How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

ToddNotTodd

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how odd....I just did a web search to try to get to the bottom of this and found many people use the word stupid and it is not taken as offensive even when using it to describe people who are behaving in a stupid manner not just the argument that is being engaged in like I did....I'll look up insane too...when I look up the same for insane, as this is an insane argument for us to have, I get crazy as a preferred word...so you are trying to tell me that if I said stupid, as I did and you are upset about, it would not be rude even though you said it was, or if I said, that argument was crazy, that would be okay, but if I say that argument is insane it is offensive and if I say that argument is stupid even though the internet primarily sees it as okay, it's rude because you say it is?

Interesting, can you please provide a list of things that are rude and what is not so that we can post them on the internet at the authoritative rules for what is and is not rude. Too many people seem to disagree with you.

You seem to have this need to "win".

I'm willing to let this drop, since clearly where I'm from you're considered rude, and other non-theists here have commented on it as well. Where you're from it's apparently acceptable.

And I've said more than once it doesn't matter what we think, if someone reports one of your posts, it's up to the moderators to determine if you've broken a rule or not.

I will leave you with this though. Using the tactics that you do is detrimental to having any kind of worthwhile discussion. I'm not the first to have said this to you. And honestly I don't think you're doing your religion any favors. I've pointed to posts like yours in the past to people unsure of their beliefs as examples of how some Christians behave.

I'll never understand why some theists here behave the way they do knowing that they're doing more harm than good...
 
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Chriliman

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It takes humility to know when you're not getting through to someone and it's time to walk away. The reason this is a humble thing to do is because you must admit your tactics are not causing change in their mind and you yourself are no longer learning anything of value from them. The only reason you're still arguing is because you're too proud to walk away.

This is an observation about human interaction in general as well as on this particular thread, but not intended to be directed at any specific individual here because I think we are all guilty of this behavior at times and it's good to be aware of it so that we can choose to be humble instead.

Lets remember that God opposes the proud and exalts the humble.
 
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razzelflabben

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You seem to have this need to "win".

I'm willing to let this drop, since clearly where I'm from you're considered rude, and other non-theists here have commented on it as well. Where you're from it's apparently acceptable.

And I've said more than once it doesn't matter what we think, if someone reports one of your posts, it's up to the moderators to determine if you've broken a rule or not.

I will leave you with this though. Using the tactics that you do is detrimental to having any kind of worthwhile discussion. I'm not the first to have said this to you. And honestly I don't think you're doing your religion any favors. I've pointed to posts like yours in the past to people unsure of their beliefs as examples of how some Christians behave.

I'll never understand why some theists here behave the way they do knowing that they're doing more harm than good...
I just want to know how to improve my communication skills that you all say is the problem...so if we can't use the word insane or the word stupid to describe an argument, I'm sure that dumb would also be assumed to be rude...what word would you use? So, help me improve my communication skills and tell me what word would not be rude to express the idea that the argument happening would be a dumb, stupid, insane argument to have?
 
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devolved

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It appears that the vast majority of the world thinks that some arguments are just stupid and insane and that is just how it is. I can't find a single source that even suggests much less claims that saying so is rude.

It's not merely about calling some arguments insane, which is generally not advisable in intelligent conversations when granting some view a due respect.

I personally have no problem with that part, as much as I see the "high horsery" of all "duhs","15 year old son" references that get it and not me, and "geeshes" and "lol" unnecessarily inflammatory.

Why not just stick to the arguments? Calling something insane doesn't make it so. Showing that something is insane is much more classy IMO.

Otherwise, it's just a veiled ab-hominem, which I generally would ignore anyway.

I don't know about calling the argument insane, but "duh" would probably be considered rude in more sophisticated settings :). Not in a sense of offensive, but in a sense of unnecessary and "unpolished" in terms of the communication mode.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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It takes humility to know when you're not getting through to someone and it's time to walk away. The reason this is a humble thing to do is because you must admit your tactics are not causing change in their mind and you yourself are no longer learning anything of value from them. The only reason you're still arguing is because you're too proud to walk away.

