I have a problem with Paul and his version of events.

[RDKirk]

what about this one.....
1Co 4:15 Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

And you know he was speaking metaphorically, not that he was instructing the Corinthians to call him by that title.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

Here is one direct contradiction that Paul had with the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel:

Jesus says in Matthew 23:9

"And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

But Paul says in 1 Timothy 5:1

"Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father."

This is a direct contradiction against the command of Christ to call no one on earth a father, which is also broken in many Christian traditions.

Thanks very much for sharing, and alerting me as well.

Good of you to take note of Jesus words regarding this.
The question we can ask here, is, was Jesus (A) discouraging persons using father, in reference to fathers who are such biologically, or spiritually, or was he (B) discouraging giving persons titles of prominence and superiority?

Whe we read the context, the answer becomes obvious.
Matthew 23:6-12

6 They love the [b]best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your [c]Teacher, [d]the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be [e]humbled, and he who humbles himself will be [f]exalted.​

Regarding 'teacher', consider please,
Acts 13:1

Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch), and Saul.

James 3:1

Not many of you should be teachers my brothers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

Regarding 'father', please read Matthew 10:35-37; Matthew 15:4-6; Matthew 19:5, 19, 29; John 8:56
What did Jesus men by what he said at Mark 10:29, 30?
Why did Jesus use the expression "my brother and sister and mother" Matthew 12:47-50?
Why did Paul use the expression "brothers and fathers, at Acts 22:1?
Why did James refer to Abraham as "our father", at James 2:21?
What about John... If Paul contradicted Jesus, would that not mean that John also contradict Jesus?
1 John 2:12-14

12 I write to you, little children,​

Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.​

13 I write to you, fathers,​

Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.​

I write to you, young men,​

Because you have overcome the wicked one.​

I write to you, little children,​

Because you have known the Father.​

14 I have written to you, fathers,​

Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.​

I have written to you, young men,​

Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,​

And you have overcome the wicked one.​

Why did they uses these expression, "brother", "fathers", "sisters", "mothers", "children"?

After considering the scriptures, and answering the questions, how would you answer the question was Jesus (A) discouraging persons using father, in reference to fathers who are such biologically, or spiritually, or was he (B) discouraging giving persons titles of prominence and superiority?
Was Paul doing A, or B?

Please feel free to mention any other texts of Paul, you think are contradicting Jesus. thank you.

 

[CoreyD]

what about this one.....
1Co 4:15 Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

He wasn't the only father.
There were many fathers in the body of Christ. Also, many children, brothers, and mothers.
Please consider my most recent post to @Laeomis.

 

[Laeomis]

"...As if he were your father" is not instruction to call anyone "Father." Christ had not obliterated the existence of natural fathers, nor was Christ abolishing the commandment to honor one's father and mother.

Yes, he actually did. This is evident in Matthew 10:34-35

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

​

This also answers your question @CoreyD

Jesus also denounces Mary, his birth mother, in Mark 3:34-35. He denounces her and his brothers and says that everyone who does the will of God is his mother, brother, and sister. Interestingly, he leaves father out of this. This is because Christ did not have a biological father, Joseph was not his father God was, and to be like Jesus we must also deny earthly fathers.

When Christ denied Mary he was breaking the Ten Commandments. He was angry at his mother and brothers because in Mark 3:21 he was being accused of being insane by them. The teachers of the law were accusing him of being possessed by Beezlebub. Jesus fulfilled the law and he did die the death which is the penalty of that commandment Matthew 15:4 when he was crucified.

 

[Mr. M]

I have a problem with Paul and his version of events.

What we know of Saul/Paul, comes from Paul. Christians today accepts his version of events, and make this person of small (Acts 9 commentary) stature (Paulus) a Giant in the religion he has invented, Pauline Christianity we have today. My issue with Paul is his disinformation, according to the ancient authors--Christian, Jewish, and Pagan. According to St. Jerome (347-420), there was a tradition among Christians in the Holy Land that Paul's parents were immigrants to Tarsus from the Judean (Galilean) city of Gischala: “they say that the parents of the apostle Paul were from Gischala, a region of Judea* and that, when the whole province was devastated by the hand of Rome and the Jews scattered throughout the world, they were moved to Tarsus a town of Cilicia; the boy Paul inherited the lot of his parents” **(St. Jerome, Commentary on Philemon, vs. 23-24). Yet, Paul claims that he is from the tribe of Benjamin, and he like his father before him are Pharisees. See Acts 23:6.

