How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[razzelflabben]

Nope.

nope you won't adhere to the two requests or nope it doesn't mean that you won't? Or maybe nope means something else...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

nope you won't adhere to the two requests or nope it doesn't mean that you won't? Or maybe nope means something else...

"Nope" to your previous question.

 

[razzelflabben]

Because of the past history of posts on this thread, I need you to tell me word for word that you are willing to
1. that you are willing to NOT reinvent what I said to suit some argument you want to make or think I would say
2. that when miscommunication happens you will not ignore corrections and clarifications to suit your agenda...

Because of the history on this thread, I will not try again unless you accept these terms, nor will I talk to anyone that has been a problem until they agree to these terms.

 

[razzelflabben]

Since we are still waiting on any of the posters in question to step forward and agree to refrain from flaming as per the forum rules...that is, purpose to stir anger, let me say this about accusations about my character and witness.

It is really easy when you want to prove that someone is wrong to make anything sound like it is a horrible thing. Look at the accusations raised against Christ Himself. The one that the believer is told to strive to be like.

My husband and I were in a situation once where we were asked what a believer of the Word would do if they had an issue against a "brother". We told this person to follow Matt. 18 was the best advice we could give. Well, eventually the issue was dealt with, it was not done according to Matt. 18, we had no other involvement in the situation than to say, scripture says...

Well, after that, the situation with the person that was confronted decided to stir the pot and cause problems and needed someone to blame, so he started spreading rumors, gossip, and slanderous accusations against us and as I said, all we did was answer a question asked of us as to how scripture wants us to answer a specific situation. Didn't even say if we agreed or not, just, "scripture says..."

The end result is that all kinds of terrible accusations were made and believed about us and we held our tongue and that didn't help our "witness". Just like here, speaking out against bully type behavior results in accusations of being a poor witness. As Christ Himself found out, when people are determined to prove you to be the problem, nothing you say or do will be considered "good witness" In fact, Look what scripture tells us Jesus Himself said, ""If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18, His words not mine. He goes on to say, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Time and time again in this thread I have shown where the accusations levied against me were false and actually applied to the posters in question. Time and time again, I answered what scripture says and was ridiculed and attacked because it wasn't the answer that some wanted me to give. I am far from perfect, but I wanted to encourage everyone on this thread who has tried to be above reproach, who have tried to have civil discussion and rather than being able to, have been slandered and mocked and further treated unkindly. It is just evidence of what Jesus tells us in scripture will happen as the result of no longer being in this world. You don't have to just sit back and allow poor behavior, you can stand up against it, cause in the end of the matter, no matter what you say or do, those who want to hate the truth of God will accuse you of all kinds of evil, all you really have to worry about is pleasing God and allow them to their delusions and anger.

 

[bhsmte]

Since we are still waiting on any of the posters in question to step forward and agree to refrain from flaming as per the forum rules...that is, purpose to stir anger, let me say this about accusations about my character and witness.

It is really easy when you want to prove that someone is wrong to make anything sound like it is a horrible thing. Look at the accusations raised against Christ Himself. The one that the believer is told to strive to be like.

My husband and I were in a situation once where we were asked what a believer of the Word would do if they had an issue against a "brother". We told this person to follow Matt. 18 was the best advice we could give. Well, eventually the issue was dealt with, it was not done according to Matt. 18, we had no other involvement in the situation than to say, scripture says...

Well, after that, the situation with the person that was confronted decided to stir the pot and cause problems and needed someone to blame, so he started spreading rumors, gossip, and slanderous accusations against us and as I said, all we did was answer a question asked of us as to how scripture wants us to answer a specific situation. Didn't even say if we agreed or not, just, "scripture says..."

The end result is that all kinds of terrible accusations were made and believed about us and we held our tongue and that didn't help our "witness". Just like here, speaking out against bully type behavior results in accusations of being a poor witness. As Christ Himself found out, when people are determined to prove you to be the problem, nothing you say or do will be considered "good witness" In fact, Look what scripture tells us Jesus Himself said, ""If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18, His words not mine. He goes on to say, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Time and time again in this thread I have shown where the accusations levied against me were false and actually applied to the posters in question. Time and time again, I answered what scripture says and was ridiculed and attacked because it wasn't the answer that some wanted me to give. I am far from perfect, but I wanted to encourage everyone on this thread who has tried to be above reproach, who have tried to have civil discussion and rather than being able to, have been slandered and mocked and further treated unkindly. It is just evidence of what Jesus tells us in scripture will happen as the result of no longer being in this world. You don't have to just sit back and allow poor behavior, you can stand up against it, cause in the end of the matter, no matter what you say or do, those who want to hate the truth of God will accuse you of all kinds of evil, all you really have to worry about is pleasing God and allow them to their delusions and anger.

