abortion

[Gusoceros]

OK. So, how about some specifics, rather than Hanity approved rhetoric?

Nice-

Morality specific to keeping your pants on, respecting yourself, your partner, not being self-indulgent, considering your future spouse and your partner's future spouse, disease awareness, abstinence works every time, viriginity is to be valued, sanctity of life, responsibility for your actions, convenience is not just hitting the reset button of life, etc. It really isnt that hard.

This is not something that needs to be invented- the principles that support them have just been tossed out.

G

 

[EnemyPartyII]

This is not something that needs to be invented- the principles that support them have just been tossed out.

Really? Can you please point me iout the time when these pre-existing principles were in effect and there was no pre-marital or extra marital sex?

 

[Gusoceros]

Really? Can you please point me iout the time when these pre-existing principles were in effect and there was no pre-marital or extra marital sex?

Wow- did I say that?

More importantly- do you think there is a perfect solution? Do you think I am proposing anything close to perfect?

What is the standard by which abortion should be approached?

G

 

[allhart]

Life isnt always fair- but actions do have consequences. In both cases- we need to be responsible for our actions. Teach people to keep their pants on, teach morals in the schools, and hold people accountable for their actions.

G

Thank you. God loves us all and ,so do i. The issues needs to be addressed. (SIN)For the others feel no shame! This is a problem! There even bold in what they do and say . Like in words like freedom, tolerance and grace. They shake there fists at God and do what they want and expect no penalty's for what they do. They are run a muck.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What is the standard by which abortion should be approached?

I'd like to reduce abortion rates as much as possible. I just don't think interfering with what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is the way to do it

 

[allhart]

I'd like to reduce abortion rates as much as possible. I just don't think interfering with what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is the way to do it

I'm sorry you have a problem with what ever God says.Sin is sin and he deals with it now or later.We can deal with it as individuals or as a nation have it your way ,but i don't want to get caught up in it. Maybe he will spare me. Like he did lot.

 

[Gusoceros]

I'd like to reduce abortion rates as much as possible. I just don't think interfering with what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is the way to do it

Wow- you sure have a way of stripping out what is said, and turning it into something different. How is teaching people to be moral, upright, and responsible interfering in what they do in the bedroom?

G

 

[elvenwanderer111]

But doesn't the quite poor chance of any given fertilised egg actually being born as a living human ANYWAY, rather contradict the idea that each embryo is a precious individual?

I am unsure what you mean, if an egg is not fertalized by the sperm a being is not created at that moment, the egg remains unfertalized, etc... But, if the egg is fertalized then there is a life formed, and that life is human. It is not just a ball of organic matter, it performs all of the criteria of life, it eats, it reacts to changes in the mothers body, something that young cannnot reproduce just as an average 10 year old cannot reproduce, and the fetus contains DNA or deoxyribonucleic acid

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Wow- you sure have a way of stripping out what is said, and turning it into something different. How is teaching people to be moral, upright, and responsible interfering in what they do in the bedroom?

Because you want to impose your own personal views of morality onto others, and what they do in the bedroom... when you say "take responsibility, and act morally"... don't you, in fact, mean that you think people should only do what you think they should be doing in the bedroom?

Adequate contraception, appropriately disseminated, makes the whole abortion issue moot. I don't understand why people who are anti-abortion aren't pro contraception as the most effective answer

 

[Gusoceros]

Because you want to impose your own personal views of morality onto others, and what they do in the bedroom... when you say "take responsibility, and act morally"... don't you, in fact, mean that you think people should only do what you think they should be doing in the bedroom?

No- you are making this into something it isnt- again. This is about being responsible. This is about being respectful and courteous. Modesty is a virtuous principle. If kids are taught that it is OK to have sex outside of marriage, then they will reap the harvest of these decisions- and they get further consequences of their decisions to deal with- pregnancies. This is about the Right to Life- there is no such thing as a right that violates the right of another- the woman's right to claim her body as her own was waived when she took her pants off. She can not claim this right over the right to life of another- all rights end where they violate the rights of another. The children should be taught principles that respect the institution of marriage, each other, that sex is a wonderful act between a husband and wife, and there are many reasons for it- the practical ones are that it requires the effort of a household to raise a child- it is expensive, and time consuming. It is also not acceptable to kill someone because you dont want the hassle of it- sorry, it is now the parents responsibility- both of them.