This is an observation about human interaction in general as well as on this particular thread, but not intended to be directed at any specific individual here because I think we are all guilty of this behavior at times and it's good to be aware of it so that we can choose to be humble instead.

Lets remember that God opposes the proud and exalts the humble.

I agree.

Well, not the part of about God. The rest of it. :sorry:
 
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razzelflabben

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It takes humility to know when you're not getting through to someone and it's time to walk away. The reason this is a humble thing to do is because you must admit your tactics are not causing change in their mind and you yourself are no longer learning anything of value from them. The only reason you're still arguing is because you're too proud to walk away.
and yet, I have repeatedly ask people here to show me a better way to communicate and all I get is admissions that they themselves are being rude by assuming my arguments are the usual even though they aren't and that you are above the forum rules as we have repeatedly seen. Yes, both things were confessed by you all. So, if you are right and I am wrong, why do you refuse to show a better way and why confess to purposed poor behavior?
This is an observation about human interaction in general as well as on this particular thread, but not intended to be directed at any specific individual here because I think we are all guilty of this behavior at times and it's good to be aware of it so that we can choose to be humble instead.

Lets remember that God opposes the proud and exalts the humble.
I have never said I could not do better, I even took responsibility for things that were not my fault, but when people post vial things then boast of being above the rules and insist that they are justified to behave poorly because others say X even though I say Y I am not worthy of being heard unless of course I say X...that is not a pride issue, it goes way beyond that and in order to actually love people who are that rude and offensive, it is important to correct them in Love. It is not okay to say, I know that you said Y but because that isn't the normal answer we are going to insist you said X and then mock you for a belief you don't have and then accuse you of being rude. Even Christ turned over the tables of the money changers and called people out of poor behavior.

I was at least humble enough to say, sure maybe I am the problem, show me a better way. Instead I got more insults and false accusations made against my character. How humble is humble in your opinion? Is it humble to accept responsibility even if you know the fault is not yours? Is it humble to say, believe whatever you want you are misrepresenting my opinions yet again and move on? Is it humble to say, "show me where I can improve" only have false accusations levied against you yet again? What is humility? Please use some specifics because all the above have happened in this thread.
 
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razzelflabben

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It's not merely about calling some arguments insane, which is generally not advisable in intelligent conversations when granting some view a due respect.

I personally have no problem with that part, as much as I see the "high horsery" of all "duhs","15 year old son" references that get it and not me, and "geeshes" and "lol" unnecessarily inflammatory.

Why not just stick to the arguments? Calling something insane doesn't make it so. Showing that something is insane is much more classy IMO.
hum....like the endlessly patient corrections of claims I have made that were ignored, is that what you are referring to as classy? or would classy in your opinion be the endless reinvention and false accusations you and a few other posters insist on be considered classy in your opinion? I just want to know if we agree or disagree on what is classy.
Otherwise, it's just a veiled ab-hominem, which I generally would ignore anyway.

I don't know about calling the argument insane, but "duh" would probably be considered rude in more sophisticated settings :). Not in a sense of offensive, but in a sense of unnecessary and "unpolished" in terms of the communication mode.
maybe, but then again, what word or phrase or sound would convey the emotion that I just said that exact same thing and you said you disagreed with me by repeating what I said as truth that you believe? What is the better way of communicating that emotion of....head palm, duh?
 
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devolved

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hum....like the endlessly patient corrections of claims I have made that were ignored, is that what you are referring to as classy? or would classy in your opinion be the endless reinvention and false accusations you and a few other posters insist on be considered classy in your opinion? I just want to know if we agree or disagree on what is classy.

And I've likewise made an endless replies to these corrections attempting to show you where you are going wrong, and these remain undressed or unanswered, because you go straight for the assumption that I'm somehow misrepresenting your point of view, and I don't.

I understand what you methodology is, and I merely offer the criticism of the flaw that I observe:

You can't approach research with nested presuppositions without demonstrating that these are valid first.

