Planet Fitness sees $400 MILLION wiped off value just five days after banning member who exposed 'trans woman' shaving in the female locker room

[Bradskii]

In reality men are not women.

And all you are doing now is what you always do. You're not interested in a discussion. You aren't interested in talking about that one off situation. You'd rather not consider the possibility of a relatively straightforward solution. It's a bumper sticker, knee jerk, cut and paste response. Your reply is completely worthless. It's just another copy of any one of the scores that you make, saying exactly the same thing.

Don't expect another response unless you have something useful to contribute.

 

[Estrid]

Good lord...

You've just posted that you agreed that this specific event should not have been handled as it was. You just agreed that a discussion between anyone who was concerned and the staff should have taken place in this specific instance. The result of a discussion like that would have, I might suggest, have resulted in a solution that would have kept everyone happy. What that might have been, I don't know.

I then used that as an example to indicate that problems like this, if and when they arise, need to be dealt with on an individual basis. I even linked to a Newsweek article that listed the slightly different rules for a number of other gyms, indicating that a one-size-fits-all position is frankly nonsensical.

And what do we get in response?

'men do not belong in womens/girls locker rooms.'

Well, they dont.

 

[Bradskii]

If this is what Silva saw when she walked in there....

Then in this specific case, what do you think she should have done?

 

[Estrid]

Then in this specific case, what do you think she should have done?

I'd retreat, complain to management, if
they took no action id leave and never go back

 

[Ceallaigh]

And all you are doing now is what you always do. You're not interested in a discussion. You aren't interested in talking about that one off situation. You'd rather not consider the possibility of a relatively straightforward solution. It's a bumper sticker, knee jerk, cut and paste response. Your reply is completely worthless. It's just another copy of any one of the scores that you make, saying exactly the same thing.

Don't expect another response unless you have something useful to contribute.

The truth is always useful, and the truth is that men are not women and do not belong in women's spaces or sports etc.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'd retreat, complain to management, if
they took no action id leave and never go back

Planet Fitness seems to encourage it, so I'd say women who don't like changing and showering with men shouldn't go there. I'd say women should ask a gym "is this gym stupid enough to allow men in women's locker rooms?" before going there.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Then in this specific case, what do you think she should have done?

Obviously recording people in the bathroom and accusing them of being a "pedo" isn't the right approach...which is why I criticized her actions, at length, earlier. Silva is still ultimately in the wrong here.

But it raises valid questions about how society should handle these types of situations.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about seeing what she saw in the women's facility.

If someone clearly looks nothing like the gender they're identifying with... How is anyone feasibly expected to differentiate?

It would also appear that Silva isn't the first person who thought that the situation was odd enough to document it...

 

[Bradskii]

Obviously recording people in the bathroom and accusing them of being a "pedo" isn't the right approach...which is why I criticized her actions, at length, earlier. Silva is still ultimately in the wrong here.

But it raises valid questions about how society should handle these types of situations.

So I asked you how you might handle this one.

As I said, there is no catch-all remedy for most of the problems in the world. They are rarely black and white so solutions that are simplistic and likewise dichromatic aren't suitable. The trite 'men don't belong in women's changing rooms' is a waste of time as an argument in these cases.

We don't need to get into posting a variety of pictures of people, asking 'So what would you do in this case?' In fact, thinking back quite a few years to the Michael Jackson video 'Black or White', the technology was available back then to morph a video of one person, male or female, into another. So we could have a video of an obviously macho guy morphing into a very femine woman. Say it lasted a minute. At what point does anyone say 'hang on, he'd be ok in the changing room, but...maybe not that guy. Or is it a girl then? Hard to tell. But another 10 seconds and yeah, then it's a girl. I think.'

So we have a single situation. But we have a variety of timelines when you'd say a person shouldn't be there and then, well maybe that's ok, and then definitely not. And it's not just you deciding, it's other people as well. And the situation in one gym will be different to another. And one person might look male but actually be female.

So what's the right thing to do here? Sort out this situation and we'll see where it goes.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Planet Fitness seems to encourage it, so I'd say women who don't like changing and showering with men shouldn't go there. I'd say women should ask a gym "is this gym stupid enough to allow men in women's locker rooms?" before going there.

A gym's policies are absolutely something that you should consider when deciding whether or not to join, though calling them "stupid" for not aligning with your preferences seems pretty juvenile. There are plenty of reasons why someone might not want to patronize Planet Fitness - they attract a very casual crowd, they don't offer heavier weights, it's always crowded, etc. You can just add "allowing people to use the locker room of their preference" to the list. If that policy bothers you, choose a gym that doesn't allow it and move on.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So I asked you how you might handle this one.

