Am I The Only One

JacksBratt

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In most cases that is true. I agree.
The turning away (repentance) comes after the verbal agreement (confession).

However, repentance (turning away) could come without VERBAL confession (agreement). A Catholic would understand this as a mental decision to stop doing something (turning away = repentance) prior to attending a formal confession with a Priest.

Saint Steven said:
Do you understand the difference between confession and repentance? Some people use the terms synonymously, but they are two different things.

Saint Steven said:
And that basis is repentance? (conditional salvation)
Do you believe in death bed confessions? (no repentance)
Again, a death bed confession is not lacking of repentance.

If you can feel remorse for your actions.. you can have instant repentance.


In the long and short of it.. It's not us "men" or "women" that decide if the death bed confession and repentance was legit... Only God knows a heart.

Due to God being a loving God... I doubt He is going to refuse a death bed request for salvation. He already knows the heart and knew that the person was going to repent in their last hour.
 
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GenemZ

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Torturing the pre-tortured soul forever would be the worst kind of sadism, would it not?

Does not sadism deserve JUDGEMENT?

Satan would want to torment you until you denounced Jesus Christ. He would do so forever if God allowed Satan to remain free.

Can't figure it out?

The punishment is just, and will serve as a constant reminder as to why the punishment was given.

The punishment? God will make Satan "live with himself" as others would have to live with him. How can he scream "injustice" when all God is doing is making Satan live with the effects of himself?

Just look how Satan could not wait to torment Job. Look how demons tormented those whom they possessed...

Can't figure it out?

Well? Maybe you can't.

Should I continue to reason with you? When its hell to do so?
 
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hedrick

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I’ve looked at a bunch of commentaries. The term second death is used in some Greek, Egyptian, and inter testamental Aramaic writings. Unfortunately this doesn’t solve the problem. It seems to indicate annihilation in some of the pagan references. The Aramaic references mostly seem ambiguous, but some equate it to Gehenna. Gehenna itself has issues. While it was mostLy considered eternal, in Jewish thought somewhere between most and almost everyone got out eventually (sometimes after a year). But not all. In what seem to be the earliest revenues it’s just a few named people who don’t get outl

It’s also interesting that death and Hades suffer it. But they are abstracts, that can’t meaningfully be tormented. On that ground it looks like a metaphor for destruction. But there are references elsewhere to eternal torment, which in Jewish thought seems to have been possible for at least some people. In the Rev that would be the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Since in most versions of Jewish thought most people got out of eternal punishment eventually, 14:9 could be something most got out of, presumably when death and Hades were destroyed, but 20:10 could identify the few that do not get out.

But I can’t with any confidence say that this is what the author of the Rev meant. Might the final vision in 21 include a pit outside Jerusalem with people being tormented? My personal answer is no. I think the pit imploded in 20:24. but I can’t with confidence rule that out in the authors view. It seems much less likely in 1 Cor 15.
 
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GenemZ

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Again, a death bed confession is not lacking of repentance.

If you can feel remorse for your actions.. you can have instant repentance.

Feeling remorse is not repentance. Getting caught doing something wrong is usually remorse.

When I was a Jew I felt no remorse when I believed in Jesus. But, I had to change my thinking (repentance) about what I was told about concerning Jesus.

Repentance at the time the Bible was written meant to have a change of mind. It did not require remorse. It does not mean it may not include remorse when someone realizes how much time they wasted being stubborn and stupid. But, that is sometimes an effect that comes with repentance.

Sometimes repentance can even cause happiness to see how much better the right choice makes. No remorse whatsoever about what was denied when changing one's mind.

Its those who want to put you on a guilt trip who seek remorse. Regret is not the same. One may regret that they did not believe in Christ sooner. But the joy gained leaves no room for remorse.


Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge,
But he who hates correction is stupid."
Prov 12:1​

Accepting correction is the state of repentance!

When someone repents after having believed he could lose his salvation? And sees the Scriptures to correct him, and accepts the truth? Does he have remorse? No. Just the opposite.

grace and peace .........
 
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GenemZ

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No sin is different than another at this point.

You are either embarrassed and humbly confessing as a guilty party, whether lust, sloth, lying, thievery, murder... whatever... There must be a recognition and acceptance of a sin committed, followed by a confession of that sin, and finally admitting it was wrong and repenting.