Adequate contraception, appropriately disseminated, makes the whole abortion issue moot. I don't understand why people who are anti-abortion aren't pro contraception as the most effective answer

No it doesnt- contraception is not the answer- because contraception fails, and then you are left promoting the danger of premarital sex, and are left with the decisions of sex outside of marriage again- see above.

The point is that we need to be teaching people the truth- and that is that sex makes babies, that outside of marriage the context should be discouraged, that respect and responsibility should be elevated in our society, not to hand our children condoms.

Its interesting to me- that the liberal position seems to be interested in handing out condoms, and fighting against the ownership of guns. They have them reveresed- they are fighting the wrong loaded gun

Ka Chow

G

 

[EnemyPartyII]

No it doesnt- contraception is not the answer- because contraception fails, and then you are left promoting the danger of premarital sex, and are left with the decisions of sex outside of marriage again- see above.

So, I say again... you don't like the idea of people doing things in the privacy of their bedrooms of which you don't personally approve...

Sorry, but in a free society, it doesn't work that way. People get to make decisions about what they want to do and who they want to do it with. Now, you don't have to approve of it, but you do have to tolerate it. Trying to force people to act in a way you approve of by producing a dichotomy of "celibacy OR parenthood" is false, when we have access to effective, dafe contraception.

Yes, on occasion, contraception DOES fail... but do you know what the frequency is? The method I think is best, and the one I seriously advocate being issue to all 16 year old girls, is the implanon contraceptive implant. When it is correctly administered, the failure rate is somewhere under 1%... and thats of all people, not per time you have sex...

So its really one of those "lesser of two evils" things...

Firstly, you need to accept that people are going to have sex, no matter what your personal opinion is... then decide that

EITHER abortion is worse than sex for enjoyment, and take steps to make sure that everyone who will use it has access to contraception, so they don't subsequently want abortions for unplanned pregnancy

OR decide that contraception is the greater evil and restrict it... in which case, whether its legal or not, people are going to have abortions.

Beating your breast and wailing about how people should be chaste like in the good old days is NOT an adequate solution, that is, if you really want to do something about the problem.

It strikes me as a very, VERY sad possibility that many of the "right to life-rs" out there, don't ACTUALLY care about all those cute little baby foetuses... that what really irks them is the idea of people having sex outside of what the RTLer considers to be "acceptible situations"... and figures, consciously or subconsciously, that the best way to make people keep there pants on is to make pregnancy as likely as possible, and that being forced to carry an unwanted child to term is suitable punishment for "evil carnal lusting".

Oh, and at this point, I'll take the opportunity to reiterate that I too, am against abortion.

 

[Gusoceros]

So, I say again... you don't like the idea of people doing things in the privacy of their bedrooms of which you don't personally approve...

Sorry, but in a free society, it doesn't work that way.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what Im saying. Im not talking about forcing people to remain celibate. Im talking about a free people being educated in personal responsibility, respect, and being held accountable for the results of their choices- in ways that dont violate the right to life. There is -0- freedom being restricted here.

What is freedom if people are not also accountable for their actions?

Bottom line- sex makes babies- they dont come from any other action. Abortion is not an acceptable form of birth control- because it violates the right to life.

G

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Bottom line- sex makes babies- they dont come from any other action. Abortion is not an acceptable form of birth control- because it violates the right to life.

I agree that abortion is inappropriate as birth control. So, if we want to decrease abortion rates, lets make sure that there IS appropriate birth control available... hows that?

 

[Gusoceros]

I agree that abortion is inappropriate as birth control. So, if we want to decrease abortion rates, lets make sure that there IS appropriate birth control available... hows that?

Um- no- it is contradictory to the solution. The right context for sex should be taught, respect for others, and personal responsibility should be the themes. Teaching that, and handing them a condom, is counterproductive to the message. The problem is not the baby, it is who is having the baby, and why- but more importantly- that they are choosing to abort it. Your solution only handles the problem at the act, and is ineffecient, and doesnt address the problem of unwanted pregnancy after the fact, or before the fact.