At this point, it appears you are mostly talking to yourself.

 

[razzelflabben]

At this point, it appears you are mostly talking to yourself.

so be it...it is something that needed said and since I was offered a redo and my only requirement was that you all follow the forum rules of not flaming by adhering to the request to
1. not reinvent peoples arguments into something they didn't say and
2. accept corrections and clarifications when they are offered, and none of you all are willing to accept those terms, it says a lot about the truthfulness of what I am saying. You know, evidence....

But is what is most curious of all is why if I am talking to myself, you are responding? Wouldn't the evidence of this post suggest that at least one other person is still here? Still reading at least enough to know I made a post? Hum?????? Follow the evidence as we talked about on the OP topic and tell me what the evidence suggests is truth and what is delusion? Not your whim or belief but the evidence...

 

[devolved]

Since we are still waiting on any of the posters in question to step forward and agree to refrain from flaming as per the forum rules...that is, purpose to stir anger, let me say this about accusations about my character and witness.

It is really easy when you want to prove that someone is wrong to make anything sound like it is a horrible thing. Look at the accusations raised against Christ Himself. The one that the believer is told to strive to be like.

My husband and I were in a situation once where we were asked what a believer of the Word would do if they had an issue against a "brother". We told this person to follow Matt. 18 was the best advice we could give. Well, eventually the issue was dealt with, it was not done according to Matt. 18, we had no other involvement in the situation than to say, scripture says...

Well, after that, the situation with the person that was confronted decided to stir the pot and cause problems and needed someone to blame, so he started spreading rumors, gossip, and slanderous accusations against us and as I said, all we did was answer a question asked of us as to how scripture wants us to answer a specific situation. Didn't even say if we agreed or not, just, "scripture says..."

The end result is that all kinds of terrible accusations were made and believed about us and we held our tongue and that didn't help our "witness". Just like here, speaking out against bully type behavior results in accusations of being a poor witness. As Christ Himself found out, when people are determined to prove you to be the problem, nothing you say or do will be considered "good witness" In fact, Look what scripture tells us Jesus Himself said, ""If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18, His words not mine. He goes on to say, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Time and time again in this thread I have shown where the accusations levied against me were false and actually applied to the posters in question. Time and time again, I answered what scripture says and was ridiculed and attacked because it wasn't the answer that some wanted me to give. I am far from perfect, but I wanted to encourage everyone on this thread who has tried to be above reproach, who have tried to have civil discussion and rather than being able to, have been slandered and mocked and further treated unkindly. It is just evidence of what Jesus tells us in scripture will happen as the result of no longer being in this world. You don't have to just sit back and allow poor behavior, you can stand up against it, cause in the end of the matter, no matter what you say or do, those who want to hate the truth of God will accuse you of all kinds of evil, all you really have to worry about is pleasing God and allow them to their delusions and anger.

I guess we can take a different approach.

1) Do you approach this subject with a 100% certainty that you are right, or is there any room for demonstrating otherwise? I'm assuming that there is.

2) In scope of what you believe, what would have to be specifically demonstrated in order for you to accept that you are wrong about your belief?

 

[razzelflabben]

I guess we can take a different approach.

1) Do you approach this subject with a 100% certainty that you are right, or is there any room for demonstrating otherwise? I'm assuming that there is.

hum...since I asked what the evidence suggested, the word suggest would seem to mean that there is no certainty, wouldn't it? thus asking this question seems to paint you as someone who is just being difficult after you were asked if you were willing to follow the two requests given as they pertain to the forum rules and you have not said that you would. So more evidence that suggests you are having problems...

2) In scope of what you believe, what would have to be specifically demonstrated in order for you to accept that you are wrong about your belief?

some of the posters here that have been difficult posting that they are willing to abide by the requests that they follow forum rules by not reinventing arguments and accept corrections and clarification when given....just like I said. Seems to me that when I directly state what would change my mind, it's a decent bet that is what would change my mind, at least on that idea. Of course it would take you all following through not just making a claim then falling back into your old patterns.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Since we are still waiting on any of the posters in question to step forward and agree to refrain from flaming as per the forum rules...that is, purpose to stir anger, let me say this about accusations about my character and witness.

It is really easy when you want to prove that someone is wrong to make anything sound like it is a horrible thing. Look at the accusations raised against Christ Himself. The one that the believer is told to strive to be like.