In some cases remorse leads to repentance. But, repentance does not require remorse. Remorse is usually for people who were being stupid and needed to feel pain in order to stop doing something. Not everyone does that. Some people will deal with the facts and simply change their mind. Repentance means to change one's mind about a matter. Like a person having grown up in a Jehovah Witness community coming to Christ after Scripture is revealed as the means to change his mind.
 
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GenemZ

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I’ve looked at a bunch of commentaries. The term second death is used in some Greek, Egyptian, and inter testamental Aramaic writings. Unfortunately this doesn’t solve the problem. It seems to indicate annihilation in some of the pagan references. The Aramaic references mostly seem ambiguous, but some equate it to Gehenna. Gehenna itself has issues. While it was mostLy considered eternal, in Jewish thought somewhere between most and almost everyone got out eventually (sometimes after a year). But not all. In what seem to be the earliest revenues it’s just a few named people who don’t get outl

There will be a resurrection of all unbelievers. They died once.

When resurrected they will be alive in bodies to face judgement.. to die a second time.

On the other hand... Believers who are resurrected will never die the second death.
 
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JacksBratt

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In some cases remorse leads to repentance. But, repentance does not require remorse. Remorse is usually for people who were being stupid and needed to feel pain in order to stop doing something. Not everyone does that. Some people will deal with the facts and simply change their mind. Repentance means to change one's mind about a matter. Like a person having grown up in a Jehovah Witness community coming to Christ after Scripture is revealed as the means to change his mind.
Again, God is the judge.
 
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plain jayne

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So most were created for eternal torture.
I never said that. Will there be people in hell? Yes.

Were they "created" for it? No.

Then why will they be there? Because they rejected Jesus Christ. God created us in the womb and loved us there. But he doesn't robotically and forcibly turn some people into Christians and cold-heartedly pre-destine some to burn for eternity.

Everyone has a choice.

Cain had a choice. God DIRECTLY explained things to his face as to how to be accepted. Cain say "no".

The rich young ruler, whom the Bible says that Jesus loved, walked away from Christ.

Abraham said yes. Rahab said yes. Peter and Andrew said yes. Lydia said yes.
 
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GenemZ

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You are either embarrassed and humbly confessing as a guilty party, whether lust, sloth, lying, thievery, murder... whatever... There must be a recognition and acceptance of a sin committed, followed by a confession of that sin, and finally admitting it was wrong and repenting.

Young believers may experience all those emotional reactions when learning to deal with sin. We can not repent of sin. 1 John 1:9, tells us we are to acknowledge/name our sin.

Sin short circuits our filling of the Spirit. Acknowledging our sin to God (even devoid of emotional response) reset the circuit breaker, and restores us to walking in the Light.

The Greek word found as "confess" is ... "homologeō."

It holds two possible meanings.

First one, was a term commonly used in the Roman courts. It was used in reference to a lawyer citing a case as the precedent. Its citing that such an issue had been already been determined and dealt with. In other words? The Cross has already dealt with our sin we acknowledged. It does not require being moved emotionally when naming your sins. The more we are comfortable with the faithfulness of God, the more we can relax and simply name our sin. and QUICKLY get back into fellowship.

The second meaning of homologeō ? It can be rendered to mean "to say the same thing." Doing that does not require an emotional response to be expressed when you confess in that manner.

Why does "saying the same thing," place us back in fellowship with God?

Can two walk together, Except they have agreed?" Amos 3:3​

When we acknowledged our sin? We are agreeing with God! How?

For what God calls sin. We call sin!

When agreed? God welcomes us back into walking together once more.

Emotional response can slow down the process of getting back into walking and thinking with God. For there will be times when we are in the heat of spiritual warfare and we slip up and react in sinning. Its like what we had on our M16 rifle during the Viet Nam era. There was a bolt that were were to slam when a round jammed. When under fire you want to react instantly and commence firing again. Likewise .. when we slip up when dealing with some evil and sin? We get angry in a wrong way and react? We instantly name it, and reload our doctrine back in our heart (thinking) to deal with an enemy ambush. :anchor:

Confession is to become quick and easy as we mature.
 
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GenemZ

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I never said that. Will there be people in hell? Yes.

Were they "created" for it? No.


Agreed!

