus Vult!

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That is not true. That was the day of atonement sacrifice which was offered yearly. There were other sacrifices and they resulted in the remission of sin.

False.
Hebrews 10:4
4 "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."
 
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Al Touthentop

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False.
Hebrews 10:4
4 "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."


You haven't read the old testament and you miss the context of that passage. After Jesus was nailed to the cross, so was the old law under which those sacrifices were once effective. He's already noted in previous chapters that Christ's sacrifice has brought a new covenant and thus those sacrifices have been rendered ineffective. So going back to them would be of no use. However, the old testament is clear that sins were indeed forgiven. Saying they weren't is to call God a liar.

Leviticus 4:26
"So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him."

"So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him."
 
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Dave L

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Most of the times that the word faith is used in the new testament it isn't talking about personal belief but 'the faith' which is the gospel.

John says there is a way to know you're in the faith. Know it.

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

There's the proof. A Calvinist would say that he's caused to obey.
No, faith is the substance and evidence of salvation. Hebrews 11:1.
 
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Al Touthentop

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No, faith is the substance and evidence of salvation. Hebrews 11:1.

The word salvation cannot be found in that verse. It also does not negate other verses elsewhere even if the word salvation were in that verse.
 
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Dave L

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The word salvation cannot be found in that verse. It also does not negate other verses elsewhere even if the word salvation were in that verse.
It tells what faith is. As a fruit of the Holy Spirit you believe because you experience Christ in your heart. Just as you believe in anything you experience is real.
 
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Deus Vult!

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You haven't read the old testament and you miss the context of that passage. After Jesus was nailed to the cross, so was the old law under which those sacrifices were once effective. He's already noted in previous chapters that Christ's sacrifice has brought a new covenant and thus those sacrifices have been rendered ineffective. So going back to them would be of no use. However, the old testament is clear that sins were indeed forgiven. Saying they weren't is to call God a liar.

Leviticus 4:26
"So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him."

"So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him."


"You haven't read the old testament and you miss the context of that passage."- I have read the Old Testament and have not misunderstood the context. It was because "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." that our Lord gave Himself as a perfect, pure, unblemished Lamb as the sacrifice for sin. It is because God had to offer Himself to Himself for our sin.
The Old Testament sacrificial offerings were instituted only to help the Jews at the time of Jesus' sacrifice to recognize what was taking place on Calvary, and what was being accomplished there.
 
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Al Touthentop

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It tells what faith is. As a fruit of the Holy Spirit you believe because you experience Christ in your heart. Just as you believe in anything you experience is real.

"The faith" is the gospel. And as Paul wrote to the Romans, his entire purpose was "to bring about the obedience of (the) faith."

And what Paul was writing about in chapter eleven of Hebrews was obedience, not just esoteric experiences in people's hearts (that means the mind, not the blood pumping organ). The gospel is not a feeling, it is a law. And John writes that the proof of your own faith is obedience. Paul's writings do not negate John's writings, they confirm them.
 
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Al Touthentop

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"You haven't read the old testament and you miss the context of that passage."- I have read the Old Testament and have not misunderstood the context. It was because "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." that our Lord gave Himself as a perfect, pure, unblemished Lamb as the sacrifice for sin. It is because God had to offer Himself to Himself for our sin.
The Old Testament sacrificial offerings were instituted only to help the Jews at the time of Jesus' sacrifice to recognize what was taking place on Calvary, and what was being accomplished there.

You can ignore the context of Paul's letter and you can dismiss the old testament's plain words telling the Israelites that sacrifices resulted in the remission of sins. That does not mean a thing except that you do not accept God's words.
 
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Dave L

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"The faith" is the gospel. And as Paul wrote to the Romans, his entire purpose was "to bring about the obedience of (the) faith."

And what Paul was writing about in chapter eleven of Hebrews was obedience, not just esoteric experiences in people's hearts (that means the mind, not the blood pumping organ). The gospel is not a feeling, it is a law. And John writes that the proof of your own faith is obedience. Paul's writings do not negate John's writings, they confirm them.
You must experience salvation before you can believe.
 
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Al Touthentop

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According to you. If you don't know about it, it doesn't exist?

If you knew about it you could post a scripture that says experience trumps obedience or that one feels saved before he obeys. John wrote that it is knowledge that trumps emotions and feelings as did every other New Testament author. I can only imagine what Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost would be like if this unfounded assertion of yours were even remotely true.

"Men, bretheren, what shall we do?"

"Then Peter said to them, when you get the feeling that you are saved, just go on about your lives however you are led by your feelings. If you don't feel some type of way, then you're not predestined to be saved. You're going to hell. You weren't one of the elect. Those of you who feel like you've been saved will probably believe me and go to heaven. But even then, it's not such a plain thing. If you find yourself committing a sin, then you obviously are not saved and are going to hell. Sorry but that's just the way God works. If it seems unfair, just remember that God's ways are sovereign. If he made you to be a sinner and to go to hell, then at least be the best sinner you can be."

If one's personal feelings was the proof of salvation and we are saved against our will, as Calvin professed, then the words of the New Testament are superfluous. We don't need them at all. Certainly you don't seem to need them. You just make unsupported assertions as if they are true.
 
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Dave L

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If you knew about it you could post a scripture that says experience trumps obedience or that one feels saved before he obeys. John wrote that it is knowledge that trumps emotions and feelings as did every other New Testament author. I can only imagine what Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost would be like if this unfounded assertion of yours were even remotely true.

"Men, bretheren, what shall we do?"

"Then Peter said to them, when you get the feeling that you are saved, just go on about your lives however you are led by your feelings. If you don't feel some type of way, then you're not predestined to be saved. You're going to hell. You weren't one of the elect. Those of you who feel like you've been saved will probably believe me and go to heaven. But even then, it's not such a plain thing. If you find yourself committing a sin, then you obviously are not saved and are going to hell. Sorry but that's just the way God works. If it seems unfair, just remember that God's ways are sovereign. If he made you to be a sinner and to go to hell, then at least be the best sinner you can be."

If one's personal feelings was the proof of salvation and we are saved against our will, as Calvin professed, then the words of the New Testament are superfluous. We don't need them at all. Certainly you don't seem to need them. You just make unsupported assertions as if they are true.
If God didn't save us against our will, we didn't need saved. We already were.
 
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Al Touthentop

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If God didn't save us against our will, we didn't need saved. We already were.

Another totally unsupported assertion which can't be found in scripture. Proving that it's true. To a Calvinist, scripture is superfluous and unnecessary.
 
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Dave L

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Another totally unsupported assertion which can't be found in scripture. Proving that it's true. To a Calvinist, scripture is superfluous and unnecessary.
We all go the hell if he doesn't save some against their wills.
 
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Al Touthentop

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We all go the hell if he doesn't save some against their wills.

Nobody was ever saved by God against their will. Were it so, then God wouldn't be a just God and he would have been lying his figurative butt off in the scriptures when he demanded that people obey him of their own free will. They didn't have to do that at all. He made them do it.
 
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Dave L

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Nobody was ever saved by God against their will. Were it so, then God wouldn't be a just God and he would have been lying his figurative butt off in the scriptures when he demanded that people obey him of their own free will. They didn't have to do that at all. He made them do it.
People love sin and idols. They hate God unless he saves them.
 
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Al Touthentop

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People love sin and idols. They hate God unless he saves them.

He can't save them until they believe and obey. That's what scripture says. That's why Jesus calls belief a work.
 
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