A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[DavidPT]

When Satan is driven down from roaming to heaven to accuse God's people on earth, he knows
that he has little time left. This causes him to desperately do all he can to put off his final destruction.
So he summons Antichrist up and that is the most significant cause for this end of the age great tribulation.

Those just raptured to the throne of God in the third heavens have overcome and rejoice.
Those left upon the earth rather have WOE instead of victorious rejoicing.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:12)

But why was the Devil driven down? It was because of the rapture of a remnant of overcoming saints. And the serving angels
on their behalf then drove the Devil down to his new limited environment of only being on the earth.

The universal woman of light representing all God's people brings forth a remnant called a man-child.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. (Rev. 12:5-9)

When the man-child (the stronger part-overcomers) from the woman is raptured, Satan has no more ground or room to appear
before God accusing His people. The angels who are the ministering servants of the human saints led by Michael
drive Satan down. The man-child has been a "dispensational instrument" to change the age.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 10,11)

As if it makes sense that the manchild is meaning the raptured church the fact it also indicates this about the manchild---and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born (Revelation 12:4) . The keywords being 'delivered' and 'born', things not relevant to a raptured church. The assault on the woman's child begins as soon as he is born. Obviously pertaining to Christ's birth.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child(starting at birth), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron(meaning once He returns, the 2nd coming) : and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne(meaning some days later following His death and resurrection) .

Zero in any of the above involving a raptured church. And besides, looking at Matthew 24, there is no coming of Christ in any sense recorded prior to the beginning of great tribulation, nor during it. The coming of Christ recorded in Matthew 24 is after great tribulation, Matthew 24:29 makes that crystal clear. If I am wrong, then show in Matthew 24 where it records a coming(return) of Christ prior to great tribulation, or even during it?

 

[Dan Perez]

One common occurence imo for Christians is to fail to see how God's move on earth in His people
causes prophetic events to happen.

It is not prophecy alone but some of His people wisely cooperating with His will
and effectively praying for God to do what He promised.

An example in the OT is Jeremiah's prophecy that the captured Israelites after 70 years of Babylonian captivity
would return to the promised land. The question I would ask:

What caused the return to the promised land in the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah?
Was the cause of the return Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 25:8-12 or was it the regular prayers of Daniel for God to do so? (Dan. 9:2, 6:10)

I say it was BOTH. God's promise through the prophet Jeremiah was part of the cause.
And Daniel's understanding of the prophecy and his dedicated desperate prayers for the fulfillment was part of the cause.

This thread will show who the great tribulation is not just a calender event. The cause of such an event
is the faithfulness, readiness, and cooperation in living and petitioning of the church, or at least a remnant of the church.
A Rapture will be the cause or the fulfillment of prophecy of the great tribulation.

I have yet to see a Greek word for RAPTURE and if you have found it , would be pleased to evaluate it ?

dan p

 

[Oseas]

A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation​

A Rapture will be the cause or the fulfillment of prophecy of the great tribulation.

No, it is not the erroneously called rapture.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. What does the Word of GOD say?

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time(JESUS confirmed this prophecy. Matthew 24:15 and 21-23.Take a look.): and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book(Revelation 7:3 combined with Revelation 9:4).

That said, get ready

The Word is GOD, self-executing / self-executable, understand?

 

[Oseas]

The man child is Jesus.

No, the man child is NOT Jesus, but Michael.

JESUS did not say He is the man child to His angel, neither also to John through His messenger. What you are saying, you are saying erroneously by speculation, of course.

 

[Douggg]

No, the man child is NOT Jesus, but Michael.

JESUS did not say He is the man child to His angel, neither also to John through His messenger. What you are saying, you are saying erroneously by speculation, of course.

Are you referring to what is in Revelation 12?

Revelation 12 begins as a great wonder John sees before him, a display. Jesus is not speaking in the text of Revelation 12.

As what John sees advances, John sees a war in heaven between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels. Michael is one of the chief angels.

Daniel 10:13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. kjv

Daniel 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. kjv

Michael is not the man-child in Revelation 12, but Jesus is, who was born to Israel, the woman in Revelation 12.

Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Oseas]

Are you referring to what is in Revelation 12?