The following verse could not exist if God created some men to be doomed to Hell. For Jesus paid the penalty for their sins also

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for
ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 Jn 2:2

No unbeliever is going to hell for their sins. The reason they end up there is for their rejection of God. They reject God while He is drawing them before they find themselves rejecting Christ. Their rejection of Christ is a sign that they have already rejected God's drawing.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
Jn 6:44​

That is why it says that those who do not believe are "already" condemned. They rejected the drawing of God.. God therefore has already condemned them...


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does
not believe is condemned already, because he has not

believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jn 3:18​


It does not say ... "he will be condemned" when he stands before the Lord. It says that right now he is already condemned. How can we know? For he refused to believe in Jesus Christ. Meaning... he rejected the drawing of God.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes
to me I will never drive away." Jn 6:37​

The Father only gives to the Son those who do not reject His drawing them! Those who reject stand condemned, and will not believe in Jesus Christ when presented the Gospel.

grace and peace .......
 
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JacksBratt

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So most were created for eternal torture.
What?

How do you arrive there?

Hell was created for the Devil and his fallen angels.
When man sinned, the destination was hell even though it was not the plan.
Any and every human can have eternal life.
Nobody was created for eternal torture. God became a man and suffered the price, death, for every human so that they would not have to go to hell.
It's their individual choice. The gift is free. No works are even needed. Just admitting that you are guilty and deserve hell... and asking for a pardon.

It's the easiest thing to do for those that have a repentant heart.
 
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GenemZ

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Hell was created for the Devil and his fallen angels.
When man sinned, the destination was hell even though it was not the plan.

How do you know that was not the plan? Please explain.

The Lamb of God was slain when? After men fell?

If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth? Then God also knew men would fall. The blood of Christ was to save men from Hell. Therefore, God had Hell in His plan for those who rejected the blood of Christ.
 
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JacksBratt

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How do you know that was not the plan? Please explain.

The Lamb of God was slain when? After men fell?

If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth? Then God also knew men would fall. The blood of Christ was to save men from Hell. Therefore, God had Hell in His plan for those who rejected the blood of Christ.

The Lamb was slain after man fell. Before the cross, salvation was gained by obedience to the law and through sacrifices of animals. All of this was done before the Lamb was slain but in the faith that the Lamb would be slain and pay for all sins. All humans before and after the cross.... were saved by the work on the cross.

Those before are saved by faith in the coming of Christ. All those after the cross by faith in the fact that Christ was the messiah.

This scripture describe who hell was created for. It was not created for man.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

These are two scriptures of many, that show that Christ died for every human that existed. It was not the original plan for man to sin.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Corinthians 5:15



15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Since one man sinned and condemned the entire human race.... God sent His only son to become one man, to live sin free and then pay the price of death for the entire human race.

He did this because He never planned for humans to be in hell.

Therefore, each and every human has the chance to be saved. It is up to them and them alone. Each will have a time in their life where they will be counted as accepting or rejecting Christs gift of free salvation.

Upon your death Satan will convict you. He is the prosecution. Your defense is futile as Satan will be correct. Every human is a sinner and must suffer the death penalty.

Christ will stand for you, in front of God, the judge, and state "this human accepted my gift of salvation and believed on My name. They are seen as innocent as my blood washes away their sins."

Thus, you will be seen as being without blemish as Christ paid your death sentence.

He will not state how many times you went to church or how much offering you gave at the church. Nor will He state how many you told the gospel to or how many missionary trips you went on. He will not state how many old ladies you helped cross the street or dinners you brought to those in times of trouble.

He will simply state that you are found innocent by way of His death and resurrection and the fact that you admitted you were a sinner and asked for forgiveness and believed that His death and resurrection would save your soul.

His work saved you.

Your works will come later when you get your crowns and rewards after you have already been granted salvation.
 
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GenemZ

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The Lamb was slain after man fell. Before the cross, salvation was gained by obedience to the law and through sacrifices of animals. All of this was done before the Lamb was slain but in the faith that the Lamb would be slain and pay for all sins. All humans before and after the cross.... were saved by the work on the cross.


Not slain after man fell. In God's knowing? Jesus was already slain.

I guess you have not yet learned the Scripture where it tells us?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not
been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the
foundation of the world."
Rev 13:8​

God already had a plan for the unbeliever because He knew man would fall. That plan included those whom He knew would reject Him.

