Grip Docility

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Since when does Paul say we can be justified by the law? You just demonstrated it is impossible yet Paul dpes say the doers of the law are justified.

Here is the context.

Romans 2: 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Christs obedience is imputed upon faith. We “put on Christ” like a robe. That’s in Galatians…
 
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Grip Docility

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So you believe a creation, sin, by a created being, the devil, is too much for God to overcome. That means sin is infinite in power instead of God.
God overcame. That’s Jesus.
 
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Gary K

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We get His life imputed in place of ours… AND… We receive the HS.
And Christ's ability to keep the law. 1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The greek word translated as righteousness is:

*StrongsGreek*]
01343
δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342;
equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

There are two types of righteousness that come from Jesus. Imputed and imparted. Imparted equals sanctification.
 
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Grip Docility

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And Christ's ability to keep the law. 1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The greek word translated as righteousness is:

*StrongsGreek*]
01343
δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342;
equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

There are two types of righteousness that come from Jesus. Imputed and imparted. Imparted equals sanctification.
I am well aware that we are just discussing matters and sharing views, while enjoying each others passion for Jesus and thusly Scripture.

I will give you my tattered old opinion on this matter. I have been in many "Sinless" doctrine debates where people charge carnal obedience for Salvation in Jesus. (I in no way am saying anyone here is teaching and reciting that)... but you know how extremes kind of make things more clear?

Well... I pull the Jesus Move, when the torches and pitchforks come out and ask my brethren and sisters if there is anyone in the room that doesn't have struggles with sin, to this very day. from 19 -99, they all want a subject change. I don't speak as I speak to undermine righteousness, but to instead evacuate my bowls all over the work of Satan.

Jesus said "It is Finished"... and that really meant "Finished". Religion says that Salvation requires "DO"... while Jesus is emphatic that Salvation is "Done".... Religion says Slave.... Jesus says.... son.

I have promised Jesus that I will always take a stance of humility, in reference to my flesh, in Prayers that if anyone is in Love with Jesus, but feels that they cannot obtain Salvation due to their personal circumstances and failures, that my Broken, Weak state, FULL of BOLD FAITH, might encourage them... that they will never relinquish faith.... or perhaps... Place a newborn mustard seed of faith, into our wonderful Lord and Savior.

I hope this makes sense.
 
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Gary K

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I am well aware that we are just discussing matters and sharing views, while enjoying each others passion for Jesus and thusly Scripture.

I will give you my tattered old opinion on this matter. I have been in many "Sinless" doctrine debates where people charge carnal obedience for Salvation in Jesus. (I in no way am saying anyone here is teaching and reciting that)... but you know how extremes kind of make things more clear?

Well... I pull the Jesus Move, when the torches and pitchforks come out and ask my brethren and sisters if there is anyone in the room that doesn't have struggles with sin, to this very day. from 19 -99, they all want a subject change. I don't speak as I speak to undermine righteousness, but to instead evacuate my bowls all over the work of Satan.

Jesus said "It is Finished"... and that really meant "Finished". Religion says that Salvation requires "DO"... while Jesus is emphatic that Salvation is "Done".... Religion says Slave.... Jesus says.... son.

I have promised Jesus that I will always take a stance of humility, in reference to my flesh, in Prayers that if anyone is in Love with Jesus, but feels that they cannot obtain Salvation due to their personal circumstances and failures, that my Broken, Weak state, FULL of BOLD FAITH, might encourage them... that they will never relinquish faith.

I hope this makes sense.
I'm not saying sinless. You're reading that into my comments. Not sinning is not the same thing as sinlessness. I am and always will be a sinner as I have lived the vast majority of my life sinning. I can never change that thus I will never be sinless. But that doesn't mean I have to continue sinning as God is greater than sin. Anyone who doesn't believe that serves a very small God, not the infinite God of the Bible.

God spoke the world into existence and His word still has creative power meaning through His word He can recreate us back into His image. Jesus is the Word and so is scripture. Our temptations won't go away because our sinful flesh still exists and so does the devil. When they are gone we will be sinless.
 
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Grip Docility

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I'm not saying sinless. You're reading that into my comments. Not sinning is not the same thing as sinlessness. I am and always will be a sinner as I have lived the vast majority of my life sinning. I can never change that thus I will never be sinless. But that doesn't mean I have to continue sinning as God is greater than sin. Anyone who doesn't believe that serves a very small God, not the infinite God of the Bible.

God spoke the world into existence and His word still has creative power meaning through His word He can recreate us back into His image. Jesus is the Word and so is scripture. Our temptations won't go away because our sinful flesh still exists and so does the devil. When they are gone we will be sinless.
First... I didn't aim that at you, but was expressing an extreme... I said this: "I in no way am saying anyone here is teaching and reciting that"... I was merely expressing the extreme to enunciate my point.

