SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

[rjs330]

How about from medical professionals?

Whats thier cogent answer then? And what is it based on.

 

[rjs330]

.

Don't know what that has to do with the pressures to keep quiet. Oh you mean the biased people trying to shut everyone else up.

 

[RileyG]

Whats thier cogent answer then? And what is it based on.

Furthermore, what about doctors who oppose transgender surgery, especially for minors? Are they suddenly biased because they do not agree with everything the LGBT-alphabet soup teaches?

 

[rjs330]

I don't have to prove anything of the kind.

Of course you do if you make that claim. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. You might want to start by proving gender exists.

He has to exhibit spontaneous emotional and behavioral traits which we ordinarily associate with females.

Everyone who does that us trans? What are those emotions and traits?

 

[BCP1928]

Of course you do if you make that claim. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. You might want to start by proving gender exists.

Everyone who does that us trans? What are those emotions and traits?

I gave you one example, surely you have some of your own. To your mind, what makes a really "masculine" male? A really "feminine" female?

 

[Belk]

I never stated that. Rather, some parents, emphasis on some, can manipulate their children.

Which we allow. For example we do not interfere with religious indoctrination nor do we outlaw the "cosmetic surgery" for religious reasons.

If he wants to call his *daughter a he, that’s his choice.

I cannot and will not accept transgender ideology. I have my own convictions.

What, exactly, do you imagine "transgender ideology" to be?

I respect your right to disagree.

It’s all good.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That is a daring rhetorical move on your part so I will allow you the courtesy of listing them for yourself. I'll give you one: a disinclination to engage in contact sports.

I didn't play contact sports. I played soccer, track, swimming, etc.

Does that mean I'm a girl?

 

[rturner76]

Once again I point out, and please don't dismiss this, this time, that gender and sex ARE the same thing to these people.
Why do you keep missing this?

1) Because it isn't the same and 2) Because you don't really know what all transgender people think do you? I sure don't.

 

[rturner76]

The fact that you said you find it hard to believe that not one doctor knows is an indication that you continue to ignore the information provided to you.

You have provided me with your opinion and the opinion of a advocacy group but I haven't seen many facts.

As far a specialists are concerned it is a fact that many specialists are trained by groups such as WPATH. They are given one way to do something which is Afdirmative care.

Did WPATH get a law passed that requires doctors to follow their recommendations? That would be news to me. I'm sure you know there is a difference between an individual doctor or institution and an advocacy group correct?

That's it. They are not trained in any other methods for dealing with this issue. Affirmative Care does not ever question anything about the patient and their condition.

No doctor has been trained in any other methods other than the recommendations of WPATH? Am I misunderstanding you here? People were having sex changes since pictures were only black and white. I think at least one thing has been learned between now and when this group made their recommendations and again, no doctor is required to follow their recommendations.

Real therapy goes far beyond that.

I have been saying this all along. Real therapy by a specialist any time someone is seeking gender reassignment.

Yes there are. Educate yourself.

I think you're confused and frankly I don't think you have done your research other than reading some opinion pieces by people who are against the whole concept.

Change gender from what to what?

man to woman or woman to man. This is simple stuff

 

[rturner76]

No...there's a checklist of symptoms and behaviors that we can use to generally determine that.

It's not the same for gender dysphoria?

If however you were to go to the doctor and say "I think my gender is man/woman/something else"....there's no checklist. It doesn't actually matter if you dress up as a man but say you're a woman...or dress up as a woman but say you are a man, etc. There's literally no requirement of behaviors or symptoms for a gender identity.

If there is no checklist, wouldn't be appropriate for specialists to make an evaluation. I'm not sure what you know about mental health but there is a requirement of insurance paying for your treatment that they meet certain criteria. Whether it's done with checkboxes or Q&A, they need to be able to show why a medication or procedure would be the form of treatment that does the least amount damage and will be the most effective. I get the impression that people can just get their gender changed like they're ordering a happy meal.

If we're going off revelation and not evidence then you can understand why I call this a faith based belief and it appears to be cultish to people.

Is it a faith-based belief when a chemist comes up with a new formula that they think will work or do they use any kind of data based on what they have learned about the drug while creating it? Are things like case history relevant when seeking an improvement on what is currently being done before they begin to try it in their practice.

When you think about it, there's going to be a ton of conditions and issues where we can hand someone a drug, tell their friends and family to be super supportive and positive towards them, tell them the drug will fix their problem, and they'll respond by thinking they feel better. After all, they are now getting a lot of support and help for whatever the problem is...

Of course, it may not feel that way for long....so they will seek out the next step and go from puberty blockers to hormones, new pronouns, etc. They're just chasing the feeling of progress and care from others regarding their problem.

There's an endpoint to this of course, when family and friends have their own lives to deal with...and the patient will need to be ok with themselves (and almost certainly by themselves).

