Since animals and man ate plants in Genesis 1, how does that fit theistic evolution?
- Thread starter Michael Scaman
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Monna
Well-Known Member
I accept that man's logic is not always correct, but God did give us minds and brains to think...
Since it doesn't explicitly say that Adam and Eve were immortal before the Fall, I have to consider the evidence that is made available, and ask myself
Why was there are Tree of Life in the Garden?
... if they were immortal, they didn't need it...
... when they sinned, God quickly made sure they could not get at it.
... i.e. there was no point in its presence in the Garden if they were originally immortal.
my (current) conclusion: they were not immortal. Please inform me if and where this logic is unsound. I am not dogmatic about this.
But I have another angle on the question: God told Adam and Eve they could eat of every plant and herb and fruit, but he did not say explicitly they could eat insects, birds, animals. Does this mean we should be vegetarians, or even vegans?
Under the 'law of Moses' the Israelites were permitted to eat certain categories of (clean) animals, and forbidden to eat other (unclean) ones.
Peter had a vision in which a huge canvas filled with all sorts of forbidden animals, and told to eat from it, and he understood this to mean that the previous prohibitions were lifted ... i.e. he was now permitted to eat everything - "nothing that God created is unclean" is one way of interpreting this vision. The immediate application was that Peter should stop seeing the gentiles, and in particular the hated Roman occupation forces as unclean, and that the Spirit wanted him to go to see Cornelius the Roman Centurion. But his immediate understanding was definitely about eating unclean animals (as shown by his reaction).
What do we make of all this variability of dietary permissions and prohibitions in the scriptures....?
As to your original question, Michael, I don't really understand it. But then I'm not very quick mentally, nor am I an expert on "theistic evolution." Perhaps you can explain the difficulty you see.
Since it doesn't explicitly say that Adam and Eve were immortal before the Fall, I have to consider the evidence that is made available, and ask myself
Why was there are Tree of Life in the Garden?
... if they were immortal, they didn't need it...
... when they sinned, God quickly made sure they could not get at it.
... i.e. there was no point in its presence in the Garden if they were originally immortal.
my (current) conclusion: they were not immortal. Please inform me if and where this logic is unsound. I am not dogmatic about this.
But I have another angle on the question: God told Adam and Eve they could eat of every plant and herb and fruit, but he did not say explicitly they could eat insects, birds, animals. Does this mean we should be vegetarians, or even vegans?
Under the 'law of Moses' the Israelites were permitted to eat certain categories of (clean) animals, and forbidden to eat other (unclean) ones.
Peter had a vision in which a huge canvas filled with all sorts of forbidden animals, and told to eat from it, and he understood this to mean that the previous prohibitions were lifted ... i.e. he was now permitted to eat everything - "nothing that God created is unclean" is one way of interpreting this vision. The immediate application was that Peter should stop seeing the gentiles, and in particular the hated Roman occupation forces as unclean, and that the Spirit wanted him to go to see Cornelius the Roman Centurion. But his immediate understanding was definitely about eating unclean animals (as shown by his reaction).
What do we make of all this variability of dietary permissions and prohibitions in the scriptures....?
As to your original question, Michael, I don't really understand it. But then I'm not very quick mentally, nor am I an expert on "theistic evolution." Perhaps you can explain the difficulty you see.
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depends what you mean by immortal... they died... so... not in a classic sense
They had a dependent life would be closer to it.
Why the tree of life? perhaps they needed to continue to eat it to continue to have life... the tree of life shows up in Revelation and lines the river with leaves that are for the healing of the nations.
When they sinned they no longer had access to continue to eat the tree of life. perhaps.
I admit there is some speculation here, alternatively they could have chosen the tree of life and did not and later God did not want them living forever unredeemed... that is another explanation some have used
They had a dependent life would be closer to it.
Why the tree of life? perhaps they needed to continue to eat it to continue to have life... the tree of life shows up in Revelation and lines the river with leaves that are for the healing of the nations.
When they sinned they no longer had access to continue to eat the tree of life. perhaps.
I admit there is some speculation here, alternatively they could have chosen the tree of life and did not and later God did not want them living forever unredeemed... that is another explanation some have used
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Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
For animals and humans to digest food, the Second Law of Thermodynamics has to be in place. Also, if animals and humans were only vegetarians, why do all hominid and some non-hominids have cuspids? Cuspids are useless for chewing plants. They are very useful for tearing meat.
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Genesis 1:2 shows that darkness/death was upon the air, dust and water God created apart from Himself. The fall of mankind brought death ALL men.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
No death before the fall is the traditional theology of ancient men who lived thousands of years before Christ. Eating plants only is good for at most, 120 years Gen 6:3 in the flesh.
