Is Western Liberal Democracy inherently anti-Christ or Satanic?

Valletta

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Do you know why John Wycliffe broke with the RCC? At that time, the Catholic Church charged a fee for baptisms. Most people were serfs, tied to the land, to their feudal lord, and had very little money. About half of the children died in childhood. To the average serf, paying to baptize a child that might not live was a waste of money. The RCC taught that a child who dies unbaptized goes to hell. Although the population of England and Scotland was much lower then than it is today, over a century or so, millions of unbaptized children would be going to hell because of the fee for baptisms, according to RCC theology. Wycliffe revolted at this and founded a sect called the Lollards, offering baptism without a charge. Baptism was free so that poor serfs could afford it.

Why is Wycliffe right? Wycliffe is right because he had compassion. The Roman Catholic Church did not.
Never heard the story before about the Church charging for Baptisms. Do you have any documentation? In fact the Lollards taught that Baptism was not necessary. That's quite a charge, that the Catholic Church, made up of Jesus and all of those saints and sinners struggling to be saints, lacked compassion.
 
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helmut

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In the German constitution protection of the weakest is from conception to grave.
That's the theory.

In practice, the protection is rather weak for the first 12 weeks (pregnancy weeks, counted from the last menstruation) - a woman needs a certified counseling to get a legal abortion. For certain cases (e.g. disabled fetus), abortion can be done up to the 22nd week.

And just now the government starts an initiative which may result in a new law with much weaker rules - the opposition announced they would call go the constitution court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) if such a law were passed.
It has a lower rate of abortion than the USA but also provides full comprehensive care for the sick, the old, the widow and the orphan not to mention those stuck in poverty. Aside from the super-rich in the USA, who are after all less than 1% of the population, I would suggest that most Germans enjoy a higher standard of living even despite their compassion, they live longer and live healthier longer in a cleaner environment.
As to cleaner environment, I'm not sure. We have a much denser population (85 Millions in an area almost as big as Montana), which automatically means more impact to the environment. But we have, generally speaking, higher standards. About the average net effect, I'm not sure.
Greed and selfishness may work as a generator of wealth but needs to be balanced by care for those who get left behind.
 
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helmut

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The neo-colonialism of American capitalist firms like United Fruit in South America at least organized these countries to produce useful products e.g. fruit. The alternative in context was probably communist hegemony of the region
Not in the 1930s when Sandino lived.

Communists profited quite much from the neo-colonialism and the like. This resulted sometimes in the alternative of US-backed fascism or communism.
Now the various organized crime families that control much of these countries trade sell drugs instead.
In part due to some cooperation between CIA and drug syndicates in the 1960s.
I agree that Iran's attack was telegraphed and amounted to nothing much. But American capabilities in the region are not in doubt.
The USA have forsaken the Syrian Kurds and left the country to Assad and Russia. What will happen if Iran fuels anti-Israel feelings in Jordan to the point that the king will be overthrown, and Syria intervenes as Assad did in Lebanon? According to the so-called »America first« policy we have seen in Syria the USA will not resist …
Putin is no Nebuchadnezzar and has no chance of sacking Brussels and transporting its treasures and ruling class to Moscow.
Not now. Babylon started as an ally (2.Ki 20:12ff), for some time Juda was a sort of buffer state between Babylon and Egypt.

I did not mean a 1:1 mapping, the comparison was a little bit loose.
Swedish per capita income has more than doubled since 1976 from a high base, neo-liberal policies helped with its growth rate but it remains one of the most egalitarian societies in Europe. So not sure why you used it as an example.
If you subtract inflation, the rise was not that high. And per capita is less important for the masses as a median. It is a fact that the discomfort and tensions in Sweden are high contrasted to the socialist era. This was my point.
 
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Simon_Templar

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You say that Protestantism makes everyone their own Pope. Are you aware of the magnitude of division and animosity between Roman Catholics these days? We have the sedevacantists bitterly arguing with the “recognize and resist” camp, and many who think that Pope Francis is okay, or at least survivable.

The fact that there are schismatics and heretics don't invalidate the unity of the Church. People who reject authority, don't invalidate authority.