Revelation 12 begins as a great wonder John sees before him, a display. Jesus is not speaking in the text of Revelation 12.

As what John sees advances, John sees a war in heaven between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels. Michael is one of the chief angels.

Daniel 10:13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. kjv

Daniel 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. kjv

Michael is not the man-child in Revelation 12, but Jesus is, who was born to Israel, the woman in Revelation 12.

Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock-Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective-Matthew 16:23. You are denying what GOD the Father gave to JESUS around 60 years after His ascension, to shew unto His servants things which shortly would come to pass; and JESUS sent and SIGNIFIED it by His angel unto His servant John.
In Revelation 12 JESUS is saying of the appearance of Michael-Daniel 12:1-3- whose presence causes great tribulation, as JESUS said in His Ministry-Matthew 24:15-25-. And Paul said to the Church of Thessalonians that Michael comes first, it before JESUS coming-1Thes.4:16 confirming Daniel 12:1-3, even including the wonderful event of resurrection.

Furthermore, it is Michael who will cast down the red Dragon out of this current heavenly environment, the current heavenly place in Christ in which the people of GOD worship Him and His beloved Son JESUS Christ (heavenly place?Ephesians 1:3). The Dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world, will be cast into the bottomless pit from now on, and his messengers into the lake of fire. The Word is GOD, self-executing/self-executable, understand? What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, not satanic opinions, devilish speculations and imaginations, demonic conjectures.

My Lord GOD said: Isaiah 33:10-14

10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off(the Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(the Jewish people) acknowledge my might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

It's my GOD who is a devouring fire.

If any man build upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the Day(the LORD's Day, this Day arrived) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

You are denying what GOD the Father gave to JESUS around 60 years after His ascension, to shew unto His servants things which shortly would come to pass; and JESUS sent and SIGNIFIED IT by His angel unto His servant John.

 

[Douggg]

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock-Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective-Matthew 16:23. You are denying what GOD the Father gave to JESUS around 60 years after His ascension, to shew unto His servants things which shortly would come to pass; and JESUS sent and SIGNIFIED it by His angel unto His servant John.
In Revelation 12 JESUS is saying of the appearance of Michael-Daniel 12:1-3- whose presence causes great tribulation, as JESUS said in His Ministry-Matthew 24:15-25-. And Paul said to the Church of Thessalonians that Michael comes first, it before JESUS coming-1Thes.4:16 confirming Daniel 12:1-3, even including the wonderful event of resurrection.

Furthermore, it is Michael who will cast down the red Dragon out of this current heavenly environment, the current heavenly place in Christ in which the people of GOD worship Him and His beloved Son JESUS Christ (heavenly place?Ephesians 1:3). The Dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world, will be cast into the bottomless pit from now on, and his messengers into the lake of fire. The Word is GOD, self-executing/self-executable, understand? What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, not satanic opinions, devilish speculations and imaginations, demonic conjectures.

My Lord GOD said: Isaiah 33:10-14

10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off(the Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(the Jewish people) acknowledge my might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

It's my GOD who is a devouring fire.

If any man build upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the Day(the LORD's Day, this Day arrived) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

You are denying what GOD the Father gave to JESUS around 60 years after His ascension, to shew unto His servants things which shortly would come to pass; and JESUS sent and SIGNIFIED IT by His angel unto His servant John.

Oseas, please try to control your emotions.

Michael is not the man-child in Revelation 12, but Jesus is, who was born to Israel, the woman in Revelation 12.

 

[Oseas]

Oseas, please try to control your emotions.

Michael is not the man-child in Revelation 12, but Jesus is, who was born to Israel, the woman in Revelation 12.

No true, by the way, he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from above is above all. What matters and prevails is what Michael commanded to John(and John obeyed), saying: WRITE, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of GOD.
And John fell at his feet (feet of Michael) to worship him. And Michael said unto John: See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of JESUS: worship GOD: for the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy -.and John wrote-, understand? Well, to understand what JESUS revealed it is only for him who has the Spirit of Christ.

What you say is not what JESUS SIGNIFIED it by His angel unto His servant John. What you are preaching and spreading is tares. Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock like Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective-Matthew 16:23.