Sue for Jero.

*Jerome was first and foremost a religious author. However, geography was not his best subject, he mistook Galilee of the Gentiles/Galilee of the Nations, as being in Judea.

**Translated: by Thomas P. Scheck (2010), St Jerome’s commentaries on Galatians, Titus, and Philemon, pp. 378/9, University of Notre Dame Press, Indiana.

Acts was written by Luke, a meticulous Greek scholar who also wrote a well researched Gospel, without which we would be lacking many detailed narratives not found in the other Gospels. I would prefer his account over any other as a theophilus.

 

[Lukaris]

Matthew 19:16-19, the Lord said for us to honor our parents. Loving Jesus Christ over anyone else is the Lord affirming His divinity. Everyone is called to love God first before everyone else ( Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Matthew 22:36-40 etc).

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, he actually did. This is evident in Matthew 10:34-35

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

​

This also answers your question @CoreyD

No, it doesn't answer the two questions I posed.
However, you are saying that Jesus contradicted his father, and himself? Matthew 15:4-6; Matthew 19:5, 19

Jesus also denounces Mary, his birth mother, in Mark 3:34-35. He denounces her and his brothers and says that everyone who does the will of God is his mother, brother, and sister. Interestingly, he leaves father out of this. This is because Christ did not have a biological father, Joseph was not his father God was, and to be like Jesus we must also deny earthly fathers.

I've never heard this before.
May I ask... Do you tell your relatives these things?
Is this something you heard preached, or are there persons you fellowship with, that have this opinion?

When Christ denied Mary he was breaking the Ten Commandments. He was angry at his mother and brothers because in Mark 3:21 he was being accused of being insane by them. The teachers of the law were accusing him of being possessed by Beezlebub. Jesus fulfilled the law and he did die the death which is the penalty of that commandment Matthew 15:4 when he was crucified.

Where did you get the idea from, that Jesus was angry at his mother and brothers because in Mark 3:21 he was being accused of being insane by them, may I ask?
Do you share these thoughts with relatives and friends? What's their general response, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

And you know he was speaking metaphorically, not that he was instructing the Corinthians to call him by that title.

Why in so many churches denominations are the priests expecting people to call them father or in the case of the pope Holy father?

 

[The Liturgist]

ADMIN HAT ON

It is probably a good time to remind everyone of the following SITE WIDE rule:

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

ADMIN HAT OFF

Thank you for that Steve! I was literally reaching for the report button when I saw your post.

 

[The Liturgist]

And you know he was speaking metaphorically, not that he was instructing the Corinthians to call him by that title.

Actually I believe we can assert with certainty that it was not St. Paul, but rather our Lord, who was speaking metaphorically, since otherwise we would not be able to refer to our own fathers as such. The idea that our Lord actually meant to prohibit calling people father is absurd, which is why the vast majority of Christians, including the three largest denominations (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican) as well as several other ancient denominations such as the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East, refer to their clergy as Father, and they are right to do so, in my view.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks very much for sharing, and alerting me as well.

Good of you to take note of Jesus words regarding this.
The question we can ask here, is, was Jesus (A) discouraging persons using father, in reference to fathers who are such biologically, or spiritually, or was he (B) discouraging giving persons titles of prominence and superiority?

Whe we read the context, the answer becomes obvious.
Matthew 23:6-12

6 They love the [b]best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your [c]Teacher, [d]the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be [e]humbled, and he who humbles himself will be [f]exalted.​

Regarding 'teacher', consider please,
Acts 13:1


James 3:1


Regarding 'father', please read Matthew 10:35-37; Matthew 15:4-6; Matthew 19:5, 19, 29; John 8:56
What did Jesus men by what he said at Mark 10:29, 30?
Why did Jesus use the expression "my brother and sister and mother" Matthew 12:47-50?
Why did Paul use the expression "brothers and fathers, at Acts 22:1?
Why did James refer to Abraham as "our father", at James 2:21?
What about John... If Paul contradicted Jesus, would that not mean that John also contradict Jesus?
1 John 2:12-14

12 I write to you, little children,​

Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.​

13 I write to you, fathers,​

Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.​

I write to you, young men,​

Because you have overcome the wicked one.​

I write to you, little children,​

Because you have known the Father.​

14 I have written to you, fathers,​

Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.​

I have written to you, young men,​

Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,​

And you have overcome the wicked one.​

Why did they uses these expression, "brother", "fathers", "sisters", "mothers", "children"?

