The Danger of "Keeping Sabbath."

Gary K

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I would if I had, but I didn't. I have consistently pointed out the dangers of "Keeping" (notice the quotation marks) the Sabbath. I have reiterated them many times. Let no one judge you about a Sabbath day. And you should judge no one about a Sabbath day either, according to scripture.

Our human natures are so defensive about our beliefs that it will jump to conclusions rather than ask clarifying questions..
So, you believe in keeping 9 out of 10 commandments and think it is dangerous to keep the one God started with "remember". The one God said is a sign of His sanctification of His people.

Exodus 31: 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

Sanctification is the imparted righteousness of God. It is Him changing our behavior.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Brother, if you look for the truth in our Bible translations, there is enough redundancy in God's message to find the truth regardless of having to rely on a translation, but if you look for loopholes to hang the lies you want to cling to by twisting the truth of the need to obey God's law, you will find errors in our translations to cling to lies.
Just to be clear, you are accusing me of clinging to lies, correct? Ok, if naked honesty is the rule of the day, then it is you who has found your loopholes.
So, you believe in keeping 9 out of 10 commandments and think it is dangerous to keep the one God started with "remember". The one God said is a sign of His sanctification of His people.
I would need you to show me where I said this, otherwise I can’t comment on it other than to say you are mistaken.
 
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Gary K

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Just to be clear, you are accusing me of clinging to lies, correct? Ok, if naked honesty is the rule of the day, then it is you who has found your loopholes.

I would need you to show me where I said this, otherwise I can’t comment on it other than to say you are mistaken.
When we discussed commandment keeping and showed the behavior of the Jews in Jeremiah's day you said that sanctification needed to happen. When I asked about Sabbath keeping you said you had made your position clear over an extended time. So my assumption is that you still think Sabbath keeping is dangerous.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Exodus 31: 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

Sanctification is the imparted righteousness of God. It is Him changing our behavior.
His righteousness is imputed, not imparted.

Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
 
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Mercy Shown

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When we discussed commandment keeping and showed the behavior of the Jews in Jeremiah's day you said that sanctification needed to happen. When I asked about Sabbath keeping you said you had made your position clear over an extended time. So my assumption is that you still think Sabbath keeping is dangerous.
Why? Do you not understand why I put it in quotes? All law-keeping is dangerous without first being saved by Grace for two reasons. First, an unsaved person will make up their standards and judge themselves as law keepers when they are far from it, for we can't discern s[ritual things until we are born again. Secondly, once we reach our self-set standards, it is food for our pride. We feel spiritually superior even though we will not admit it. Ultimately, we are worse off than the sinner who knows they require a savior.

The Pharisees are a prime example of this.
 
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guevaraj

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His righteousness is imputed, not imparted.
Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Brother, God counts our having "believed" as work to complete our faith without having done any regular work at the temple. This is how the thief on the cross was saved, because his having believed was credited to him as having worked to have faith. This was the experience of David when he was forgiven for his new belief of being worthy of death for committing adultery with Bathsheba without having done the regular work at the temple for his forgiveness. What many think can only happen after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! I say again, what has been assumed as unique to the new covenant David experienced before the new covenant! Way before Jesus' death on the cross, David received an initial act of "righteousness" for having believed, free of the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery! Something everyone thinks only happens after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! David's free "righteousness" experience of getting "righteousness" free of the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of the past sin of adultery took place before Jesus.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

David gained initial forgiveness for his free of regular work "righteousness", having done no regular work at the temple when God counted his having "believed" he was worthy of death for adultery as equivalent to an act of "work" to complete his new faith of being worthy of death for breaking the Seventh Commandment of committing adultery with another man's wife. David gained forgiveness for his past sin of adultery without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple! What many think happens after Jesus, gaining free work credit of an act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple, happened to David before Jesus. David's experience of gaining an initial act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery was before Jesus!

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are credited righteousness (work), not because of their work, but because of their faith/belief (pistis) in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are credited righteousness (work) without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was credited righteousness (work) by God because of his faith/belief (pistis). But how did this happen? Was he credited righteousness (work) only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! (Romans 4:4-10 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Gary K

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Why? Do you not understand why I put it in quotes? All law-keeping is dangerous without first being saved by Grace for two reasons. First, an unsaved person will make up their standards and judge themselves as law keepers when they are far from it, for we can't discern s[ritual things until we are born again. Secondly, once we reach our self-set standards, it is food for our pride. We feel spiritually superior even though we will not admit it. Ultimately, we are worse off than the sinner who knows they require a savior.