Do you know why John Wycliffe broke with the RCC? At that time, the Catholic Church charged a fee for baptisms. Most people were serfs, tied to the land, to their feudal lord, and had very little money. About half of the children died in childhood. To the average serf, paying to baptize a child that might not live was a waste of money. The RCC taught that a child who dies unbaptized goes to hell. Although the population of England and Scotland was much lower then than it is today, over a century or so, millions of unbaptized children would be going to hell because of the fee for baptisms, according to RCC theology. Wycliffe revolted at this and founded a sect called the Lollards, offering baptism without a charge. Baptism was free so that poor serfs could afford it.

This was how parish priests were paid, and still are in poor areas of the world even today. It was, and is, subject to abuse. However, abuse is not the rule. The idea that millions of people went unbaptized because priests refused the sacrament to those who could not pay is absurd and unfounded.

Why is Wycliffe right? Wycliffe is right because he had compassion. The Roman Catholic Church did not.

Luther was right about the abuse of selling indulgences. That didn't make him right about everything else. Wycliffe may have been right about the abuses of greedy clergy, that doesn't make him right about everything else.

If you follow him in the things he is wrong about, because he was right about that one thing, you are still wrong.

The fact of the matter is, almost no protestants alive today would even agree with either Wycliffe's actual beliefs, or Jan Huss's actual beliefs. They just like to use them as symbols because they broke with the authority of the Church.


On Jan Hus ...

Summary of the first of the Four Prague Articles put forward by followers of Jan Hus:[/SIZE]

The Word of God is to be freely examined by Christian priests throughout the Kingdom of Bohemia and the Margravate of Moravia.”

At the time of Jan Hus, the right of individual Christians to read the Bible for themselves wasn’t even being discussed yet. They were still fighting for the right of the parish priests to read the Bible for themselves.

This is not accurate.

The first article, of the four articles of Prague is not about priests having the right to read the Bible. No one was forbidden from reading the Bible. Bibles were freely available in Churches and people could come to the Church and read it, if they were able. Bible's were chained up in Churches because they were incredibly expensive to make before the printing press. The point of having the Bible chained up was specifically to make it available to the public, and avoid having it stolen (which would then make it no longer available to the public).

Further, clergy were generally educated in schools where they studied the Bible. However, during the Black Death (right before the time of Jan Huss) the clergy suffered a higher death rate that the laity, because the clergy were caring for the sick. Note the contradiction that the clergy died from the plague because they were caring for the sick and administering sacraments when even the vitcims own family abandoned them, yet the clergy were all greedy, money grubbers who wouldn't life a finger without being paid, right? As a result, after the Black Death, the ranks of the clergy were severely depleted. As a result many of those who were ordained were either uneducated or badly educated.

What the first article actually demands is that priests be able to preach their own interpretation of the word of God without restriction by civil authorities. In other words, they were demanding that civil rulers, like the Holy Roman Emperor, King of Bohemia, and local Princes could not intervene to stop heretics from preaching (so long as the heretic in question was a priest).

In the summary you give here, the word examined means publicly examined as in being exposited and interpreted in a sermon. You can find the text for yourself if you doubt my word.




Why is Jan Hus right? He died a martyr’s death. He fought for the contents of the Bible to be more widely read, studied and understood. This outweighs any errors he made.

Jan Huss was not right.

Here is the thing, I don't know you or what you believe, but I'm willing to bet you don't even think Jan Hus was right. In other words, I'm willing to bet you don't believe what he believed.

The idea that this was all about people being able to read the bible is hogwash (as I established above). The #1 tenet of Jan Huss' beliefs and those of his followers was that salvation was conditional upon partaking in both the body and the blood of Christ during the eucharist. Thus people had to have both the Chalice and the Host, which he believed were the True Body and True Blood of Christ. They believed and taught that if you did not partake in both during Holy Communion, you could not be saved.

Both Huss and Wycliffe also reacted (overreacted) against Clerical wealth and greed, and basically demanded that Clergy not be allowed to own anything and be forced to engage in radical poverty.

Do you agree with that? Does the clergy of your church own their own homes? Or do they live on the streets and beg for food to survive?
 
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helmut

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The first article, of the four articles of Prague is not about priests having the right to read the Bible. No one was forbidden from reading the Bible.
This is a half true.
Bibles were freely available in Churches
Latin Bibles. Who could read them?

Moreover, since about 1200, in several European countries laymen were forbidden to read the Bible.

So, at the same time when priests translated the Bible into Indian languages in South America, people in France were persecuted because they read a Gospel in the Provencal (or »Occidental«, as it is often called by now) language.
Does the clergy of your church own their own homes?
No.
Or do they live on the streets and beg for food to survive?
No. They live in rented apartments.