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Adam lived with Jesus (Lord God) from BEFORE the stars until the present 6th Day/Age in the creation of the perfect 3rd Heaven. In man's time, he lived with Jesus before the beginning of our Cosmos until some 12k years ago or Billions of years. He also lived for 930 years AFTER he and Eve were born again Spiritually in Christ, which was AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2 This means that our first parents are today immortal and we will be able to speak with them in Heaven. Amen?
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Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
We are still evolving. There will be things that are vestigial in our anatomy.
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And not only that, but flat out bad designs (see the human retina, for example) But I may have misunderstood your initial point.
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Some carnivores simply could not survive on a vegetarian diet --- their digestive system and their dentition is entirely wrong.
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There is Adam and Eve, two full grown, educated adults who speak the same language as "the crafty beast" who (already fell) and was trying to ensnare the pair and sabotage their mission. Then there is a story about Adam and Eve written by holy men looooong after the fact.
The elements that were used to create the story are more consistent with two incarnate celestials from another world who arrived to be the worlds new spiritual rulers but in short order failed.
The archeological record is more consistent with an old earth that was host to an evolution of life over a very long period of time. In fact if "will conscious" man is roughly 1 million years old and life evolved from primitive patterns over a period of 550,000,000 years, then mans story is a tiny fraction of that time.
So much of religion is the speculation of religious men.
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If death wasn't natural already, the earth would be very crowded! And somehow not dying from starvation???? I'm going with what IS, not the speculation about what was supposed to happen on the part of the shamans.
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Right. A world without death doesn't work. For instance, consider the mantisplosion:
A praying mantis lays hundreds of eggs per season. If all of those live (because there is no death), then from 1 mantis pair in year 1, you'll have:
Year: Number of Mantids:
1 2
2 200
3 20000
4 2000000
5 2E+08
6 2E+10
7 2E+12
8 2E+14
9 2E+16
10 2E+18
11 2E+20
12 2E+22
13 2E+24
14 2E+26
15 2E+28
16 2E+30
17 2E+32
18 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (just to show what kind of numbers we have)
19 2E+36
20 2E+38
So that means that by around year 12, mantids cover the earth to the depth of 1 mile, and by year 16, the writhing mass of mantids engulfs the moon, expanding at an ever increasing speed to engulf the sun the next year and the whole solar system (including the Kuiper belt) the year after that. The mantisplosion! Things go even faster for many other insect species, because the reproduce faster.
Silly? Of course it is. Things get silly when one misinterprets scripture.
And so on. Any working creation will need tons of death. In our own growth in the womb, programmed cell death happens often - such as when the cells between our fingers die, allowing us to have separate fingers. Without physical death, we'd all be round balls of flesh.
Papias
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CrystalDragon
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Not to mention whoever wrote Genesis (whether it was Moses or not) wrote it LONG after the supposed events. It's not explicitly stated that Moses (or whoever wrote it) was given a vision by God of what truly happened—and that wasn't even the first book of the Bible ever written, Job was. And Adam or Eve never wrote anything down.
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CrystalDragon
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Thing is, books that would go in the Bible were decided over centuries. That verse was placed when the New Testament was still being written, so we can't say that all of the New Testament was "100% God-breathed" because it was wasn't compiled yet. Plus, take the book of Enoch: it was mentioned at one point in the Bible, so one would think it would be "God-breathed Scripture" in that case, but the Book of Enoch itself is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Did the people of the day think the Book o Enoch was inspired by God but they were wrong? Did those who compiled the Bible manipulate things? Plus the only reason we have four Gospels is because a bishop in 180 AD liked the number 4. What about the other 60 or so Gospels that were in circulation? Were they not God-breathed? How can we tell which ones were inspired by God and which were not? How can we be sure any of them are?
Not to mention saying that something is true just because it says it is is circular reasoning.
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2Ti 3:16 was just someone's opinion, the church decided that even Paul's letters were scripture so as to provide a foundation for the churches authority. Scripture is written in preacher speak when it's largely human.
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Not so since Genesis chapter one is currently being confirmed by the discoveries of Science and History, as we speak. God told us that He would pour out His Spirit (Spirit of Truth) on ALL flesh, in the last days.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon ALL flesh:
All flesh includes evolutionists, scientists, scoffers, etc. Can you tell us HOW God is delivering His Truth to us today, in these last days? God hid His Truth in the discoveries of Science which are currently taking place. Only God knew the discoveries being made today more than 3k years ago and wrote it all in Genesis Chapter one. It's PROOF of God. God Bless you
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