My husband and I were in a situation once where we were asked what a believer of the Word would do if they had an issue against a "brother". We told this person to follow Matt. 18 was the best advice we could give. Well, eventually the issue was dealt with, it was not done according to Matt. 18, we had no other involvement in the situation than to say, scripture says...

Well, after that, the situation with the person that was confronted decided to stir the pot and cause problems and needed someone to blame, so he started spreading rumors, gossip, and slanderous accusations against us and as I said, all we did was answer a question asked of us as to how scripture wants us to answer a specific situation. Didn't even say if we agreed or not, just, "scripture says..."

The end result is that all kinds of terrible accusations were made and believed about us and we held our tongue and that didn't help our "witness". Just like here, speaking out against bully type behavior results in accusations of being a poor witness. As Christ Himself found out, when people are determined to prove you to be the problem, nothing you say or do will be considered "good witness" In fact, Look what scripture tells us Jesus Himself said, ""If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18, His words not mine. He goes on to say, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Time and time again in this thread I have shown where the accusations levied against me were false and actually applied to the posters in question. Time and time again, I answered what scripture says and was ridiculed and attacked because it wasn't the answer that some wanted me to give. I am far from perfect, but I wanted to encourage everyone on this thread who has tried to be above reproach, who have tried to have civil discussion and rather than being able to, have been slandered and mocked and further treated unkindly. It is just evidence of what Jesus tells us in scripture will happen as the result of no longer being in this world. You don't have to just sit back and allow poor behavior, you can stand up against it, cause in the end of the matter, no matter what you say or do, those who want to hate the truth of God will accuse you of all kinds of evil, all you really have to worry about is pleasing God and allow them to their delusions and anger.

I do believe that everyone here has pointed out your bad behavior and the reasons behind it.

Now, it seems as though you need to either just get on with the discussion or continue and have no one to talk to...

 

[razzelflabben]

I do believe that everyone here has pointed out your bad behavior and the reasons behind it.

Now, it seems as though you need to either just get on with the discussion or continue and have no one to talk to...

still waiting for those that have been insisting on reinventing arguments and refusing to accept corrections and clarification of peoples ideas to agree to only addressing ideas and opinions that the poster expresses and accepting any communication errors as that....I wonder what it could mean that no one is willing to accept these two requests that are consistent with forum rules....hum...what could that possibly mean?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

still waiting for those that have been insisting on reinventing arguments and refusing to accept corrections and clarification of peoples ideas to agree to only addressing ideas and opinions that the poster expresses and accepting any communication errors as that....I wonder what it could mean that no one is willing to accept these two requests that are consistent with forum rules....hum...what could that possibly mean?

In my case it means that I've lost confidence that you won't falsely cry foul at every statement I make instead of actually discussing my position. Which so far has been my impression of our discussion.

Devolved seems willing to try though.

 

[razzelflabben]

In my case it means that I've lost confidence that you won't falsely cry foul at every statement I make instead of actually discussing my position. Which so far has been my impression of our discussion.

Devolved seems willing to try though.

Then state that you will abide by my requests and as long as you do, I will abide by not calling you out on reinventions and ignoring corrections and clarification due to poor communication....consider it a covenant, as long as you adhere to the requests I put forth, I will adhere to not calling foul when you present an argument that doesn't violate the agreement. It really is that simple. I have gotten along with many people here who have treated me and my ideas with respect, follow the same guidelines and we will get along great. And just for the record, I have strongly disagreed with some of them and we still got along.

So, if you agree, state it clearly for everyone here to see so that you can be held accountable to your claims.

 

[devolved]

some of the posters here that have been difficult posting that they are willing to abide by the requests that they follow forum rules by not reinventing arguments and accept corrections and clarification when given....just like I said. Seems to me that when I directly state what would change my mind, it's a decent bet that is what would change my mind, at least on that idea. Of course it would take you all following through not just making a claim then falling back into your old patterns.

The problem is that when I do so, you once again resort to claims that I misrepresent your views and that you didn't say what you've said, or that I didn't get the context right.

Are you going to keep saying "I've already said it, go look for it in the earlier posts" all day? I thought I've asked a simple question. If you are not willing to participate in discussion unless someone meets your standards, then great . Have fun discussing with someone else.

 

[razzelflabben]

The problem is that when I do so, you once again resort to claims that I misrepresent your views and that you didn't say what you've said, or that I didn't get the context right.

you can't make that claim until you try it and see.

Are you going to keep saying "I've already said it, go look for it in the earlier posts" all day? I thought I've asked a simple question. If you are not willing to participate in discussion unless someone meets your standards, then great . Have fun discussing with someone else.