JESUS is not MICHAEL -and vice-versa-


If any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall BE MADE MANIFEST: for the Day shall declare it(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium), because it shall be REVEALED by fire(My GOD is a devouring fire. the Word is GOD, understand?); and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1 Cor.3:12-13

 

[Douggg]

JESUS is not MICHAEL -and vice-versa-

Oseas, in the Revelation 12...

The woman is Israel.

The man -child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven is Jesus.

Michael is one of the chief good angels of God.

-----------------------------------------------

Oseas you do you think is....

1. The woman in Revelation 12 ?

2. The man-child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven ?

 

[Oseas]

Oseas, in the Revelation 12...

The woman is Israel.

No, it is not Israel, absolutely. JESUS WAS NOT SAYING TO JOHN, through Michael in Apocalypse(Revelation 1:1), that He was born in Israel. What you are preaching and spreading is ridiculous, no truer, it is a devilish tares.

The man -child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven is Jesus.
Michael is one of the chief good angels of God.

The woman is not the nation of Israel, it is also a false interpretation of the Word of GOD, as happened in Genesis 3:1. Michael was born and was was caught up unto GOD -the Word is GOD, GOD the Father-, and to His Throne. GOD's Throne? Now, Righteousness and Judgment are the
foundation/the base of GOD's Throne, understand? A fire goes before Him, and burns up His enemies round about, understand?

You know not Michael, he is one who was in Sodom and Gomorra to destroy the cities, it is he who was with Moses from Mount Sinai(Acts 7:30) till his death-Juda1:9- , and after was with Joshua-Joshua 5:13-15. It was Michael who stopped Balaam in his evil way, the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Michael manifested himself many times in the OT, he would destroy Jerusalem if GOD had not commanded him to stop the plagues and the enormous mortality caused among the people(70.000)-2Samuel 24:15-25. Michael was even involved in the reconstruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. Michael is a warrior, a man of War, he also is a lord, but my lord JESUS is the King of kings, and Lord of lords, understand?

Oseas you do you think is....

1. The woman in Revelation 12 ?
2. The man-child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven ?

I do not think anythink. I work with the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand? Now, at the END of time, Michael is sent here-Daniel 12:1-3- to make war against the red Dragon(and his messengers) that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: the Dragon will be cast out from this current heavenly place in Christ-Ephesians 1:3- , into the earth, and his messengers will also be cast out with him. He has Power to shut heaven and to turn peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues.

Get ready

 

[Douggg]

No, it is not Israel, absolutely. JESUS WAS NOT SAYING TO JOHN, through Michael in Apocalypse(Revelation 1:1), that He was born in Israel. What you are preaching and spreading is ridiculous, no truer, it is a devilish tares.

Jesus was born in Israel, specifically Bethlehem. The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

Oseas you do you think is....

1. The woman in Revelation 12 ?
2. The man-child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven ?

Oseas, you responded with.... "I do not think anythink."

So you have no idea who the woman is in Revelation 12 ? Nor who the man-child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven is ?

Without understanding who those are, it is impossible to understand the contents of Revelation 12 in the verses about the woman.

 

[Oseas]

Jesus was born in Israel, specifically Bethlehem. The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

JESUS was not saying to John through Michael that He was born in Bethlehem. Your devilish interpretation is ridiculous, you are mocking of my Lord JESUS and of His angel. What you are saying above about JESUS's birth even the satanic idolaters also say , although being blind by the spirit of Devil.
The woman is not Israel, absolutely, no, she is not Israel, but the Church of the Lord, the body of Christ. JESUS WAS NOT SAYING TO JOHN, through Michael in Apocalypse(Revelation 1:1), that He was born in Israel. What you are preaching and spreading is ridiculous, no truer, it is a devilish tares.

Oseas, you responded with.... "I do not think anythink."

What I really reesponded is that I work with the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand? Now, at the END of time, Michael is sent here-Daniel 12:1-3- to make war against the red Dragon(and his messengers) that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: the Dragon will be cast out from this current heavenly place in Christ-Ephesians 1:3- , into the earth, and his messengers will also be cast out with him. He has Power to shut heaven and to turn peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues.