I've actually shown you what these are specifically.

maybe, but then again, what word or phrase or sound would convey the emotion that I just said that exact same thing and you said you disagreed with me by repeating what I said as truth that you believe? What is the better way of communicating that emotion of....head palm, duh?

There's no need to inject emotion into these discussions, especially if these emotional expletives convey intellectual "high-horsery". All I can do is to attempt to show you where you may be wrong. All you can do is exactly the same thing.

When you inject all of the "duh" you assume the tone of a "know it all" who is pointing out something obvious and other people just don't get it. It's unnecessary. Just explain the argument, and be persistent about your points. Otherwise, you are merely inflaming the rhetoric unnecessarily.

For example if I've added something to the likes of "I'm half your age and I get it, geesh" to the above. That would be an example of unnecessarily inflammatory comment that doesn't really address anything relevant to the argument. It's a form of veiled ad hominess, and you seem to do that quite a bit.
 
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Chriliman

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and yet, I have repeatedly ask people here to show me a better way to communicate and all I get is admissions that they themselves are being rude by assuming my arguments are the usual even though they aren't and that you are above the forum rules as we have repeatedly seen. Yes, both things were confessed by you all. So, if you are right and I am wrong, why do you refuse to show a better way and why confess to purposed poor behavior? I have never said I could not do better, I even took responsibility for things that were not my fault, but when people post vial things then boast of being above the rules and insist that they are justified to behave poorly because others say X even though I say Y I am not worthy of being heard unless of course I say X...that is not a pride issue, it goes way beyond that and in order to actually love people who are that rude and offensive, it is important to correct them in Love. It is not okay to say, I know that you said Y but because that isn't the normal answer we are going to insist you said X and then mock you for a belief you don't have and then accuse you of being rude. Even Christ turned over the tables of the money changers and called people out of poor behavior.

I was at least humble enough to say, sure maybe I am the problem, show me a better way. Instead I got more insults and false accusations made against my character. How humble is humble in your opinion? Is it humble to accept responsibility even if you know the fault is not yours? Is it humble to say, believe whatever you want you are misrepresenting my opinions yet again and move on? Is it humble to say, "show me where I can improve" only have false accusations levied against you yet again? What is humility? Please use some specifics because all the above have happened in this thread.

An atheist cannot show you a better way because all they can do is claim that you're wrong and drag you into an endless argument. Rise above it and seek the real truth, which you and I both know is Jesus. Even Jesus had to seek solace and pray to God because of the burdens of this world and it was often to show us how we should pray to God.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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An atheist cannot show you a better way because all they can do is claim that you're wrong and drag you into an endless argument. Rise above it and seek the real truth, which you and I both know is Jesus. Even Jesus had to seek solace and pray to God because of the burdens of this world and it was often to show us how we should pray to God.

Hey now...

And here I was all trying to be agreeable, and here you go being divisive...
 
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razzelflabben

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And I've likewise made an endless replies to these corrections attempting to show you where you are going wrong, and these remain undressed or unanswered, because you go straight for the assumption that I'm somehow misrepresenting your point of view, and I don't.
now I am being accused of not addressing issues and questions when I tell you that you are saying the exact same thing I did but you refuse to accept it....interesting claim...so how does that work in a non rude setting? I answer every question, show you that I said the same thing you said and that we agree on, but you say, no, that isn't what you said, I again show you that I did say it and it is what I intended even if you read it wrong and I am not experiencing you being rude when you accuse me otherwise.