Now, I Love and respect what you are saying, because it is honest. Remember... a man told Jesus; "Lord, I am a sinful man"... Jesus established that man as a very important witness for Himself. The man is known as "Little Rock" :)

Now, if you obtain a life that has zero willful or hidden internal struggle "sin"... that is awesome.! However... I assure you that ALL Christians have their personal struggles, though not all are honest.

Jesus hasn't failed, if we fail. He's already paid our life debt of sin. That is scriptural fact. I'm not saying you agree or disagree. We WILL be PERFECTED when we get our Shiny new Bodies! Like you, I look forward to that day.

In the meantime, His Power is made manifest within our weakness. I love the Jars of Clay Chapter in the NT! It always fills me with wonder and awe!
 
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guevaraj

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He's already paid our life debt of sin. That is scriptural fact.
Brother, Jesus will not pay for our sins because He has done nothing wrong! It is Satan who ultimately pays for the sins of those who look to Jesus' daily, as our High Priest, to transfer their unwanted sins to Satan as the one responsible for the sins we do not want. Placing our sins on Satan has not yet occurred in the heavenly temple, although the process began in 1844 with the beginning of the judgment of "the house of God".

I watched as thrones were put in place and the Ancient One sat down to judge. His clothing was as white as snow, his hair like purest wool. He sat on a fiery throne with wheels of blazing fire, and a river of fire was pouring out, flowing from his presence. Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10 NLT)​

In the earthly temple, animal sacrifices moved the sins of the people to the temple where they were stored until the end of the year to be removed from the temple on the Day of Atonement.

“Aaron will present his own bull as a sin offering to purify himself and his family, making them right with the LORD. Then he must take the two male goats and present them to the LORD at the entrance of the Tabernacle. He is to cast sacred lots to determine which goat will be reserved as an offering to the LORD and which will carry the sins of the people to the wilderness of Azazel. Aaron will then present as a sin offering the goat chosen by lot for the LORD. The other goat, the scapegoat chosen by lot to be sent away, will be kept alive, standing before the LORD. When it is sent away to Azazel in the wilderness, the people will be purified and made right with the LORD. (Leviticus 16:6-10 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Grip Docility

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Brother, Jesus will not pay for our sins because He has done nothing wrong! It is Satan who ultimately pays for the sins of those who look to Jesus' daily,
Bruh! This is evil incarnate! You have made the Dragon your Savior. Repent... Like as in right NoW!

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin[a] for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
 
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guevaraj

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2 Corinthians 5:21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin[a] for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Brother, that is the first part where sin is removed from the people by Jesus' daily ministry as our High Priest. As in the earthly temple "copy", where the sins of the people were "put" on the "alter" by the "priest" through an animal sacrifice.

“If the people bring a sheep as their sin offering, it must be a female with no defects. They must lay a hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place where burnt offerings are slaughtered. Then the priest will dip his finger in the blood of the sin offering and put it on the horns of the altar for burnt offerings. He will pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. Then he must remove all the sheep’s fat, just as he does with the fat of a sheep presented as a peace offering. He will burn the fat on the altar on top of the special gifts presented to the LORD. Through this process, the priest will purify the people from their sin, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:33-35 NLT)​

You are missing what comes after that first "transfer", which takes place once a year in the earthly temple "copy". The sins collected throughout the year from the people on the altar, they again "transfer" to the live "goat" by the "priest" through an animal sacrifice.

“Then Aaron will come out to purify the altar that stands before the LORD. He will do this by taking some of the blood from the bull and the goat and putting it on each of the horns of the altar. Then he must sprinkle the blood with his finger seven times over the altar. In this way, he will cleanse it from Israel’s defilement and make it holy. “When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place and the Tabernacle and the altar, he must present the live goat. He will lay both of his hands on the goat’s head and confess over it all the wickedness, rebellion, and sins of the people of Israel. In this way, he will transfer the people’s sins to the head of the goat. Then a man specially chosen for the task will drive the goat into the wilderness. As the goat goes into the wilderness, it will carry all the people’s sins upon itself into a desolate land.​
(Leviticus 16:18-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Grip Docility

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Brother, that is the first part where sin is removed from the people by Jesus' daily ministry as our High Priest. As in the earthly temple "copy", where the sins of the people were "put" on the "alter" by the "priest" through an animal sacrifice.

“If the people bring a sheep as their sin offering, it must be a female with no defects. They must lay a hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place where burnt offerings are slaughtered. Then the priest will dip his finger in the blood of the sin offering and put it on the horns of the altar for burnt offerings. He will pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. Then he must remove all the sheep’s fat, just as he does with the fat of a sheep presented as a peace offering. He will burn the fat on the altar on top of the special gifts presented to the LORD. Through this process, the priest will purify the people from their sin, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:33-35 NLT)​

You are missing what comes after that first "transfer", which takes place once a year in the earthly temple "copy". The sins collected throughout the year from the people on the altar, they again "transfer" to the live "goat" by the "priest" through an animal sacrifice.