I'm pretty sure that the Western philosophy concerning medical treatment is if they don't have a cure, they provide the most advanced treatment possible.

Well the nations I'm talking about were doing what we are doing now...except they had nationalized healthcare programs. They also followed the Affirmative Care Model...except more quickly because of their government paid healthcare. They found the problems faster than we will...and that's assuming we find them at all. It would require thousands of people making the government actually care about the many negative outcomes that we know are being kept quiet by the media and government. It gets downplayed as a rare event that we don’t have to worry about while trans activists literally harass these victims into silence.

We all knew oxycontin was a highly addictive opioid that destroyed lives for nearly a decade before the government did anything about it. Why? Because the government doesn't run the healthcare system....they don't have to worry about outcomes....and pharmaceutical companies rake in massive profits.

So, they send people through years of therapy, support groups, mental health condition prescribers, specialists and whatnot to make a buck? My clinic told me that Medicare for example pays only 15% on anything they are billed for. I don't think that's the easiest way to make a buck off the government.

I don't think the exact words were pseudoscientific quackery. It's more like...

A systematic meta-analysis of all available data has shown that all available research on the Affirmative Care model, puberty blockers, HRT, and transitioning for trans youth to be of extremely low quality and extremely low confidence in the positive outcomes of these treatment while simultaneously underestimating the negative effects of these treatments. This quality of research is far below the basic national standards for the medical treatment of children and should cease immediately.

In my mind...the easy way to describe that....is pseudoscientific quackery.

It's a complex affliction with no two cases being exactly the same. You're one size fits all approach is just not appropriate for a situation like questioning gender.

I know all about informed decisions. My wife had brain surgery. We met with the surgeon. He starts going over the whole spiel...everything that can go wrong from long term issues, personality changes, death, etc. It's a long scary list. We aren't halfway through it and I can tell my wife is terrified. By the end when he has her signing waivers, I ask him...

I know you can't give me any guarantees, you can't promise us nothing will go wrong, but hypothetically...if we were talking about some other case just like hers...what do you think the chances are you would get this surgery right without any problems?

He looks me dead in the eye and says "maybe 1000/1. I've done this hundreds of times more than anyone else I know, I can't remember the last time I had any issues before or after surgery".

I knew I had the right guy for the job then...and that's the degree of "knowledgeable" most people get regarding their healthcare in this country. I get what you're saying about the need for people to be as knowledgeable as possible regarding something this important. They should also be knowledgeable about their car loans/safety/reliability. They should be knowledgeable about their mortgages, whether or not they are good or trash or something in-between. They should be knowledgeable about their diets, the food they consume and how it affects their health personally. They should know everything about their firearm, how to operate it safely, how to shoot it accurately, and every law regarding its use, carry, and ownership.

People should be walking encyclopedias about a whole range of things that affect them or their children but frankly....they aren't. They typically rely heavily on experts. They rely on the mechanics who tell them what needs fixed and when. They rely on their bank who profits from the mortgage they are paying off. They rely on the latest diet fad regarding their food. They rely on the guy on the TV telling them this new type of vaccine that only took a year to make is not only safe but effective.

People should be experts in this stuff...but they won't be. They simply will do what they already do....trust the doctor who quite literally depends upon their business to pay his bills. He'll tell them that the puberty blockers are just going to give their child "time to sort out their feelings" and if they change their minds....no harm done. Does he tell them it will stunt their physical development permanently? Probably not. Does he tell them that a study just came out showing any prolonged use will almost certainly leave your child permanently sterilized? Unlikely. Does he even tell them that over 90% of children who go on puberty blockers end up progressing to cross sex hormones? If he did that...you might wonder why bother with the puberty blockers at all? They're basically a guaranteed pathway to the hormones....is it because we're trying to stunt development? Are they just trying to squeeze every last dollar out of these clients?

These would be good questions to ask. Most parents aren't asking though.

I am truly sorry that your wife is suffering and likely you along with her.

Gender questioning has a different approach though. You guys have a specific goal which is to prepare for this surgery, get it done and start aftercare. They have to do copious gender related psychotherapy and be evaluated along the way until they figure out what the right treatments are. If a physical ends up being appropriate, it doesn't end there. They remain in counseling a long time before and after that point

Are you under the impression that people are getting sex changes? Why would you need to change your sex if gender and sex are unrelated?

You said that to me....remember? I said I wasn't very confident in this idea of gender being a real thing....you replied that sex was this biological fact, and gender was something else....a psychological thing unrelated to sex.

Yet here you are....suggesting that we alter someone's sex to fit their gender....as if these things are not only related to each other, they're so deeply connected that we can't really talk about gender without talking about biological sex.

Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that all those gender activists....all those people supporting this....they all insisted over and over again that biological sex and gender are completely unrelated concepts.