After considering the scriptures, and answering the questions, how would you answer the question was Jesus (A) discouraging persons using father, in reference to fathers who are such biologically, or spiritually, or was he (B) discouraging giving persons titles of prominence and superiority?
Was Paul doing A, or B?

Please feel free to mention any other texts of Paul, you think are contradicting Jesus. thank you.

What our Lord was doing was discouraging people from presuming prominence and superiority, by using a figurative rhetorical device. @prodromos and @dzheremi have addressed this, if I recall.

 

[CoreyD]

Why in so many churches denominations are the priests expecting people to call them father or in the case of the pope Holy father?

This is a good question JFF. Thank you for asking.
It is a question I would like to ask also, since my understanding of Matthew 23:6-12, is that Jesus condemned using giving, or having these titles Father, Teacher, and that would include Holy Father... Most Holy Father... Right Reverend... Right Honorable Reverend... His Excellence Archbishop.

From those verses, the reader should understand that using "Father", "Teacher"... as a title is condemned by Jesus, because it draws attention to the person as being a prominent and distinguished individual with a superior role.
Perhaps @The Liturgist will answer this for us, since their view supports the clergy.

I want to point out that the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees, were taking on these titles - Rabbi (Teacher). These were also called "the Leaders of the Church".
Jesus condemned this, and added that the condemnation includes giving the title Father, to individuals.

This was not the case with Paul. No one called Paul 'Father', and no one called Paul 'Teacher', as they did Jesus.
The apostles refered to older men as fathers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, and younger men as children, because they were a united spiritual family.
1 Timothy 5:1, 2

1 Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father; younger men as brothers;
2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

3 John1:4

4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.

Regarding the above verse, I'll like to ask you a question.
I asked @Laeomis - my potential brother in the faith, a question I was hoping he would address, but I am sorry he did not answer. I am not offended buddy, and I am not annoyed at either of you.
I really appreciate hearing from both of you, and hope that you will continue to present your arguments, and those contradictions you find.
You have things on your mind, which everyone don't agree with, but that is not a reason to not voice them. People may get angry, but if we don't expect that, we probably need to study the Bible more.

Here is the question... and @Laeomis, I'd be happy to hear you, if you don't mind.
John referred to those who had accepted the faith, as his children, so what did he consider himself to be, and what was he, to them... Was he not their father, and did he not refer to himself as such (1 John 2:12-14)? Therefore, would that not put John on equal with Paul, as contradicting Jesus, in your view?

To @The Liturgist, or anyone else who would like to answer, I'll like to ask... Can you please explain what makes the application of Jesus' words to the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees any different from the Clergy of Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican.. and Mormons?
Thanks in advanced.

 

[ViaCrucis]

@CoreyD

Here is one direct contradiction that Paul had with the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel:

Jesus says in Matthew 23:9

"And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

But Paul says in 1 Timothy 5:1

"Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father."

This is a direct contradiction against the command of Christ to call no one on earth a father, which is also broken in many Christian traditions.

Sure, if we just ignore what Jesus is saying and why He is saying it. Funny how it's only modern people who interpret Jesus this way, and it's not at all how the earliest Christians understood Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hawkins]

It's not something self-claimed. Pharisee is a very strict term under strict supervisory. You don't randomly call yourself a Pharisee. You may call yourself a rabbi though. Paul is a strict Pharisee with his teacher representing a whole Pharisaic school of thought. Even more strict is that Paul took commands directly from the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. Only a potential candiate of the Great Sanhedrin, such as a renowned elite Pharisee can do so.

 

[CoreyD]

It's not something self-claimed. Pharisee is a very strict term under strict supervisory. You don't randomly call yourself a Pharisee. You may call yourself a rabbi though. Paul is a strict Pharisee with his teacher representing a whole Pharisaic school of thought. Even more strict is that Paul took commands directly from the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. Only a potential candiate of the Great Sanhedrin, such as a renowned elite Pharisee can do so.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.
Paul was a Pharisee. He could indeed call himself a Pharisee, if he chose to, and not be lying, in the same way the apostles can call themselves Jews, and not be lying, even though they are no longer Jews.