The Pharisees are a prime example of this.
The unbeliever already sets his own standards for behavior so what is the increased danger? Self righteousness always kills.
 
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Gary K

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His righteousness is imputed, not imparted.

Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
So even when God Himself says the Sabbath is a sign that He sanctifies us you're going to insist He means imputed righteousness. Sounds an awful lot like rebellion to me when you directly contradict God's own words.
 
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Gary K

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How well is one to “keep” the sabbath? If we are reconciled to God by our good works then why did Jesus have to die?
Here you go again with we cannot keep God's law and there is no sanctification. I've already refuted that position. Current obedience cannot justify past sins. Jesus didn't have to die He chose to so He could justify and sanctify us, you know, save us from, not in, our sins.
 
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Mercy Shown

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The unbeliever already sets his own standards for behavior so what is the increased danger? Self righteousness always kills.
The danger is pride. When we think we keep the law, who told us we did. Jesus preached the sermon on the mount to a group of people who are sure that they kept the law.
 
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Mercy Shown

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So even when God Himself says the Sabbath is a sign that He sanctifies us you're going to insist He means imputed righteousness. Sounds an awful lot like rebellion to me when you directly contradict God's own words.
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

What is it in the above passage that you are having a conflict with? Is the part where it says apart from works?

Does having God’s righteousness imputed to you bother you? Would you rather do it yourself? I am trying to clarify where you stand.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Here you go again with we cannot keep God's law and there is no sanctification. I've already refuted that position. Current obedience cannot justify past sins. Jesus didn't have to die He chose to so He could justify and sanctify us, you know, save us from, not in, our sins.
You really don’t get why I have the word keep in quotes do you?

Can you even explain in detail how you “keep“ the Sabbath?

It’s one thing to offer vagaries such as “keep“ the Sabbath without ever explaining exactly what you mean.

Do you turn off all your lights and shut down your electricity so that you are not buying on the Sabbath? Is it OK to go shopping on the Sabbath?

There are many details in keeping some thing. Even such commands as thou shall not kill requires explanation.

The 10 Commandments says you shall not kill but if someone were about to murder your family and you had a gun would you kill them or would you let them kill your family because you want to obey the 10 Commandments?

Simply telling someone to keep the sabbath without explaining how is like telling somebody to go fly an airplane without giving them flying lessons it’s going to end in disaster.

How do you even know you were keeping the sabbath, perhaps you’re keeping it the way you think you should but is it the way God thinks you should?

If there is no standard then how could you judge me for the way I spend my Saturday versus the way you spend yours?
 
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Gary K

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just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

What is it in the above passage that you are having a conflict with? Is the part where it says apart from works?

Does having God’s righteousness imputed to you bother you? Would you rather do it yourself? I am trying to clarify where you stand.
No imputed righteousness doesn't bother me. I need it every day. Why would you even think that? The problem is you deny sanctification when God clearly says keeping the Sabbath is a sign He sanctifies us. As you dislike the Sabbath Exodus 31: 13 seems as if it is an anathema to you.
 
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Leaf473

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You really don’t get why I have the word keep in quotes do you?

Can you even explain in detail how you “keep“ the Sabbath?

It’s one thing to offer vagaries such as “keep“ the Sabbath without ever explaining exactly what you mean.

Do you turn off all your lights and shut down your electricity so that you are not buying on the Sabbath? Is it OK to go shopping on the Sabbath?

There are many details in keeping some thing. Even such commands as thou shall not kill requires explanation.

The 10 Commandments says you shall not kill but if someone were about to murder your family and you had a gun would you kill them or would you let them kill your family because you want to obey the 10 Commandments?

Simply telling someone to keep the sabbath without explaining how is like telling somebody to go fly an airplane without giving them flying lessons it’s going to end in disaster.

How do you even know you were keeping the sabbath, perhaps you’re keeping it the way you think you should but is it the way God thinks you should?

If there is no standard then how could you judge me for the way I spend my Saturday versus the way you spend yours?
Interesting ideas. Many seventh day observers will drive a car or use the internet on Saturday.
 
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Gary K

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No, just observing that different people have different ideas about what it means to "keep" the Sabbath.