Get ready

So you have no idea who the woman is in Revelation 12 ?

Yes, I do, I know who is the woman in Revelation 12, now, now, she is my mother, as I already said sentence above. It is she who gave birth to Michael, and John fell at his feet (feet of Michael) to worship him.
And Michael said unto John: See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of JESUS: worship GOD: for the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy - and John wrote-, understand? Well, to understand what JESUS revealed it is only for him who has the Spirit of Christ.

Nor who the man-child she gave birth to and was caught up to heaven is ?

As I have peremptorily stated before, the man-child is Michael, not JESUS.
You are saying and preaching Michael is JESUS because you know not JESUS, nor Michael. No surprise, the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Without understanding who those are, it is impossible to understand the contents of Revelation 12 in the verses about the woman.

You can clearly see that by looking in the mirror.
My Lord JESUS said: Unto every one that has shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that has not shall be taken away even that which he has. Cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth-Matthew 25:29-30.

 

[oikonomia]

A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation​

I have no problem with the word "rapture". But if you do then the phrase "caught up" is straight out of Revelation 12:5.

No, it is not the erroneously called rapture.

I think there is no "error." But substitute "caught up" where I write "rapture."

and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. What does the Word of GOD say?

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time(JESUS confirmed this prophecy. Matthew 24:15 and 21-23.Take a look.): and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book(Revelation 7:3 combined with Revelation 9:4).

That said, get ready

The Word is GOD, self-executing / self-executable, understand?

No, the man child is NOT Jesus, but Michael.

JESUS did not say He is the man child to His angel, neither also to John through His messenger. What you are saying, you are saying erroneously by speculation, of course.

If the man-child is not a group of saints out from the total body of God's saints, than tell us WHO is being referred to by the plural pronouns "they" "them" and "their" in verse 11?

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Does Muchael the arch-angel need "the blood of the Lamb" for his sins?
I thought the good angels are sinless unlike the redeemed human sinners.

And Michael is just one angel.

Is Michael the angel a "they" ?

Is Michael the angel one of our "brothers" ? Verse 10 says

"the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night."

Everything said about Michael standing up in the last days Daniel the prophet can still be true and the man-child be a collective, corporate "they".

The rejoicing of verse 10 should mean the final overcoming of HUMAN saints rather that the final overcoming of sinless angels. C'mon.

The kingdom come when the angels finally get it together??
Or the kingdom comes when at least a significnat remnant of forgiven human sinners make FULL usage of Christ's redemption to SHUT the mouth of the slandering Satan?

Does Satan spend his time accusing angels to God or human believers?
Come on Oseas! Satan spends his time to accusing Michael and good angels.
He spends day and night tattling and slandering redeemed PEOPLE in the
church of how bad they are.

Osaes, I am sure that the "brothers" in verse 10 who are the "they" who overcome the accuser are human believers from the entire body of Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

Michael is not the man-child in Revelation 12, but Jesus is, who was born to Israel, the woman in Revelation 12.

Jesus, as you must know, has to be impatred and dispensed into His people.
Jesus has to be imparted and implanted into His redeemed people.

This imparting of Jesus into His people makes THEM overcomers. The O ne IN THEM is the uniques overcoming Person and life.
So when when people of Jesus get filled up with Jesus they become more than conquerors - overcomers.

When a critical mass of

1.) Living believers reach this maturity, and
2.) A critical mass of those having died have reached this maturity-

The man-child will be caught up from the total Body of God believers living and from times past to be raptured
to heaven and God's throne 1,260 days (at least) before the end of this age.

The "brothers" who are happy because the kingdom has come in Revelation 12:10 should not be brother angels but
brother redeemed humans.

The "them" which refers to these "our brothers" has to be a collective or the plural pronouns have NO OTHER REFERRANT
in the chapter.

So Yes - the man-child is the victorious Jesus. But it is the victorious Jesus who has spread into the beings of some
mature human redeemed ones. This constitutes them as a corporate overcoming Jesus army in oneness.
Their existence SHUTS the mouth of the slanderer Satan who constantly blames God's people to God as being
defeated, immature, and below the standard of victorious salvation that Jesus secured for them.