One would have to be feeding on meat, in order to understand that.
Paul said, "They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee." Acts 26:5

On a spiritual plane, Paul is a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), although he is no longer.
Philippians 3:5

circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;

Paul is not under law - the Mosaic Law - Romans 6:14, 15. Though under the law of Christ - 1 Corinthians 9:21
The life as a Pharisee is behind him.

On a spiritual plane, the body of Christ are not Jews, or Gentiles Galatians 3:26-28. They are Jews on the inside. Romans 2:29; Romans 9:6

Jesus said the little girl did not die. Luke 8:52
On a spiritual plane, she did not. Looking at it physically, she did.
On a spiritual plane, we get it. I hope.

 

[CoreyD]

What our Lord was doing was discouraging people from presuming prominence and superiority, by using a figurative rhetorical device. @prodromos and @dzheremi have addressed this, if I recall.

According to the catholic website Catholic Faith, Beliefs, & Prayers | Catholic Answers
Why Do Catholics Call the Pope the “Holy Father”?
Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

This takes it another level.
Is there not one head of the holy people - the Saints - the body of Christ?

 

[hislegacy]

I have a problem with Paul and his version of events.

What we know of Saul/Paul, comes from Paul. Christians today accepts his version of events, and make this person of small (Acts 9 commentary) stature (Paulus) a Giant in the religion he has invented, Pauline Christianity we have today. My issue with Paul is his disinformation, according to the ancient authors--Christian, Jewish, and Pagan. According to St. Jerome (347-420), there was a tradition among Christians in the Holy Land that Paul's parents were immigrants to Tarsus from the Judean (Galilean) city of Gischala: “they say that the parents of the apostle Paul were from Gischala, a region of Judea* and that, when the whole province was devastated by the hand of Rome and the Jews scattered throughout the world, they were moved to Tarsus a town of Cilicia; the boy Paul inherited the lot of his parents” **(St. Jerome, Commentary on Philemon, vs. 23-24). Yet, Paul claims that he is from the tribe of Benjamin, and he like his father before him are Pharisees. See Acts 23:6.

Sue for Jero.

*Jerome was first and foremost a religious author. However, geography was not his best subject, he mistook Galilee of the Gentiles/Galilee of the Nations, as being in Judea.

**Translated: by Thomas P. Scheck (2010), St Jerome’s commentaries on Galatians, Titus, and Philemon, pp. 378/9, University of Notre Dame Press, Indiana.

Sounds more like you have a problem with the extra biblical writings from hundreds of years after Paul.

Paul's writings are Divinely inspired - the others are not.

 

[The Liturgist]

According to the catholic website Catholic Faith, Beliefs, & Prayers | Catholic Answers
Why Do Catholics Call the Pope the “Holy Father”?
Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

This takes it another level.
Is there not one head of the holy people - the Saints - the body of Christ?

I am not defending Roman Catholic practices, other than referring to priests as Father, since almost all liturgical churches, including all Orthodox churches and the Anglicans, do that.

 

[CoreyD]

I am not defending Roman Catholic practices, other than referring to priests as Father, since almost all liturgical churches, including all Orthodox churches and the Anglicans, do that.

Pardon me, please. I was not saying you are defending anyone. just that you think the practice is right.
What I am asking, is, did Jesus not condemn the practice?
If the whole lot of them do it, and it's condemned, it still is wrong, isn't it?
In other word, it does not become right because all of them do it. Would you agree?

 

[CoreyD]

Sure, if we just ignore what Jesus is saying and why He is saying it. Funny how it's only modern people who interpret Jesus this way, and it's not at all how the earliest Christians understood Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

If we don't think things through, that can happen to us. That's why I wanted to know if it was something passed on by others.
People know that Jesus forgive the very people that put him to death. He asked God to forgive them, so for one to think that Jesus was angry with his relatives because they simply did not understand, that person really haven't given it enough thought.

Jesus was so patient with his disciples who lacked understanding, and argued repeatedly over things Jesus spoke to them about more than once.

I understand @Laeomis, and Jesus does, more than I do.