As I said, there is no catch-all remedy for most of the problems in the world. They are rarely black and white so solutions that are simplistic and likewise dichromatic aren't suitable. The trite 'men don't belong in women's changing rooms' is a waste of time as an argument in these cases.

To me this is like arguing whether or not you should stop at a red light or a stop sign. Is it okay to roll through if there's absolutely no traffic? No. Even if one is in the middle of nowhere and it's going to be several hours before another car goes through that intersection in any direction, one has to come to a complete stop before proceeding.

We don't need to get into posting a variety of pictures of people, asking 'So what would you do in this case?' In fact, thinking back quite a few years to the Michael Jackson video 'Black or White', the technology was available back then to morph a video of one person, male or female, into another. So we could have a video of an obviously macho guy morphing into a very femine woman. Say it lasted a minute. At what point does anyone say 'hang on, he'd be ok in the changing room, but...maybe not that guy. Or is it a girl then? Hard to tell. But another 10 seconds and yeah, then it's a girl. I think.'

I just watched that video and it was also a white person morphing into a black person and a black person morphing into an Asian person. So if we're going to use that as an example then we have to go along with the idea that people are trans-race as well as trans-sex. And the trans-race idea fits in a lot more with "it doesn't matter if you're black or white".

Really I think the song and video is about Michael Jackson's multiple identity issues. He was torn between being black and wanting to be white, torn between being an adult and wanting to be a child, torn between being masculine and effeminate (the latter being him fantasizing about being Diana Ross at times). Ultimately he lived in a convoluted world of fantasy.

So we have a single situation. But we have a variety of timelines when you'd say a person shouldn't be there and then, well maybe that's ok, and then definitely not. And it's not just you deciding, it's other people as well. And the situation in one gym will be different to another. And one person might look male but actually be female.

So what's the right thing to do here? Sort out this situation and we'll see where it goes.

Like with the one must stop at a red light or stop sign rule, there's always been a men don't go into woman's restrooms and locker rooms rule. I don't remember being specifically taught not to go into the girl's restroom when I was in kindergarten, but I'm pretty sure I knew I wasn't supposed to and I wasn't allowed to. There wasn't a restroom monitor making sure that only girls went into the girl's restroom, the boys just simply knew they were not supposed to or allowed to.

Now can a male disguise himself well enough to go into a female restroom or locker room undetected? Sure. But the rule should remain the same. Just because a rule can be bypassed though disguise or trickery, doesn't mean a rule should be discarded. Just because a rule can't be enforced 100% all of the time, doesn't mean the rule should be discarded. Just because someone can roll through a red light or a stop sign undetected, doesn't mean that rule should be tossed out.

 

[Ceallaigh]

A gym's policies are absolutely something that you should consider when deciding whether or not to join, though calling them "stupid" for not aligning with your preferences seems pretty juvenile.

Are you saying there are no stupid ideas?

There are plenty of reasons why someone might not want to patronize Planet Fitness - they attract a very casual crowd, they don't offer heavier weights, it's always crowded, etc. You can just add "allowing people to use the locker room of their preference" to the list. If that policy bothers you, choose a gym that doesn't allow it and move on.

I agree with that completely. However the question is, is this going to become a universal allowance based on an antidiscrimination law? That every fitness club must allow men to use the women's locker room?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Obviously recording people in the bathroom and accusing them of being a "pedo" isn't the right approach...which is why I criticized her actions, at length, earlier. Silva is still ultimately in the wrong here.

But it raises valid questions about how society should handle these types of situations.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about seeing what she saw in the women's facility.

If someone clearly looks nothing like the gender they're identifying with... How is anyone feasibly expected to differentiate?

It would also appear that Silva isn't the first person who thought that the situation was odd enough to document it...


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Well if I want to go watch women changing and showering, now I know where to go and how to get away with it.

 

[Bradskii]

To me this is like arguing whether or not you should stop at a red light or a stop sign.

Well, that's there for eveyone to see.

I spend a few posts pointing out the stupidity of treating individual incidents as if they can be treated as a black and white problem, that there is no definitive right or wrong answer that you can use for all...and you compare it to a go or no situation.

What can I say? You seem to have no grasp of any argument that's put to you. This exchange has been a waste of time.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Well, that's there for eveyone to see.