And unlike Dale, I know that Hus was in some respects more like Franciscus from Assisi.
 
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Valletta

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This is a half true.

Latin Bibles. Who could read them?

Moreover, since about 1200, in several European countries laymen were forbidden to read the Bible.
As to the Catholic Church, when altered heretical versions of the Bible appeared they did not want Catholics to read them, it did result in a local ban in Spain on those fake Bibles at one time. But realize that it was Catholics who translated Biblical text into so many languages and preserved the Bible over the centuries, preaching the Gospel to the people around the world. I know Protestants in England were quite harsh on Catholics who tried to bring the English version of the Bible, called the Douay-Rheims, to the people of England. As to Latin, after Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people in Europe, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. So at one in Europe, essentially if you could read and write--you spoke Latin. Eventually Latin morphed into various languages such as Italian, Spanish, and French, and then came more translations by Catholics. There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian as well. There were English translations of Biblical text long before Tyndale.
 
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helmut

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As to the Catholic Church, when altered heretical versions of the Bible appeared they did not want Catholics to read them
There is no indications that the Italian translations of Gospel ans Psalms used by the Waldensians were made by them, or contained anything heretic. Only when the Waldensians read it and preached, these books were forbidden.

The Latin Church did not want any interpretation that did not support her claims of authority.
But realize that it was Catholics who translated Biblical text into so many languages and preserved the Bible over the centuries, preaching the Gospel to the people around the world.
I mentioned it … the other side of the coin is: Whenever people read the Bible and came to conclusions which were not the same as the Latin church's doctrine, the reading of the Bible was barred for laymen.
I know Protestants in England
I'm German.
"Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people.
Which was true in the 4th century for Hispania (including modern Portugal), Gaul (much of France), parts of England (before the Romans left), Italy, North Africa and Dacia (much of what is modern Romania). But this changed: North Africa ans England ceased to be Latin lands, Germany or Scandinavia never were ones, and language change made the classical Latin unintelligible to the uneducated.
There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian as well. There were English translations of Biblical text long before Tyndale.
The Catholic who made the translation into Bohemian (→Czech) language was Hus!
 
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ViaCrucis

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I Disagree With Your Claims

It's conservatives that protect the vulnerable and marginalized, namely the unborn innocent children in the womb from being murdered (Abortion)

You must live in a pretty nice world where the only vulnerable and marginalized people are the ones that haven't been born yet.

In the world I live, there are a lot of already born people who are having a pretty rough time.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Dale

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Never heard the story before about the Church charging for Baptisms. Do you have any documentation? In fact the Lollards taught that Baptism was not necessary. That's quite a charge, that the Catholic Church, made up of Jesus and all of those saints and sinners struggling to be saints, lacked compassion.

On peasants, or serfs, having to pay money for baptisms, I am going to quote a source I can’t link to.

“Wycliffe was a metaphysician and a theologian, and had to invent a metaphysical theory-the theory of Dominium-to enable him to transfer, in a way satisfactory to himself, the powers and priveleges of the church to his company of poor Christians; but his followers were content to allege that a church which held large landed possessions, collected tithes greedily and took money from starving peasants for baptizing, burying and praying, could not be the church of Christ and his apostles.”


Were the Lollards fully Protestant? It looks like the answer is yes.

“It was found that many of the poorer parish priests, and a great many of the chaplains and curates, were in secret association with the Lollards, so that in many places processsions were never made and worship on saints days was abandoned.”

Among Lollard beliefs:

“… that the monk’s vow of celibacy had for its consequence unnatural lust, and should not be imposed.”

“...that the vows of chastity laid on nuns led to child murder;”

“...that no special prayers should be made for the dead;”

--Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946, vol 14, under Lollards, p. 340-342.


A bit more on whether John Wycliffe and the Lollards were fully Protestant:

“The language in which he denounced transubstantiation anticipated that of the Protestant reformers;”

“It was alter that Wycliffe definitely branded the pope, qua pope, as Antichrist.”

-Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946, Volume 23, under Wycliffe, John, p. 821-824.
 
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Dale

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Never heard the story before about the Church charging for Baptisms. Do you have any documentation? In fact the Lollards taught that Baptism was not necessary. That's quite a charge, that the Catholic Church, made up of Jesus and all of those saints and sinners struggling to be saints, lacked compassion.