There is a way that God has as to not know who would reject Him in the process of creating mankind. The way to do this feat was revealed to us in the Incarnation. Jesus holds the key to understanding how.

Without knowing this ability found within the Trinity, trips up a good number of Christians who only see God's omniscience, thinking He had to create some men not to believe.

If you have an open mind? I can explain.


Grace and peace ..........
 
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JacksBratt

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Not slain after man fell. In God's knowing? Jesus was already slain.

I guess you have not yet learned the Scripture where it tells us?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not
been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the
foundation of the world."
Rev 13:8​

God already had a plan for the unbeliever because He knew man would fall. That plan included those whom He knew would reject Him.

There is a way that God has as to not know who would reject Him in the process of creating mankind. The way to do this feat was revealed to us in the Incarnation. Jesus holds the key to understanding how.

Without knowing this ability found within the Trinity, trips up a good number of Christians who only see God's omniscience, thinking He had to create some men not to believe.

If you have an open mind? I can explain.


Grace and peace ..........
Yes, figuratively. However Christ was slain in earth time on the cross.

Yes, God is all knowing. He knew who would follow and who would not... This does not remove the free will of all.

His all knowing does not mean that He created them for destruction. He created all for eternal fellowship.. Some choose not to and He already knew they wouldn't.

I raised all my kids for productive lives contributing to society. So do millions of other parents. We know that not all children are going to follow the rules and many will become failures and criminals and other disappointing adults.

That doesn't mean that we conceived them for this failure and the punishments that they receive.
 
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GenemZ

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Yes, figuratively. However Christ was slain in earth time on the cross.

He was manifested to us as slain on the Cross.

God wants to train us to start thinking with His mind.

He already sees you in Heaven in Christ.

Made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:5-6


When we begin to see reality through God's eyes? It transforms us into the image of Christ.

We also begin to see how we are more than conquerors.

The Holy Spirit wants to stabilize us in the transformation... For its like walking on water for us.

grace and peace.....
 
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FredVB

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The following verse could not exist if God created some men to be doomed to Hell. For Jesus paid the penalty for their sins also

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for
ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn 2:2

No unbeliever is going to hell for their sins. The reason they end up there is for their rejection of God.

We are told that the way is narrow, and wide is the way to destruction, so I think that passage from 1 John 2 should be understood differently, it was for all peoples of the world, rather than just local, or Jewish, believers, "not only for ours", but any individuals among them would still be on the way of destruction, not responding to the grace from God revealed to them, so they are still in their sins, and there are those who do die in their sins. And there is judgment for all sins, whether those Christ bore that delivers us in him from or those that turned from God's grace revealed to them with which to come and be in Christ, and still in their sins. But no one is excluded because of being of the wrong people, anywhere in the world.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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We are told that the way is narrow, and wide is the way to destruction, so I think that passage from 1 John 2 should be understood differently, it was for all peoples of the world, rather than just local, or Jewish, believers, "not only for ours", but any individuals among them would still be on the way of destruction, not responding to the grace from God revealed to them, so they are still in their sins, and there are those who do die in their sins. And there is judgment for all sins, whether those Christ bore that delivers us in him from or those that turned from God's grace revealed to them with which to come and be in Christ, and still in their sins. But no one is excluded because of being of the wrong people, anywhere in the world.
Christ died for the sins of all people.
Those who are destroyed in hell are so for lack of faith, rejection of Christ as Savior. All who believe in Christ, that is have faith in Christ Jesus, have been credited with righteousness as Romans declares. So then in effect the unbeliever dies for their sins.
 
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FredVB

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Christ died for the sins of all people.
Those who are destroyed in hell are so for lack of faith, rejection of Christ as Savior. All who believe in Christ, that is have faith in Christ Jesus, have been credited with righteousness as Romans declares. So then in effect the unbeliever dies for their sins.

I don't see basis from scriptures for the position that Christ's atonement covers all people entirely. The way is narrow, what could that mean? Many will perish (I don't claim that means they are annihilated), it is certain from some passages that there are people who will die in their sins, and there is not salvation for any without what Christ does for them, which needs their response with faith, having repentance. Their sins are the reason for what judgment is applied to them, not just lacking faith, though the right faith with this repentance is needed to be avoiding that. With this response, being in Christ we have Christ's righteousness accounted to us.
 
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