These raptured ones (if you read carefully Revelation 12,13) are the CAUSE of Satan desperately unleashing
all that he has to make the great tribulation commence.

Now beloveds, isn't that exactly what it SAYS ?

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:12)


Who is to be glad? Those just raptured to heaven as to be glad.
Who is to be in woe? Those still on the earth are to be in woe.

The rapture of the collective victorious overcomers is the CAUSE for the serving angels to drive Satan down for good.
And the raptured ones rejoice that the kingdom HAS COME- internally in thier beings.
And only a short time now isl left for this accuser and enemy of God to do his worst on earth.

THAT ia the great tribulation.

Rapture of a remnant overcoming Jesus infused "man-child" from the total Body of human saints is therefore
the real cause of the commencement of the great triubulation.

Having said that - of course - the prophetic promise of God is also the cause.

 

[Douggg]

JESUS was not saying to John through Michael that He was born in Bethlehem.

The angel in Revelation 1:1 is Jesus Himself, made known to the souls of men by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the highest messenger of God.

Revelation 22:
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Thessalonains4:15-18
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The woman is not Israel, absolutely, no, she is not Israel, but the Church of the Lord, the body of Christ.

The Church did not give birth to the man-child - Jesus. It is the reverse, Jesus started the Church. Matthew 16:16-18. Based on what Peter said.

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

-------------------------------------

Also, Oseas, in your post #24, you wrote....

"No, the man child is NOT Jesus, but Michael."

So are you claiming the church gave birth to Michael ?

 

[Douggg]

The man-child will be caught up from the total Body of God believers living and from times past to be raptured
to heaven and God's throne 1,260 days (at least) before the end of this age.

The church did not give birth to Jesus. It is the reverse. Jesus built the church.

 

[Douggg]

These raptured ones (if you read carefully Revelation 12,13) are the CAUSE of Satan desperately unleashing
all that he has to make the great tribulation commence.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount (Matthew 24:15-21). Not because of Satan's desperation.

When will the abomination of desolation setup be ? According to Daniel 12:12, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

Will Satan be cast down to earth 1335 days before Jesus returns ? No, Satan's desperation begins when will be cast down to earth, with a time/times/half time left. The great tribulation will have already started.

Though Satan cast down to earth having great wrath will make the great tribulation worse, of course.

 

[Oseas]

If the man-child is not a group of saints out from the total body of God's saints, than tell us WHO is being referred to by the plural pronouns "they" "them" and "their" in verse 11?

First, man-child is a singular term, denoting or referring to just one person, not to a group of persons. The answer of your question is in Revelation 22:9 written after around 60 years of JESUS ascension: Michael is a fellowservant of John's brethren(these are the disciples of JESUS, brothers of John in Christ), the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of the book of Apocalypse, the last book of the New Testament established by Christ JESUS: Michael said to John: worship GOD.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Does Muchael the arch-angel need "the blood of the Lamb" for his sins?
I thought the good angels are sinless unlike the redeemed human sinners.

You are saying that. You need to meditate more deeply in the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand? The Scriptures you are mentioning has nothing to do with sins, but with a TERRIBLE WAR against the Devil and his hosts of messengers.

The War is against three UNCLEAN spirits like frogs which come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast of sea, and out of the mouth of the false prophet(extensive to the false preachers of the Word of GOD, even ministers of Satan-2Corinthians 11:13-15).
And They triumphed over the Dragon and his mesengers/ they CONQUERED a victory over the Dragon, BY THE BLOOD of the Lamb(not because of the blood, as you wrote), and BY the Word of their testimony, that is the testimony of Christ, understand? Revelation 19:10. Take a look.

And Michael is just one angel.

Paul Apostle said by the Word of GOD Michael is an archangel-1Thessalonians 4:16, and JESUS introduce Michael to John as being like Him, yes, like the son of man-Revelation 1:12-13. In Matthew 24 JESUS said that the presence of Michael must cause a time of unsurpassed in distress in this current time of the end, yeah, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Furthermore, there will be resurrection with the presence of Michael: Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; Some to everlasting life, others to reproach and everlasting disgrace.

Is Michael the angel a "they" ?

Is Michael the angel one of our "brothers" ? Verse 10 says

"the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night."