Valletta: “In fact the Lollards taught that Baptism was not necessary.”

I’m not sure exactly where that came from. It is true that being opposed to “superstition” was one of their basic points. They regarded the notion of a parish priest turning water into Holy Water as a form of magic, prohibited by the Bible. That could be the origin of the notion that they opposed being baptized with Holy Water by a Catholic priest. Also, some Lollards came to reject infant baptism, as many Protestants do today.

Consider the following quote.

“In some areas, infant baptism was held to be as acceptable in a ditch as in a font, or rejected altogether, on the grounds that infants were redeemed by Christ in any case and did not need to be sprinkled with supposedly holy water.”

Link
Introducing The Lollards - Anabaptist Mennonite Network


Valletta: “That's quite a charge, that the Catholic Church, made up of Jesus and all of those saints and sinners struggling to be saints, lacked compassion.”

That is your belief, not mine.
 
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rturner76

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It's absolutely NOT anti-Christian or satanic in nature. What it is is supportive of an anti-Christian-based government. Though many of the founding fathers were Christian, they set up a secular government so religion would not rule but the people. As imperfect the system is, it's specifically set up to be based more on the will of the people than the will of God. Especially since Protestant groups can't agree on what is Christian and the US is a mostly Protestant nation, it has to be run by the majority, not any specific Protestant church.
 
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Valletta

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It's absolutely NOT anti-Christian or satanic in nature. What it is is supportive of an anti-Christian-based government. Though many of the founding fathers were Christian, they set up a secular government so religion would not rule but the people. As imperfect the system is, it's specifically set up to be based more on the will of the people than the will of God. Especially since Protestant groups can't agree on what is Christian and the US is a mostly Protestant nation, it has to be run by the majority, not any specific Protestant church.
Our founding document recognizes that our rights from God--that is what makes our country great and different than others. That there shall be no one state religion is in our Constitution.
 
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rturner76

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Our founding document recognizes that our rights from God--that is what makes our country great and different than others. That there shall be no one state religion is in our Constitution.
I agree but who's God specifically? The Methodist God? The Baptist God, the Catholic God? Perhaps the Mormon God as it was created in the United States.

I believe in context, their reference to God is in that ALL humans a born with certain rights (not commandments), including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People from all religious walks agree that these are basic human rights and we don't need a specific God to worship as a nation but even someone you doesn't believe in God is still a beneficiary of these rights. So, I understand that at the time it was easier to say God gave us these rights but it's human beings regardless of religious belief are entitled to them. Religious and non-religious people simply call them "human rights" or "natural rights" but there is no religion tied to it.
 
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helmut

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Were the Lollards fully Protestant?
The answer depends what you mean with that term.

There are similarities and differences between Lollards and modern protestants.

They did not teach the Lutheran doctrine of justification, they demanded that a priest should be sinless, lest the sacraments given by him were without any worth. And AFAIK they accepted seven sacraments. Fully Protestant?
 
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helmut

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I agree but who's God specifically? The Methodist God? The Baptist God, the Catholic God?
I think there is no special Methodist God. Christians have different perceptions about God, but of the same God.

Mormon God is quite different, Christians don't believe in a God that started as a man-like creature …

Many of the founding fathers were no Christians, but Deist Humanists, believing in a God who created the world but gave no revelation whatsoever to men.
So, I understand that at the time it was easier to say God gave us these rights but it's human beings regardless of religious belief are entitled to them. Religious and non-religious people simply call them "human rights" or "natural rights" but there is no religion tied to it.
But there are religions in the world who oppose them. Hinduism, with the belief that a poor wretch deserves his fate because he did wrong in former life. Or Confucianism with the presumption that worthy member of a society deserve more rights that unworthy ones (so men should have more rights than women, and so on).
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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It's absolutely NOT anti-Christian or satanic in nature. What it is is supportive of an anti-Christian-based government. Though many of the founding fathers were Christian, they set up a secular government so religion would not rule but the people. As imperfect the system is, it's specifically set up to be based more on the will of the people than the will of God. Especially since Protestant groups can't agree on what is Christian and the US is a mostly Protestant nation, it has to be run by the majority, not any specific Protestant church.
Secular liberalism would mandate a sort of equality between all religions whereas Christianity would not. In that sense under the perview of Liberal democracy, Satanism is just as legitimate as Christianity and worthy of protection, but to the Christian mind and conscience this is simply abhorrent. How is this not anti-Christian in that it opposes the Christian claim to be the right and superior religion/way of life?