I didn't think you would be on the political correctness bandwagon. Let me be clear. The surgery until now I'm reminded, was always called a "sex change). Not so much because you are changing your chromosomes to be that of the opposite sex but because you are changing sex organs. Now I think they call it "gender reassignment surgery." Apologies if I sause any offense, t was just easier to type sex change. Maybe some FEEL they are unrelated (most likely an activist, this seems to be where most of your information is coming from on this one. More people would say they are not unrelated but they are not the same

On an earlier post. Do you really think that there is no way to evaluate what someone's relationship and/or thoughts are about gender? You are welcome to your opinion but I think it's a bit extreme to take such a hard line on the subject of there being no way to treat these people or doctors and specialists can do nothing for them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's not the same for gender dysphoria?

Do you think a trans person has to experience "dysphoria" to receive any treatment?

If there is no checklist, wouldn't be appropriate for specialists to make an evaluation.

There's a bit of a notorious recording of Boston's Children's Hospital agreeing to make an appointment to remove the breasts of a 14yo girl sight unseen. Of course, the hospital fired the person who made the appointment and swears that they didn't follow proper procedure but it seems really unlikely that's the case.

I'm not sure what you know about mental health but there is a requirement of insurance paying for your treatment that they meet certain criteria.

We're talking about a post-Obamacare Era where...

1. Trans medicine is covered.
2. Pre existing conditions are covered.

Is it a faith-based belief when a chemist comes up with a new formula that they think will work or do they use any kind of data based on what they have learned about the drug while creating it?

You're talking about evidence now....

What evidence is there for the concept of a "gender identity"?

I'm pretty sure that the Western philosophy concerning medical treatment is if they don't have a cure, they provide the most advanced treatment possible.

In Canada they offer you assisted suicide....sometimes for curable or treatable conditions.

You really are overestimating modern medicine here.

What is the Tavistock clinic scandal? | Slater + Gordon

Our experts discuss the NHS Tavistock gender identity clinic facing legal action after worrying reports of potential negligence.

www.slatergordon.co.uk

This is what happened in the UK.

• The clinic’s approach was not a safe or viable long term option​
• The service was struggling to handle growing waiting lists​
• Not keeping “routine and consistent” patient data​
• Patients who had other healthcare issues, like neurodiversity or mental health issues, had them overlooked during their treatment​
• Staff felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach"​

Does that sound like "years of therapy" to you? Do you understand we are operating under the same model of care?

So, they send people through years of therapy, support groups, mental health condition prescribers, specialists and whatnot to make a buck?

That's not what was happening. Years of therapy and support groups and the rest is your imagination.

It's a complex affliction with no two cases being exactly the same. You're one size fits all approach is just not appropriate for a situation like questioning gender.

The Affirmative Care model is the standard model. It's not the "questioning gender" model.

I am truly sorry that your wife is suffering and likely you along with her.

Don't be, it was long ago.

Gender questioning has a different approach though. You guys have a specific goal which is to prepare for this surgery, get it done and start aftercare. They have to do copious gender related psychotherapy and be evaluated along the way until they figure out what the right treatments are. If a physical ends up being appropriate, it doesn't end there. They remain in counseling a long time before and after that point

Why do you think this is happening?

Because there's tons of stories of people getting pills in 1-2 visits to a clinic. There's no stories of anyone doing "copious amounts of psychotherapy" prior to getting pills.

That may have been the model long long ago....but it's very fast now. Why would a trans person need "psychotherapy" if being trans isn't a mental illness?

Again....you need to explain what it is you think for us to continue because you keep talking about "years of psychotherapy" and the rest....

Being transgender isn't considered a mental illness. Do you understand that?

If you do...why do you think it would take all this therapy and psychological testing for them to get puberty blockers or hormones?

 

[BCP1928]

I didn't play contact sports. I played soccer, track, swimming, etc.

Does that mean I'm a girl?

Did you volunteer for them? Did you enjoy them?

 

[rjs330]

I gave you one example, surely you have some of your own. To your mind, what makes a really "masculine" male? A really "feminine" female?

Just answer the questions. You gave an example, but you avoided the question. If someone has those traits are they trans? And what traits and emotions are you referring to? I'm going to ask you another question. What traits and emotions would female have to have in order to be trans?

I'm really wondering if you can even answer those questions. I'll be happy to answer yours if you answer mine first.

 

[rjs330]

I didn't play contact sports. I played soccer, track, swimming, etc.

Does that mean I'm a girl?

What about those girls that do participate in contact sports, like MMA? Are they trans then?

 

[rjs330]

1) Because it isn't the same and 2) Because you don't really know what all transgender people think do you? I sure don't.