G

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You are assuming that the bulk of unwanted pregnancies occur to young hugh school aged people?

I believe abortions are usually carried out on patients in their mid to late 20s, although I stand to be corrected.

I AM certain, however, that the vast bulk of unplanned pregnancy is NOT the result of contraceptive failure

Now if you would explain how giving people access to contraception is contrary to accepting responsibility? i would have said the exact opposite...

People who have sex without contraception, thinking "meh, it won't happen to me"... sure, arent an icon of responsible people... but you seem to equate giving people contraception in the hope they use it to prevent unwanted pregnancy with irresponsibility... if I understand your position correctly

 

[Gusoceros]

You are assuming that the bulk of unwanted pregnancies occur to young hugh school aged people?

I believe abortions are usually carried out on patients in their mid to late 20s, although I stand to be corrected.

I AM certain, however, that the vast bulk of unplanned pregnancy is NOT the result of contraceptive failure

Now if you would explain how giving people access to contraception is contrary to accepting responsibility? i would have said the exact opposite...

People who have sex without contraception, thinking "meh, it won't happen to me"... sure, arent an icon of responsible people... but you seem to equate giving people contraception in the hope they use it to prevent unwanted pregnancy with irresponsibility... if I understand your position correctly

You only address how to have sex with contraception- you ignore the point altogether that the act of sex is the thing causing the problem in the first place- when the consequences are not in the realm acceptability. I have repeated myself for about a page and a half now about all the reasons why morality should be taught, and its impact. I have talked about accountability after the pregnancy as well- both of these positions you are ignoring, or misrepresenting as a restriction of freedom.

G

 

[Ave Maria]

Abortion is evil and should be banned. I would never have an abortion.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You only address how to have sex with contraception- you ignore the point altogether that the act of sex is the thing causing the problem in the first place- when the consequences are not in the realm acceptability. I have repeated myself for about a page and a half now about all the reasons why morality should be taught, and its impact. I have talked about accountability after the pregnancy as well- both of these positions you are ignoring, or misrepresenting as a restriction of freedom.

I'm all for accountability after a pregnancy occurs... but I say again, whats wrong with accepting people are going to have sex, and providing them the means to avoid unwanted pregnancies AND allow them to have sex?

Simple enough question, I'd have thought. I'll continue to ask it as long as you continue to dodge it.

 

[ScottBot]

Unfortunately, abortion is a necessary evil in society. I personally would never have an abortion. That does not mean that I can condemn those that do.

Does that mean that murder or theft is a necessary evil? The fundamental question being: Is a fetus life from the moment of conception. Most scientist agree with that assumption. If it is, then abortion is murder. If a fetus is not life at conception, then when does it become life? Is it when the baby is born? There are advocates who believe that it is okay to allow children who are born as a result of a botched abortion to die. It is called "post birth abortion". The legislature need to, once and for all, take this out of the courts and make some black and white concrete decision on this matter.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Does that mean that murder or theft is a necessary evil? The fundamental question being: Is a fetus life from the moment of conception. Most scientist agree with that assumption. If it is, then abortion is murder. If a fetus is not life at conception, then when does it become life? Is it when the baby is born? There are advocates who believe that it is okay to allow children who are born as a result of a botched abortion to die. It is called "post birth abortion". The legislature need to, once and for all, take this out of the courts and make some black and white concrete decision on this matter.

The problem with "black and white decisions"... is that there is so much grey area in the matter...

Further, I don't think its a matter of when the foetus becomes a life... but more when it is considered life in its own right... and then, when it may be considered a sentient person...

Now, work with me here...

We KNOW, from experience, that even in jurisdictions where abortion is illegal, they still continue to happen, right? So legislating against the practice doesn't make them stop, although it DOES increase the risk of injury and death to the mother, and in the case of failed attempts, virtually guarantees the likelihood of birth defects...

But I digress...

It seems to ME... that the only real way to reduce abortion rates, is to stop unwanted pregnancies. Do you have a workable suggestion to do this?