Sounds Pharisaical to me. In Jesus's day the mode of travel was by foot. Today it is by car. And is the internet down on Sabbaths in the normal course of events? If not then the use of it determines it's appropiateness. Is it being use to buy and sell. or to witness?
 
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Gary K

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You really don’t get why I have the word keep in quotes do you?

Can you even explain in detail how you “keep“ the Sabbath?

It’s one thing to offer vagaries such as “keep“ the Sabbath without ever explaining exactly what you mean.

Do you turn off all your lights and shut down your electricity so that you are not buying on the Sabbath? Is it OK to go shopping on the Sabbath?

There are many details in keeping some thing. Even such commands as thou shall not kill requires explanation.

The 10 Commandments says you shall not kill but if someone were about to murder your family and you had a gun would you kill them or would you let them kill your family because you want to obey the 10 Commandments?

Simply telling someone to keep the sabbath without explaining how is like telling somebody to go fly an airplane without giving them flying lessons it’s going to end in disaster.

How do you even know you were keeping the sabbath, perhaps you’re keeping it the way you think you should but is it the way God thinks you should?

If there is no standard then how could you judge me for the way I spend my Saturday versus the way you spend yours?
You ignore the work of the HS.

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Is God trustworthy? Will He keep His word? He teaches us to keep the Sabbath according to His will, Plus scripture gives us instruction on how to keep it.

Jeremiah 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
 
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Leaf473

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Sounds Pharisaical to me. In Jesus's day the mode of travel was by foot. Today it is by car. And is the internet down on Sabbaths in the normal course of events? If not then the use of it determines it's appropiateness. Is it being use to buy and sell. or to witness?
More people using the internet means more people have to be on the job to troubleshoot the inevitable problems.

More people on the road means more people driving tow trucks to take care of the inevitable crashes and breakdowns.

But sure, if it sounds pharisaical, we don't have to talk about it :heart:
 
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guevaraj

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More people using the internet means more people have to be on the job to troubleshoot the inevitable problems. More people on the road means more people driving tow trucks to take care of the inevitable crashes and breakdowns. But sure, if it sounds pharisaical, we don't have to talk about it :heart:
Brother, are you using this argument to not obey the biblical Sabbath and keep Sunday instead? Does a child obey because he trusts in himself to be able to do everything his parents ask of him or does the child obey because he trusts his parents want what is best for him? Those that clearly disobey God's Sabbath are showing they do not trust God to lead them out of sin through His law. Sin is to disobey God and sin leads to death. To not sin is to obey God's law. Those like Abraham who have put their trust in obeying God are saved. Those who disobey God are lost to sin. For example, God knows I obey Him differently from David? Unlike David, I turn to the temple for forgiveness. Jesus has taught me how to get up again and again quickly when I fall until I no longer fall. It is not that I can never fall, but that I know what God expects from me when I fall, which David failed to do by not going to the temple. God expects me to ask for forgiveness in prayer to get up again and again until I no longer fall. If David had gone to the temple, he would have been saved from his sin, but because he did not go to the temple, David was lost to sin, until he gained a new faith through the prophet Nathan. David got forgiveness free of the works of the temple when he was forgiven for his new belief of being worthy of death for committing adultery with Bathsheba without having done the regular work at the temple for his forgiveness. What many think can only happen after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! I say again, what has been assumed as unique to the new covenant David experienced before the new covenant! Way before Jesus' death on the cross, David received "righteousness" for having believed, free of the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery! Something everyone thinks only happens after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! David's free "righteousness" experience of getting "righteousness" free of the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of the past sin of adultery took place before Jesus.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

David gained initial forgiveness for his free of regular work "righteousness", having done no regular work at the temple when God counted his having "believed" he was worthy of death for adultery as equivalent to an act of "work" to complete his new faith of being worthy of death for breaking the Seventh Commandment of committing adultery with another man's wife. David gained forgiveness for his past sin of adultery without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple! What many think happens after Jesus, gaining free work credit of an act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple, happened to David before Jesus. David's experience of gaining an initial act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery was before Jesus!

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are credited righteousness (work), not because of their work, but because of their faith/belief (pistis) in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are credited righteousness (work) without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was credited righteousness (work) by God because of his faith/belief (pistis). But how did this happen? Was he credited righteousness (work) only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! (Romans 4:4-10 NLT fixed)​

Here are God's instructions for "keeping the Sabbath". We are warned that if we disobey the Sabbath we will "fall" like those who died in the desert.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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