Ellen White: Meat eating weakens moral powers

trophy33

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People that eat vegetarian diets tend to have significantly high heart rate variability, which is a generally accepted biomarker for better stress adaptation, among other things. So perhaps White's words aren't so ridiculous after all.
This looks like some ad-hoc "fact" found somewhere randomly.

Really important fundamental things, for example that our brain needs fats found only in animal food (and its not a coincidence that people on diets with low animal fats have so frequent mental problems and later in life dementia, Alzheimer etc.), should be the priority for our diet.
 
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This looks like some ad-hoc "fact" found somewhere randomly.

Really important fundamental things, for example that our brain needs fats found only in animal food (and its not a coincidence that people on diets with low animal fats have so frequent mental problems and later in life dementia, Alzheimer etc.), should be the priority for our diet.

There isn't any good evidence people eating a plant-based diet are at increased risk of dementia. Admittedly, there haven't been alot of good studies on this issue due to limitations in these types of studies and small sample sizes, but what little evidence exists doesn't show an increased risk of dementia, and there may be protective benefits from eating a diet high in vegetables and fruits.

Essential fatty acids can be found in green, leafy vegetables, and nuts and seeds like walnut or chia. THe human body normally can synthesize EPA and DHA from a sufficient quantity of ALA found in plants.
 
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trophy33

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There isn't any good evidence people eating a plant-based diet are at increased risk of dementia. Admittedly, there haven't been alot of good studies on this issue due to limitations in these types of studies and small sample sizes, but what little evidence exists doesn't show an increased risk of dementia, and there may be protective benefits from eating a diet high in vegetables and fruits.

Essential fatty acids can be found in green, leafy vegetables, and nuts and seeds like walnut or chia. THe human body normally can synthesize EPA and DHA from a sufficient quantity of ALA found in plants.
For example, this video can be useful regarding what we should eat:
 
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People that eat vegetarian diets tend to have significantly high heart rate variability, which is a generally accepted biomarker for better stress adaptation, among other things. So perhaps White's words aren't so ridiculous after all.


The thread is not focused on health, or dealing with stress. Nor am I opposed to people being vegetarian. I was one for many years. According to Scripture, man was not given meat until after the flood.

Her statement that God did not want the Israelites to eat meat, or that they failed morally because of meat eating, is the part that is ridiculous. It certainly doesn't match up with the text:

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.
 
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The thread is not focused on health, or dealing with stress. Nor am I opposed to people being vegetarian. I was one for many years. According to Scripture, man was not given meat until after the flood.

Her statement that God did not want the Israelites to eat meat, or that they failed morally because of meat eating, is the part that is ridiculous. It certainly doesn't match up with the text:

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.
Thank you for getting us back to the OP. To say the least, she was very weak in her efforts to find scripture to uphold her a priori assumptions.
 
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The thread is not focused on health, or dealing with stress. Nor am I opposed to people being vegetarian. I was one for many years. According to Scripture, man was not given meat until after the flood.

Her statement that God did not want the Israelites to eat meat, or that they failed morally because of meat eating, is the part that is ridiculous. It certainly doesn't match up with the text:

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

She implied that they were weakened by their desire for meat, and the story in Exodus actually seems to support this, since they wanted meat so bad, they regretted leaving Egypt.
 
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tall73

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She implied that they were weakened by their desire for meat, and the story in Exodus actually seems to support this, since they wanted meat so bad, they regretted leaving Egypt.

Was the problem the meat?

They also desired onions, garlic, melons, cucumbers, etc.

Numbers 11:4-6​
4 Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: “Who will give us meat to eat? 5 We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; 6 but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!” (NKJV)​

They did not, however, want more manna. And they grumbled against the Lord who provided it. They grumbled against the One who delivered them from slavery, preserved them from the onslaught of the Egyptians, made them His treasured possession, and took care of them on the way.

Was the problem the meat?

Then later, we find Him blessing them with meat in the promised land, and they can eat as much as they desire.

He commanded the priests to eat the portion from the offerings. He commanded the people to eat of the Passover, etc. Was the problem the meat?

Or was it the complaining, instead of relying on God in faith?

1 Corinthians 10:1-13​
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.​
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.​
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (NKJV)​
 
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She implied that they were weakened by their desire for meat, and the story in Exodus actually seems to support this, since they wanted meat so bad, they regretted leaving Egypt.

By her logic they should have been in prime spiritual condition because they had not had meat yet!

But they were not. They lacked faith, and were full of grumbling.
 
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As can be seen from the above, Ellen White indicated that eating meat reduced moral power among the Israelites. She indicated they departed from the plan appointed for their diet, and suffered loss, not reaching God's ideal of character or fulfilling His purpose.


However, these claims do not match up with Scripture

I didn't read all this but in any case, Jesus celebrated the Passover, which required lamb to be eaten.

I never could understand finding veganism in the Bible! In Genesis, Adam and E supposedly ate vegetables, bu that's about the end of that kind of story. Maybe the Fall was when our bodies began to require meat? I don't know but in any case, there no prohibition in the Bible
 
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tall73

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I didn't read all this but in any case, Jesus celebrated the Passover, which required lamb to be eaten.