Michael is one among "they', of course. Michael is a fellowservant of John's brethren(these are the disciples of JESUS, brothers of John in Christ), the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of the book of Apocalypse, the last book of the New Testament established by Christ JESUS:

Everything said about Michael standing up in the last days Daniel the prophet can still be true and the man-child be a collective, corporate "they".

Man-child is a singular term, denoting or referring to just one person, not to a group of persons. Your interpretation or conception of the Word of GOD is not truer. The Word is GOD, GOD is the Truth.

The rejoicing of verse 10 should mean the final overcoming of HUMAN saints rather that the final overcoming of sinless angels. C'mon.

You need to meditate more deeply in the Word of GOD. C'mon, What matters and prevails about angels, not in theory, but according what JESUS said about them, they that were prior sinners, and now will be made angels : Luke 20:35-36:
35 - They which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world(next world, the Kingdom of GOD), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.
Take a look in the answer that was given to your last sentence below.

The kingdom come when the angels finally get it together??
Or the kingdom comes when at least a significnat remnant of forgiven human sinners make FULL usage of Christ's redemption to SHUT the mouth of the slandering Satan?

Does Satan spend his time accusing angels to God or human believers?
Come on Oseas! Satan spends his time to accusing Michael and good angels.
He spends day and night tattling and slandering redeemed PEOPLE in the
church of how bad they are.

The Kingdom comes when Michael and his angels fight against the Dragon; and the Dragon fight and his angels, and they -Michael and his fellowservant- triumph over the Dragon and his mesengers/ they CONQUER a victory over the Dragon BY THE BLOOD of the Lamb, and BY the Word of their testimony, that is, the testimony of Christ, understand? Revelation 19:10 combined with Re.11:15-18. Take a look.

Osaes, I am sure that the "brothers" in verse 10 who are the "they" who overcome the accuser are human believers from the entire body of Christ.

Right, they all or all those which will be side by side with Michael in the War against the Dragon and his satanic messengers. Revelation 12:7
Are you ready? Will it be? The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy.

 

[Douggg]

Paul Apostle said by the Word of GOD Michael is an archangel-1Thessalonians 4:16,

No. Jesus shouting "Come forth" to them who have died in Christ, and "Come up here" to the living "in Christ", is voice of the archangel.

Jesus's shouting voice is also the trump of God.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Oseas]

The angel in Revelation 1:1 is Jesus Himself, made known to the souls of men by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the highest messenger of God.

Revelation 22:
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Thessalonains4:15-18
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The Church did not give birth to the man-child - Jesus. It is the reverse, Jesus started the Church. Matthew 16:16-18. Based on what Peter said.

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

-------------------------------------

What? You are saying that my Lord JESUS is angel? Your devilish opinion is good for nothing, what you wrote is doctrine of the demons you have learned from the followers of the Dragon and are preaching here as they they preach. As I already have prior said, you know not JESUS, neither Michael.
My Lord JESUS is GOD, not an angel, understand? He is the Word made flesh, understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing/ executable, and He was made flesh around 2000 years ago, and chose for Himself the name of JESUS.

All people here know(except you) that Revelation 1:1 says: - The Revelation of JESUS Christ, which GOD (the Father) gave unto Him(around 60 years after His ascension), to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and JESUS sent and signified it BY His ANGEL unto His servant John(not by He Himself as is being said by the spirit of Genesis 3:1. Your devilish opinion is good for nothing, your are a sower of tares)

You just wrote in you reply: Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And you came here to say my Lord JESUS is the angel He own have sent to testify of these things of Apocalypse in the churches??? What you say is doctrine of demons you have learned from the followers of the Dragon and are preaching and sowing tares as such as they do. As I already have prior said, you know not JESUS, neither Michael.

My Lord JESUS said: Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth-Matthew 25:29-30.

Also, Oseas, in your post #24, you wrote....

"No, the man child is NOT Jesus, but Michael."

So are you claiming the church gave birth to Michael ?

That is what GOD the Father gave unto my Lord JESUS to shew unto His servants. By your own words, JESUS did not show this unto you, so your interpretations are a stumbling block, and according Genesis 3.1.