Wouldn't a system based on the minds of people, rather than the will of God, always be inherently Anti Christian? Because the founding morality of such a state could never recognize or act on what is truly righteous or good. In fact, such a system must inevitably suppress the dominant Christian majority in order to support the Non-Christian minority by removing Christianity from public life.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm sure I am. One of the basic realities of human nature is that it is impossible to escape bias. The closest we can come is to be aware of our biases and to try to remind ourselves of them.

The most biased people in the world, are those who think they are not biased.
This has actually become my biggest pet peeve when talking to many Protestants. The extremely common attitude that they just take their view of scripture as simply what scripture means. There is no question of bias or interpretation. They are just right and everything they believe comes right from the Bible.




The break down of late antiquity was real, caused by plague, endemic war, leading to mass migration and resulting collapse of Roman administrative and economic infrastructure. However the change in philosophy and worldview was nothing remotely like the change that happens going from Medieval to Modern.

It is true that many of the sources of classical knowledge were lost, particularly Aristotle, but not all. The Medieval mind was still extremely heavily based on the surviving Platonic documents, even though some of these were only fragments that were preserved in commentary from other authors etc.

If you want a good overview of this, I would recommend C.S. Lewis' book The Discarded Image. It is based off of the lectures that he gave to his Medieval Literature students preparing them to read medieval literature by giving them a crash course in Medieval thought, cosmology, and worldview.

I don't mean to say that the Medievals were exactly like the Ancients. There obviously was development and change. The Medieval Mind was not exactly the same as the Ancient Mind, but there was a basic continuity of thought and belief. They had the same fundamental beliefs about the world and the nature of reality, and those formed the basis of everything else.

The Aristotelian works were rediscovered in the 13th century through contact with the Islamic world, particularly Averroes in Spain. This produced an immediate reaction in the Scholastic community (the Christian universities of Europe). This reaction included not only those who wanted to redefine Christianity based on Aristotle, but also a strain of Islamic influence that creeps in as well.

Thomas Aquinas basically refuted those scholars who were too heavily influenced by Averroes and he reconciled Aristotle and Plato with Christian doctrine, producing what is, to this day, viewed by many as almost definitive Catholic thought. this isn't quite right because Catholic thought is much broader and multifaceted, but absolutely Thomas was and is a central figure in Catholic thought.

The destruction of medieval thought began within a generation of Thomas Aquinas' death. By the mid to late 1300's William of Ockham, Marsilius of Padua, and their fellows introduced the ideas that would pave the way of Modernism, and destroy medieval and ancient thought.

One of the changes that usually goes unnoticed in this process was the change in how language was taught at the universities. Prior to this time Metaphysics had been the dominant branch of philosophy and language was taught based on metaphysical thought. The idea being that words are properly related to things, that words are almost incarnational. The thing is present in the word. This relates to Platonic/Aristotelian/Thomistic concepts of how the Forms are present in the intellect etc.

Around this time, Logic began to supplant Metaphysics as the dominant or foundational discipline in philosophy, especially at Oxford. This began to change how language was taught. Instead of thinking that words are directly tied to things, words began to be viewed as essentially logical tokens which were either validly used or invalidly used.

This, together with Nominalism, which lead to words being viewed as only labels that are applied to things only by human convention degraded our whole concept of language and though mostly overlooked, was absolutely foundational to the change of thought that happened.

The influence of Islam also showed up in the rise of Voluntarism. Basically resulting in the view that God's sovereignty means that his decisions, including what is good and what is evil, are totally arbitrary, simply resulting from whatever God happened to choose.

William of Ockham, for instance taught that God could have made murder good, and could have made martyrdom sinful. He could have made us hate a virtue instead of love, and could have ordered us to hate him. This idea, in particular radically changed views on how salvation worked.

It would probably not be correct to say that most of these ideas had never existed before, but they had never been the mainstream before for certain. They radically changed how the world was viewed. Keep in mind that this was in the 1300's Before the Renaissance really got rolling and certainly before the switchover to modernity. But they laid the foundation. They essentially destroyed what went before.

For example, Luther considered himself to be a devoted student of William of Ockham and even referred to Ockham as his master.