I spend a few posts pointing out the stupidity of treating individual incidents as if they can be treated as a black and white problem, that there is no definitive right or wrong answer that you can use for all...and you compare it to a go or no situation.

What can I say? You seem to have no grasp of any argument that's put to you. This exchange has been a waste of time.

Your continual carping and insults aside, it's a simple matter of I don't agree with you. I don't see it as this that and the other and such in such depending on multiple scenarios. For a very long time in our society there's been a simple rule that's easy to understand and easy to follow even for a kindergartener. And really there's only two choices; stick with it or dump it. And the reason for that is there's no set guideline for what qualifies as a trans person. A person doesn't have to meet any standard whatsoever, other than saying "I identify as [whatever]" IF questioned. But even questioning is discouraged. So there's sticking to the rule of men don't belong in women's locker rooms etc, or dumping that rule altogether and having women's and girl's restrooms, locker rooms and spas open to men.

If you think a grey area can be established then establish it.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Are you saying there are no stupid ideas?

No, I'm saying that calling something stupid because you disagree with it is juvenile. This has been Planet Fitness's policy for about 10 years now. I've not heard of any issues related to it, other than a people complaining about the idea. That suggests that the policy is not a problem.

However the question is, is this going to become a universal allowance based on an antidiscrimination law? That every fitness club must allow men to use the women's locker room?

We shall see, but that seems unlikely at this stage.

Well if I want to go watch women changing and showering, now I know where to go and how to get away with it.

Planet Fitness still has room in their policies to kick people out for being creeps.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

So I asked you how you might handle this one.

As I said, there is no catch-all remedy for most of the problems in the world. They are rarely black and white so solutions that are simplistic and likewise dichromatic aren't suitable. The trite 'men don't belong in women's changing rooms' is a waste of time as an argument in these cases.

I would've simply alerted the staff and let them handle it.


...and I don't think anyone's suggesting that every problem has a catch-all solution.

However, with regards to this challenge in particular. When taking something that was considered an "either / or" for nearly as long as humanity has existed, and trying to instantly swap it to a "neither / both / a little of each", that's going to create a lot of issues when foisted on people.


That's why the legal frameworks (and policies of private companies for that matter) tend to be structured around "what's applicable to most people".

For instance, it'd be trying to trying to accommodate everyone, individually, with regards to the rules of the road. Are there people who can drive more safely at 80mph than some people do at 40mph? Of course. Are there some people who can drink 3 beers and not be meaningfully impaired, while others can get quite buzzed after 1 drink?... sure. However, the rules are "Speed limit is 65, and if you're over 0.08 BAC, we designate that as impaired"

Is that "fair"? No... you're limiting one person's ability to do something based on generalized facets of the "herd".


But in situations where rules/laws can't be practically/feasibly fined tuned to suit everyone's individual situation, certain things have to end up being structured around "what works for most people".

 

[Ceallaigh]

No, I'm saying that calling something stupid because you disagree with it is juvenile.

What if I genuinely think it's a stupid idea?

This has been Planet Fitness's policy for about 10 years now. I've not heard of any issues related to it, other than a people complaining about the idea. That suggests that the policy is not a problem.

According to BBB PF has gotten a lot of complaints, and has a low Consumer Affairs rating. So maybe there's a problem afterall.

We shall see, but that seems unlikely at this stage.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening already, especially in women's sports?

Planet Fitness still has room in their policies to kick people out for being creeps.

How can it be determined if the dude really identifies as female or is just a creep?

 

[Ceallaigh]

I would've simply alerted the staff and let them handle it.

I think the picture taker wanted to create an exposé.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

According to BBB PF has gotten a lot of complaints, and has a low Consumer Affairs rating. So maybe there's a problem afterall.

People complaining about a policy only indicates that those people do not like said policy. Reports of assaults or attempted assaults would indicate an actual problem.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening already, especially in women's sports?

No - in fact, women's sports have generally been rolling back trans-inclusionary policies, at least at the professional level.

How can it be determined if the dude really identifies as female or is just a creep?

Behavior.

 

[Ceallaigh]

People complaining about a policy only indicates that those people do not like said policy. Reports of assaults or attempted assaults would indicate an actual problem.

Should the bar be set at attempted assaults?

No - in fact, women's sports have generally been rolling back trans-inclusionary policies, at least at the professional level.

Perhaps for the time being but the push against anti-LGBTQ and transphobia is pretty strong.

Behavior.

There have been newsworthy creeps who managed to go undetected for years. The news stories usually often have a line about how family and friends where shocked to find out he was a creep.