Since we are talking about coming from different walks of life and how that affects what we think is rude. where I come from, false accusations of another person is rude. Ignoring them when they tell you and show you you got what they said wrong is also rude. I'm curious why you don't see false accusations rude? Why do you think it is not rude to ignore someone when they tell you that you didn't get what they were saying and then just dismiss their opinions and feelings as the definition of rude tells us that is what rude is? Teach me...I'm willing...what makes your behavior that fits the definition of rude not rude but me using a word or sound to express my feelings is rude?
I understand what you methodology is, and I merely offer the criticism of the flaw that I observe:

You can't approach research with nested presuppositions without demonstrating that these are valid first.
and yet I not only said the same thing eons ago but never said anything else, nor did I ever show that I was believing otherwise and when I corrected you, you ignored me to insist that you knew my opinions and ideas better than I know them myself. You know a total disregard for my opinions and feelings that is the mark of rude behavior according to the definition. So, I still need you to show me how disregarding my ideas, opinions, etc. is not rude behavior but saying duh or stupid in relation to an argument not a poster is somehow rude. I'm missing the connection you are making to what is and is not rude somewhere along the way. If I figure out how disrespect and reinvention is not rude but duh is, maybe I will figure out how to get you to understand that this is not my claim thus not something I would be able to or should even attempt to defend as if it is.
I've actually shown you what these are specifically.



There's no need to inject emotion into these discussions, especially if these emotional expletives convey intellectual "high-horsery". All I can do is to attempt to show you where you may be wrong. All you can do is exactly the same thing.
well, after all these days and posts of explaining to you that you are claiming I believe something I do not, and then turn around and tell me that the ideas I do support and believe are true it's the ones I don't support that are wrong, I get a bit...frustrated. Not mad, not angry, not hostile, not high horsery, just frustrated enough to say, well duh...how horrible. Seriously, nothing in that duh resembles the definition for rude and yet you are accusing me of being rude for using it. All the while this entire post fits the definition of rude and you refuse to accept it as rude. this is why I need you to explain how that which fits a definition is not an example of the word or idea that it fits while something that doesn't fit the definition is.
When you inject all of the "duh" you assume the tone of a "know it all" who is pointing out something obvious and other people just don't get it. It's unnecessary. Just explain the argument, and be persistent about your points. Otherwise, you are merely inflaming the rhetoric unnecessarily.
not an know it all, just a, dude, that is what I just said, where were you? Where I come from, if you repeat a person without adding something new, challenging them, or otherwise acknowledging that you are just repeating them for effect, you deserve a "duh, I just said that" especially if you try to present the idea as somehow new and unique to the discussion as you did. Nothing rude about it around here, rather just a, "are you kidding me" moment.
For example if I've added something to the likes of "I'm half your age and I get it, geesh" to the above. That would be an example of unnecessarily inflammatory comment that doesn't really address anything relevant to the argument. It's a form of veiled ad hominess, and you seem to do that quite a bit.
Hum...so now, you are suggesting that adding something to the discussion is inflammatory if it is not pertinent to the discussion at hand but repeating what someone said as if they never said it is not inflammatory? Interesting, I am learning something new all the time. I asked my husband and son if they heard of these arguments for what is and is not inflammatory and rude and it's all new to them too. Neither of them have heard such a thing in school, work, etc. In fact, where we live, if you repeat someone as if it is a new idea you just had when it is just a repeat of what someone else has said many times over, you would get a head palm along with a duh or geesh or something similar. But you are telling me that is rude, but it is not rude to purposefully misrepresent someone and insult their ideas and opinions by ignoring them. Very interesting. We need a rewrite of the forum rules on what flaming is....can I make a formal request now that you are starting to give us your version of the rules?
 
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razzelflabben

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An atheist cannot show you a better way because all they can do is claim that you're wrong and drag you into an endless argument. Rise above it and seek the real truth, which you and I both know is Jesus. Even Jesus had to seek solace and pray to God because of the burdens of this world and it was often to show us how we should pray to God.
amen...
quick story...things around here have been difficult to say the least. I needed a break and saw a discussion on the philosophy boards that I could sink my teeth into as a distraction. So I entered the discussion and all I found was more insults and non sense that I wanted to escape for a few moment. You know, I thrive on challenge and thought this would be the place to get it. Even got excited to see some atheists posting, but I was sadly disappointed and should have known better than to expect anyone to simply have a rational discussion without all the emotional baggage and lies we are told today are okay as long as we are making an argument we think is wise in our own eyes.