I thought the idea was to start the discussion from scratch? Why would we say, already been discussed if we are pretending nothing was said yet? Like I said, all I am asking for is that you all abide by forum rules by refraining from flaming me and others by reinventing what was said and dismissing corrections and clarifications when they are offered. It's really a simple request, play by the intent of the rules. If you do that, we will get along just fine. If you don't, we won't get along. I am a really easy going person who gets along with anyone who is being reasonable. I even give you all on the forum 3 chances to understand what I am really saying before even considering that you might be misrepresenting on purpose.

The real question however, is why none of you all will simply agree to the request to refrain from flaming by not reinventing what posters say and accepting any corrections or clarifications they offer in an attempt to communicate effectively. this shouldn't be hard especially since you supposedly agreed to follow the rules when you signed up to participate in the forums. Just accept publicly accept the request and we move on...not hard at all. In fact, very simple. Why are you dragging your feet so hard on the issue, I already agreed to not call foul as long as you held up your end of the deal.

 

[razzelflabben]

It seems very odd to me that people who claim to be innocent, people who want us to believe that they are above reproach, without fault, not the one's who are being rude and inflammatory are so unwilling to abide by very simple, courteous rules of discussion as they have been asked to do. Does anyone else find this odd from people who we are to presume are innocent of all wrong doing in this thread?

As the OP question asks us to explore the notion of how to know if what I believe is truth or delusion, the only answer we received was to test the notion and see where the evidence takes us. Admittedly, this is not an exact science since it deals with beliefs, but it would also seem that all beliefs are some how rooted in our experiences and empirical world somewhere along the way. And so, it would seem that the conclusion of the matter (since no one seems willing to further discussion by simple, courteous rules) is that the best we can do, is test the theories that lead to our beliefs and allow the evidence to tell us what the most likely conclusion should be and in that put our trust.

May every seeker here discover truth wherever it might lay and may everyone here discover one day that exploring and seeking truth is far better than simply assuming to know it.

 

[lesliedellow]

Most of us here know objective truth. It's you who seem hopelessly confused by the nature of reality.

You know how you have been programmed to perceive the external world, and that's it. You think you see a solid lump of something there, and you call it a wall. There is a theory which says that solid lump of something is 99.9999999999999% empty space. That theory might be right or wrong. There is no way you can know whether that theory is right or wrong. The most you can say is that nothing has yet happened to cast doubt on it.

 

[Blondepudding]

First, I like the pretty colors that are on peoples names from time to time. Green is obviously $upporter. Blue is the staff member. Red too. Purple is nice. How do we get a color? Besides being on staff and $? I'd like gold. That would go well with my avatar. Something different from black all the time. OK, now that that's there.

How does one distinguish the two? Belief. Delusion. There isn't a difference save for the level of commitment someone puts into either side of what is uniquely the imagination. That of the believer or the deluded. Belief is delusion , delusion is belief.

 

[razzelflabben]

First, I like the pretty colors that are on peoples names from time to time. Green is obviously $upporter. Blue is the staff member. Red too. Purple is nice. How do we get a color? Besides being on staff and $? I'd like gold. That would go well with my avatar. Something different from black all the time. OK, now that that's there.

How does one distinguish the two? Belief. Delusion. There isn't a difference save for the level of commitment someone puts into either side of what is uniquely the imagination. That of the believer or the deluded. Belief is delusion , delusion is belief.

so, are you suggesting there is no way to know the difference? Not even testing?

Our dog just died, how do we know that he died? Or are we destined to just believe he is dead and nothing more? Admittedly, not all beliefs are easy to test, but I'm not sure I can go along with the notion that there is no way to know if that is what you are suggesting.

 

[razzelflabben]

You know how you have been programmed to perceive the external world, and that's it. You think you see a solid lump of something there, and you call it a wall. There is a theory which says that solid lump of something is 99.9999999999999% empty space. That theory might be right or wrong. There is no way you can know whether that theory is right or wrong. The most you can say is that nothing has yet happened to cast doubt on it.

Okay, I just want to clarify, it sounds like you are suggesting that until something causes you to doubt, then it's okay to believe it. What do we do with Thomas then? You know, the doubter?

 

[Blondepudding]

so, are you suggesting there is no way to know the difference? Not even testing?

Our dog just died, how do we know that he died? Or are we destined to just believe he is dead and nothing more? Admittedly, not all beliefs are easy to test, but I'm not sure I can go along with the notion that there is no way to know if that is what you are suggesting.

Sorry to read about your dog.

You were there to see the dog die? That's not belief. That's a witnessed fact.