Nominalism and Voluntarism alone were earth-shattering. But you also have the origin of the modern conflict between science and religion. Both William and Marsilius promoted the idea of duplex veritas "two truths". They argued that there could be religious truths of faith, which contradicted the truths of natural philosophy known by reason and observation, and that both could be believed simultaneously.

This was the beginning which would eventually lead to the secularist dismissal of the supernatural as "superstition".

The renaissance was a further nail in the coffin, because of its obsession with elegance and style over substance. As you mention the scholars of the renaissance, fell in love with the Latin style of Cicero and the other classical era writers. They loved the poetics, etc. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it lead them to mock and dismiss the intellectual work of the medieval scholars simply because the Latin was clunky and inelegant. In education they tended to replace philosophy with poetics and the like.

By the time you get to the 1500's you have large movements going on in the Universities of Europe that don't resemble orthodox Catholicism at all.

For example, most people don't realize that the doctrine of salvation that Luther reacted against, wasn't even what the Church taught. It was a new idea, born out of Voluntarism and the Via Moderna, which was being taught in the universities, and had particular control over the university where Luther was educated.

This view taught that it was impossible for man to bride the gap between God and man due to sin. So, because God could arbitrarily do whatever he wanted, they taught that God had put in place an economy of salvation that required man to "do his best" and then God would make up the difference, because man could never do enough.

This places all the emphasis on Man's action. It also puts you in an impossible quandary because any person really ever say "I did my best". Could you have prayed 1 minute more? Could you have given one more penny to charity? and so on. This is why Luther struggled so badly with scrupulosity and feared so much for his salvation.

His eventual break with this doctrine produced an overreaction that caused a break with the Church. Luther also, following his master Ockham also rejected Aristotle and Plato, which put him at odds with a variety of things, most importantly the Eucharist.

there would never have been a Luther, without Nominalism, Voluntarism, Duplex Veritas, Caesero-Papism, etc. These had nothing to do with the Bible, except in the sense that they influence how you understand it.




I would admit that I overstated the case deliberately for effect. I grew up Protestant, and my subsequent study showed me that I was basically lied to. Not literally, in that the people who taught me didn't realize that what they were teaching was unntrue. However, it is accurate to say that he Protestant version of these events is heavily augmented by myth. The way protestants tell it is not accurate.

In reality both sides were arguing from scripture. The point I am attempting to get across, admittedly using some exaggeration is that the common notion that the Protestants just returned to the Bible and the Catholic teachings were all just accretions that ignored and contradicted the Bible is false.

There were, of course, legitimate complaints against the Church at the time. Even the Catholics of the time admitted this.

One of the things that ultimately was most influential in my returning to the Catholic Church was that I saw how much sense Catholic Teaching made biblically. It fit so much better with and made so much more sense of the Bible. One of the reason I had begun to look towards leaving my church tradition that I grew up in was because I began to run into questions about things that I was reading in the bible that no one could answer and that just made no sense in the context of our doctrines. I began to see things that our doctrines just dismissed and ignored, that Catholic teaching made sense of.

As a result I am passionate about the fact that Catholic teaching IS biblical and is biblically accurate. Thus it has become a pet peeve that I constantly get the attitude from Protestants that Catholicism is just unbiblical and Catholics don't believe the bible and don't know the bible and if they did they'd just become Protestant.

I do tend to hold a similar view myself, originally stated by John Newman "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant". It is one thing to know historical facts and timelines. It is another to begin to put yourself into the thought and mind of historical cultures and try to see the world through their eyes. I am convinced that Protestantism can only exist because of our modern, and now post-modern worldview.




This is beside the point of the political conversation here, but one of the problems with Protestantism is that it makes ever person their own Pope. Catholics have one Pope. Protestants have a hundred million. My point being, why is Wycliffe or Hus right about what the Bible says? When I was a Protestant I literally spent years arguing with other Protestants and all of us were convinced that we had the correct understanding of scripture?

I have a high view of reason, but your own reason is not sufficient to understand scripture. Perhaps ironically the Bible itself showed me this. If you go through and look in the New Testament at all the cases where it says that OT prophecies were fulfilled and how they were fulfilled, I am 100% convinced that no human intellect would EVER have come up with those interpretations or properly understood those scriptures.