I never could understand finding veganism in the Bible! In Genesis, Adam and E supposedly ate vegetables, bu that's about the end of that kind of story. Maybe the Fall was when our bodies began to require meat? I don't know but in any case, there no prohibition in the Bible
Meat was given after the flood:

Genesis 9:1-7 1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
 
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Meat was given after the flood:

Genesis 9:1-7 1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
If we want to work with these mythological stories like they could tell us something about when meat was eaten or not, then Abel was already a shepherd.
 
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trophy33

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The argument to that is that he raised sheep for their wool only.
Its just an ad-hoc claim invented to keep their dogma.

According to Genesis 4:4:
"And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering..."

He did not bring wool, but fatty meat (best parts for eating).
 
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FireDragon76

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I didn't read all this but in any case, Jesus celebrated the Passover, which required lamb to be eaten.

We don't actually know that for certain. It's not clear the Last Supper events refer to the Passover.
 
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tall73

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I didn't read all this but in any case, Jesus celebrated the Passover, which required lamb to be eaten.

We don't actually know that for certain. It's not clear the Last Supper events refer to the Passover.
Luke 22:7-16 7 Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed. 8 And He sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat.”​
9 So they said to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare?”​
10 And He said to them, “Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house which he enters. 11 Then you shall say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says to you, “Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with My disciples?” ’ 12 Then he will show you a large, furnished upper room; there make ready.”​
13 So they went and found it just as He had said to them, and they prepared the Passover.​
14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” (NKJV)​
Whether you hold the last supper to be a Passover, or not, the text still indicates Jesus asked them to prepare the Passover, and He desired to eat it.​
But more than that, an Israelite was required to eat the Passover:​
Numbers 9:9-13​
9 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If anyone of you or your posterity is unclean because of a corpse, or is far away on a journey, he may still keep the LORD’s Passover. 11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at twilight, they may keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break one of its bones. According to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it. 13 But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and ceases to keep the Passover, that same person shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of the LORD at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin. (NKJV)​
 
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Its just an ad-hoc claim invented to keep their dogma.

According to Genesis 4:4:
"And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering..."

He did not bring wool, but fatty meat (best parts for eating).
Quite true. At best, it is a flimsy argument.
 
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Its just an ad-hoc claim invented to keep their dogma.

According to Genesis 4:4:
"And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering..."

He did not bring wool, but fatty meat (best parts for eating).

a. You have not addressed what the text said about initially giving plants to eat, and now giving them moving things. What do you think it was supposed to mean?

Genesis 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every animal of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.​

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I have given everything to you, as I gave the green plant.​

b. Regarding Abel, yes he was already tending the flock.

Genesis 4:2 And again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a cultivator of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord from the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought an offering, from the firstborn of his flock and from their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering​

You present no evidence of people eating animals in the text prior to the flood. Sacrifice was the use made of the animal in the passage. And if they were regularly sacrificing, then having a heard to do so would make sense.

Whether they used the flock for wool, etc. is not mentioned. But we do know that they were provided garments of skin by God in the garden. So the notion of using animals for practical uses other than food is not that unusual.

Genesis 3:21 And the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them​

We only have limited information about the period immediately after the flood. But there was already a clean and unclean status to animals prior to the flood, referenced in the text. Since after the flood the animals are said to be given as food, then the likely explanation is that prior the distinction of clean and unclean dealt with sacrificial animals.

Genesis 7:2 You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; and two of the animals that are not clean, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, seven pairs, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth.​
Sacrifice was again a use made of animals when Noah got out of the ark, prior to the giving of animals for food. And it is clearly associated with the clean animals.

Genesis 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took some of every kind of clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.​

c. You reference mythology, so I am not sure how you view the meaning of the text overall. But in any case, elements of the text of Genesis indicate that the book is written from the perspective of someone familiar with at least some of Israel's founding and history. So descriptions of fat portions would not be surprising, from the perspective of people who did eat meat, but also were familiar with sacrificial offering, and its language, which uses similar terms.

In any case, the use of animals as sacrifices and clothing are both concretely referenced in the text, while use as food is not. And a statement is present that indicates God gave plants for food. And another, later, statement is given that states animals were given after the flood, as plants were before. So it will take more than just saying that the presence of herds, and reference to fat portions, demands that people were eating animals at the time. This is especially true since the account is written for a people that lived in a time when animals were food, (and understood what fatty portions would entail for food, and sacrifice), but seem to reference a time when meat was not food. They would have little reason to downplay meat eating in the pre-flood times.
 
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How long did Ms White live?

vegans don't live long. I've studied nutrition and related issues.

meat eaters and those who drink small amounts of liquor live the longest
I can offer anecdotal evidence to that effect. My grandmother and mother, both of whom regularly ate meat, including the dreaded pork of the SDA, lived to 90 and 91, respectively. On my father's side there were six brothers who, in the eighteenth century, all lived past 90 and one lived to be 100 - all meat eaters. My mother had a first cousin who not only ate meat but enjoyed a small glass of wine at dinner. She lived to be two days shy of her 104th birthday.

By the way, all of these relative had strong moral fiber.
 
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