Your statements are clear evidence that this whole gender ideology is a mess and bears no resemblance to anything in reality. It's a nebulous thing that has no meaning. You say it isn't the same and they would say it's not the same. But in PRACTICE it is the same and in thier belief it is the same. I've given you clear unambiguous examples of that. And if transgender people aren't even consistent how on earth are you so sure?

 

[rjs330]

You have provided me with your opinion and the opinion of a advocacy group but I haven't seen many facts.

What advocacy group? You mean all of Europe? The advocy groups are all your side of the fence.

Did WPATH get a law passed that requires doctors to follow their recommendations? That would be news to me. I'm sure you know there is a difference between an individual doctor or institution and an advocacy group correct?

Where did those doctors that followed the Affirmative Care plan get their information from? Who were the experts that they used in order to get trained?
In an attempt to standardize care in response to this study’s accusations, the Henry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, now better known as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), created the first version of Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People. Now in its seventh iteration, the WPATH Standards of Care provide guidance on everything from hormone therapy to surgical interventions and everything in between.

That's why all these doctors you talk about use the Standards of Care from WPATH. Affirmative Care. But you seem to have real desire to ignore all of this. I'd really like to know why. Do you think all the Affirmative Care doctors are just making it up as they go along? Each one doing thier own thing? Where are they getting thier Care Standards. Well I think it's pretty clear. Don't you?

have been saying this all along. Real therapy by a specialist any time someone is seeking gender reassignment.

That's baloney and you know it. Do you you honestly think a single session between a doctor and a child before being medicalized is real therapy? I mean the majority of these doctors aren't even therapists. In fact WPATH changed thier Standards of Care to say therapy is no longer necessary. Does that sound like real therapy to you?

think you're confused and frankly I don't think you have done your research other than reading some opinion pieces by people who are against the whole concept.

It's pretty obvious here who hasn't done the research. And it's not me.

man to woman or woman to man. This is simple stuff

That's sex. Yes simple stuff.

 

[rjs330]

You have provided me with your opinion and the opinion of a advocacy group but I haven't seen many facts.

What advocacy group? You mean all of Europe? The advocy groups are all your side of the fence.

Did WPATH get a law passed that requires doctors to follow their recommendations? That would be news to me. I'm sure you know there is a difference between an individual doctor or institution and an advocacy group correct?

Where did those doctors that followed the Affirmative Care plan get their information from? Who were the experts that they used in order to get trained?
In an attempt to standardize care in response to this study’s accusations, the Henry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, now better known as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), created the first version of Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People. Now in its seventh iteration, the WPATH Standards of Care provide guidance on everything from hormone therapy to surgical interventions and everything in between.

That's why all these doctors you talk about use the Standards of Care from WPATH. Affirmative Care. But you seem to have real desire to ignore all of this. I'd really like to know why. Do you think all the Affirmative Care doctors are just making it up as they go along? Each one doing thier own thing? Where are they getting thier Care Standards. Well I think it's pretty clear. Don't you?

have been saying this all along. Real therapy by a specialist any time someone is seeking gender reassignment.

That's baloney and you know it. Do you you honestly think a single session between a doctor and a child before being medicalized is real therapy? I mean the majority of these doctors aren't even therapists. In fact WPATH changed thier Standards of Care to say therapy is no longer necessary. Does that sound like real therapy to you?

think you're confused and frankly I don't think you have done your research other than reading some opinion pieces by people who are against the whole concept.

It's pretty obvious here who hasn't done the research. And it's not me.

man to woman or woman to man. This is simple stuff

That's sex. Yes simple stuff

 

[rjs330]

They have to do copious gender related psychotherapy and be evaluated along the way until they figure out what the right treatments are. If a physical ends up being appropriate, it doesn't end there. They remain in counseling a long time before and after that point

You really think this is happening? You know the Standards of Care don't require this. Doctors are able to medicalize kids without therapy therapy. Here's a child who was transitioned after 72 minutes. That's less that two sessions.

Child transitioned at 12, sues doctors, hospitals over irreversible early age transition

Here's another.

Woman who transitioned to male at 16 during ‘chaotic time’ sues doctors who gave her double mastectomy

55 minutes is all it took. You are obviously not well researched. I know all about the pros and cons regarding transing kids. I very actually read some of the research and spent a lot of time reading stuff on this subject. The internet is repeat with articles that laud how great transing the kids is.

 

[KCfromNC]

I never stated that. Rather, some parents, emphasis on some, can manipulate their children.

Not with surgeries, as demonstrated by the OP's link :

Doctors and parents testified before committees in both the House and Senate that people younger than 18 do not receive gender-transition surgeries in South Carolina​

 

[KCfromNC]

But it's a rigged game. The experts we have discovered are 100% biased.

Who is this "we" you're talking about?

If we are honest with ourselves we would immediately do what Europe has done

Implement single payer health care run by the government? Oh no, wait, this but but but Europe does it argument only applies when it is things that line up with far right talking points.