In fact, I was expecting to have some changes to my opinions from this discussion. Instead, I have become more convinced that I am right with the nerves I apparently hit from semi thought out ideas that no one was willing to challenge without first changing the argument into something I am opposed to and then arguing that.

I will try to remember the next time I want a good discussion to avoid anything that might take my mind off things here and challenge my ideas and just ignore the very reason why so many people come to the forum to begin with. For good discussion.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I will try to remember the next time I want a good discussion to avoid anything that might take my mind off things here and challenge my ideas and just ignore the very reason why so many people come to the forum to begin with. For good discussion.

Are you just incapable of responding without being insulting? Because you're doing it again...
 
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razzelflabben

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Are you just incapable of responding without being insulting? Because you're doing it again...
okay, what is inflammatory about this? I came here for a good discussion all I got was reinvention of my ideas and opinions and when you all were corrected I was ignored as if I didn't matter. I can get that anywhere, look at the incident I spoke of with the transgender family member. It's similar in nature. Say whatever you want about a person who is trying and when they get hurt and upset that you aren't listening and responding to them in a rational way, blame them for being a horrible person and not taking responsibility for themselves and what they say even though they have begged you to show them how to do better, then, when they say they will try to remember this isn't the place for good discussion, slam them again for being honest enough to admit it. Apparently I'm just so stupid I should be institutionalized for not knowing that there are rules that govern civil discussion and debate and following them the best you know how to do isn't enough of you attach christian to you name somewhere along the way.

I don't know, truth is truth where I come from and this thread did not give me the civil discussion I came here to find. Nor did it challenge my ideas in any way, all it did was frustrate (not anger, not hostility, etc.) just frustrated me that we couldn't have an honest and civil discussion to get my mind of some of the insanity (opps there is that word again) around here at the moment. Too bad I can't tell you what is going on around here so that you are not offended by me using the word insanity, cause it really does fit the whole of what is our lives at the moment.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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okay, what is inflammatory about this? I came here for a good discussion all I got was reinvention of my ideas and opinions and when you all were corrected I was ignored as if I didn't matter. I can get that anywhere, look at the incident I spoke of with the transgender family member. It's similar in nature. Say whatever you want about a person who is trying and when they get hurt and upset that you aren't listening and responding to them in a rational way, blame them for being a horrible person and not taking responsibility for themselves and what they say even though they have begged you to show them how to do better, then, when they say they will try to remember this isn't the place for good discussion, slam them again for being honest enough to admit it. Apparently I'm just so stupid I should be institutionalized for not knowing that there are rules that govern civil discussion and debate and following them the best you know how to do isn't enough of you attach christian to you name somewhere along the way.

I don't know, truth is truth where I come from and this thread did not give me the civil discussion I came here to find. Nor did it challenge my ideas in any way, all it did was frustrate (not anger, not hostility, etc.) just frustrated me that we couldn't have an honest and civil discussion to get my mind of some of the insanity (opps there is that word again) around here at the moment. Too bad I can't tell you what is going on around here so that you are not offended by me using the word insanity, cause it really does fit the whole of what is our lives at the moment.

Perhaps it would be best to go back to the beginning and start the whole thing over. Point by point. It may be the case that things went off the rails when too much was being discussed at once.
 
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razzelflabben

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But here is the really sad part of this whole thing...all I ever asked out of anyone here was to not reinvent my arguments, opinions and ideas, that is to say, address my posts not some reinvention you have of me and what I am saying and when you don't understand, respectfully accept the corrections and clarifications I offer. That is it...everything I came here asking for and expecting in conversation. I even expected to have disagreements and misunderstandings, which is why I asked that you not ignore corrections and clarifications when those things happened. I got neither of those things and I am being insulting for saying, I will try to remember this in the future when I want a good discussion...
 
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razzelflabben

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Perhaps it would be best to go back to the beginning and start the whole thing over. Point by point. It may be the case that things went off the rails when too much was being discussed at once.
Only if it can be civil without reinvention and ignoring of clarifications and corrections, otherwise, not worth the time or effort too many people here have already demonstrated an unwillingness to follow those two simple requests.
 
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