“Then Aaron will come out to purify the altar that stands before the LORD. He will do this by taking some of the blood from the bull and the goat and putting it on each of the horns of the altar. Then he must sprinkle the blood with his finger seven times over the altar. In this way, he will cleanse it from Israel’s defilement and make it holy. “When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place and the Tabernacle and the altar, he must present the live goat. He will lay both of his hands on the goat’s head and confess over it all the wickedness, rebellion, and sins of the people of Israel. In this way, he will transfer the people’s sins to the head of the goat. Then a man specially chosen for the task will drive the goat into the wilderness. As the goat goes into the wilderness, it will carry all the people’s sins upon itself into a desolate land.​
(Leviticus 16:18-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
You are spouting doctrine that the Adventist church has since the time they realized the implication... rejected!

The One Who Bares your sins for you is your SAVIOR! If you desire to adhere to doctrines of man, I cannot stop you, but the One Who PAID for your SINS is JESUS.
 
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guevaraj

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You are spouting doctrine that the Adventist church has since the time they realized the implication... rejected! The One Who Bares your sins for you is your SAVIOR! If you desire to adhere to doctrines of man, I cannot stop you, but the One Who PAID for your SINS is JESUS.
Brother, Jesus reveals who is responsible for evil in the following passage with the word "father". The devil is responsible for the lies about God's Ten Commandments. Jesus is not responsible for lies about the Ten Commandments. God has made it clear with the story of Hagar that the problem with the Ten Commandments given in Sinai is with the human replacement of God's Ten Commandments when God compares Judaism to Hagar instead of Sarah in God's original plan to give Abraham a son through Sarah.

Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me! Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.” (John 8:42-47 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Brother, Jesus reveals who is responsible for evil in the following passage with the word "father". The devil is responsible for the lies about God's Ten Commandments. Jesus is not responsible for lies about the Ten Commandments. God has made it clear with the story of Hagar that the problem with the Ten Commandments given in Sinai is with the human replacement of God's Ten Commandments when God compares Judaism to Hagar instead of Sarah in God's original plan to give Abraham a son through Sarah.

Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me! Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.” (John 8:42-47 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Please be honest with me. According to your understanding, what will happen to those that don’t follow the 4th commandment, but declare themselves Saved by Jesus?
 
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guevaraj

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Please be honest with me. According to your understanding, what will happen to those that don’t follow the 4th commandment, but declare themselves Saved by Jesus?
Brother, they will "fall" if they disobey the Sabbath like those that died in the desert. God punished them for their disobedience by not allowing them to enter His Sabbath for 40 years, with Manna in the desert being half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem. In the book of Hebrews, the Sabbath kept as the seventh day of the week is corrected from human tradition by telling us that, during the 40 years they kept the Sabbath with Manna, they kept the wrong Sabbath, which does not enter God's rest by being late by half a day when the Sabbath is earlier in Jerusalem than the seventh day of the week. Joshua did not get the Sabbath wrong in Jerusalem, that Jesus kept as our model "Spirit" to do the same as Jesus. Joshua got the days of the week wrong, which makes their human tradition of the Sabbath wrong everywhere beside Jerusalem.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because they will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the days of the week beginning in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)​


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Grip Docility

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Brother, they will "fall" if they disobey the Sabbath like those that died in the desert. God punished them for their disobedience by not allowing them to enter His Sabbath for 40 years, with Manna in the desert being half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem. In the book of Hebrews, the Sabbath kept as the seventh day of the week is corrected from human tradition by telling us that, during the 40 years they kept the Sabbath with Manna, they kept the wrong Sabbath, which does not enter God's rest by being late by half a day when the Sabbath is earlier in Jerusalem than the seventh day of the week. Joshua did not get the Sabbath wrong in Jerusalem, that Jesus kept as our model "Spirit" to do the same as Jesus. Joshua got the days of the week wrong, which makes their human tradition of the Sabbath wrong everywhere beside Jerusalem.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because they will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the days of the week beginning in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)​


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Brother, you would do well to Repent. You need to seek Christ and repent of the confidence you have in your fleshly obedience. I am a mere human being and this is my mere opinion, but you are storing up wrath for yourself, unknowingly. I will no longer answer you on this particular thread.
 
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guevaraj

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Brother, you would do well to Repent. You need to seek Christ and repent of the confidence you have in your fleshly obedience. I am a mere human being and this is my mere opinion, but you are storing up wrath for yourself, unknowingly. I will no longer answer you on this particular thread.
Brother, may God grant you understanding of His word as I would have Him keep me in His truth!

I declare today that I have been faithful. If anyone suffers eternal death, it’s not my fault, for I didn’t shrink from declaring all that God wants you to know. (Acts 20:26-27 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
 
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