I was also raised Charismatic, so of course we believed that the Holy Spirit would give us understanding, and speak to us individually, etc. The problem there was that in my own church, which was tiny, we routinely had people conflicting, claiming that the Holy Spirit had told them completely opposite things... so who is the Spirit speaking to? any of them?

The Biblical answer to this conundrum is that the Church is imbued with authority to interpret, to teach, and to judge in such matters and the Holy Spirit leads the Church.

Regarding this history you point out and its bearing on my previous argument. I'm sure the Reformers were influenced by Hus and Wycliffe. But using Luther as an example... did he read Hus's letter before, or after he was taught at university? Was that letter formative on his entire worldview for years? or did it come after his worldview had already been formed?

I would submit that it is just as possible that he only agreed with Hus, because he had already had the foundation laid in his worldview.
But this, ultimately is exactly what I'm getting at. Protestants like to think that the Reformers were just drawing from forerunners like Wycliffe and Hus. In reality the ideas of William of Ockham and Marsilius of Padua had greater influence and more far reaching effects.

This is they mythology of the Reformation.

Of course, it is foolish to think that anything in history has one and only one cause. People and ideas are complex, there almost always many factors involved.




I think I just showed that this notion is more true than you previously admitted.

CONTINIUED in another post, because I got too long winded...

As a former Lutheran (now Congregationalist/Reformed), I'm unaware of Luther being particular fond of Occam. Luther seems more of a Neo-Platonist metaphysically, as he recognizes that the created world participates in the life of God, that even creatures can be "masks" for God, emphasizing a divine immanence that even Catholics often don't (and in some ways, is closer to Eastern Orthodoxy).

Luther's background was in Rhineland Mysticism as much as Scholastic theology, perhaps even moreso. This is where Luther's intense interiority came from, and later Protestantism as well. He was a fan of the Theologica Germanica, for instance, and he was closer to his confessor and spiritual father, von Staupitz, who was the one that told Luther his problem was a lack of trust in God, and that he should study the Bible more.
 
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rturner76

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Many of the founding fathers were no Christians, but Deist Humanists, believing in a God who created the world but gave no revelation whatsoever to men.
Yes, "the great architect" in many early political circles.
But there are religions in the world who oppose them. Hinduism, with the belief that a poor wretch deserves his fate because he did wrong in former life. Or Confucianism with the presumption that worthy member of a society deserve more rights that unworthy ones (so men should have more rights than women, and so on).
IMO, that's the big difference between religion and spirituality. To me religion means to behave in a particular way as a rule and spirituality is more like having a relationship with one's chosen higher power. Religion is often time based on rules where spirituality is based on connection with your higher power and your fellow human beings. Many people exercise or develop spirituality through religion and some just follow the rules they were taught. Just a personal opinion with no tangible proof.
 
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helmut

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IMO, that's the big difference between religion and spirituality.
This is a matter on word usage, or definition.

I remember that in the introduction of his work on English literature in the 16th century, C.S. Lewis explained the difference between the then notions of magic and sorcery (or did he use the word witchcraft? I can't remember …) in a similar way. Magic was about methods that work automatically (the natural magic is now called science or technology), sorcery had to do with relations to spirits that help the one who knows how to motivate them …
 
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rturner76

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Secular liberalism would mandate a sort of equality between all religions whereas Christianity would not
What's wrong with equality? I do know it is common for Conservatives not to support that
Satanism is just as legitimate as Christianity and worthy of protection, but to the Christian mind and conscience this is simply abhorrent.
Do you know anything about Satanism? The Satanic Bible does not preach to do level but follow your own self-will. We have laws in place to punish those whose self-will demands violence or crime. Violence is not just anti-Christian but anti-human. Secular laws see to that.
How is this not anti-Christian in that it opposes the Christian claim to be the right and superior religion/way of life?
I didn't realize that the government was not allowing Christians to be Christians.
Wouldn't a system based on the minds of people, rather than the will of God, always be inherently Anti Christian? Because the founding morality of such a state could never recognize or act on what is truly righteous or good. In fact, such a system must inevitably suppress the dominant Christian majority in order to support the Non-Christian minority by removing Christianity from public life.
People of course have sinful minds. That is why we have a non-dictatorial government so that the majority (who is not evil) can vote down laws that harm other people. Is anybody truly righteous or good? The Bible says no, not one. If Christians are the majority, why can't they vote based on their Christian values? Oh, that's right, they can.
 
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