How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[SteveB28]

Most religious folk seem content to reveal that the basis of their faith is an extremely personal, internal process. They agree that there is no tangible evidence that they can produce for their beliefs and that most of it resides in dreams, visions, feelings, etc, that they claim to have experienced.

Given that this is the case and observing that different religious groups will report wildly different beliefs, it becomes reasonable to conclude that they cannot all be accurate portrayals of reality.......some, or all, must be incorrect.

Hence my question.......how does an individual know that their belief is not a delusion concocted in their own mind?

 

[SteveB28]

Just to add further........for the purposes of this discussion, I am using 'delusion' to mean a belief in something which is untrue, caused by a disconnection with reality. I am not relating it to any form of mental illness. I use it in much the same way that we might observe that most of humanity was 'deluded' when they believed that the sun orbited the earth.

 

[Abraxos]

Oh hi.

It's rather simple really, God had embedded eternity into our hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11), which is why we tend to think we have a sense of a reality beyond our subjective experience. Human beings are theistic by default, not atheistic. The brain reacts to man-made creations the same way as to natural creations, in other words we exercise the abstract principle of probability way more than any animal ever could, with the properly basic assumption that immaterial minds dictate material objects.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...re-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...re-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

So it's not a call to blind leaps of faith. It's a call to very sensible and intelligible small steps which leads to faith. Faith can be strengthened the more we learn and experience, which most adhere to. You can't have true faith through a false ambition. That is indeed where blind faith leaps of blind faith comes from, where initially delusion receives it's roots.

 

[SteveB28]

Oh hi.

It's rather simple really, God had embedded eternity into our hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11), which is why we tend to think we have a sense of a reality beyond our subjective experience. Human beings are theistic by default, not atheistic. The brain reacts to man-made creations the same way as to natural creations, in other words we exercise the abstract principle of probability way more than any animal ever could, with the properly basic assumption that immaterial minds dictate material objects.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...re-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

So it's not a call to blind leaps of faith. It's a call to very sensible and intelligible small steps which leads to faith. Faith can be strengthened the more we learn and experience, which most adhere to. You can't have true faith through a false ambition. That is indeed where blind faith leaps of blind faith comes from, where initially delusion receives it's roots.

Thank you, but you haven't really addressed the essence of my question. I wasn't asking about the origins of belief in general. My question went to an explanation of how you know that YOUR belief is accurate and not a delusion, when others will have beliefs that are markedly different to your own.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Most religious folk seem content to reveal that the basis of their faith is an extremely personal, internal process. They agree that there is no tangible evidence that they can produce for their beliefs and that most of it resides in dreams, visions, feelings, etc, that they claim to have experienced.

Given that this is the case and observing that different religious groups will report wildly different beliefs, it becomes reasonable to conclude that they cannot all be accurate portrayals of reality.......some, or all, must be incorrect.

Hence my question.......how does an individual know that their belief is not a delusion concocted in their own mind?

The only way is when looking back after you have escaped it so to speak. While we are operating within that belief, we can only perceive it as true.

However, we can learn from our experiences of this over time and become suspicious of our overall ability to perceive truth. That is when rapid progress can be made assuming we hold onto this suspicion as we live our lives.

Delusion is part of the process and inescapable. When you understand the universality of this, you stop judging others for it.

 

[SteveB28]

The only way is when looking back after you have escaped it so to speak. While we are operating within that belief, we can only perceive it as true.

However, we can learn from our experiences of this over time and become suspicious of our overall ability to perceive truth. That is when rapid progress can be made assuming we hold onto this suspicion as we live our lives.

Delusion is part of the process and inescapable. When you understand the universality of this, you stop judging others for it.

Good response. A couple of thoughts.....
Why can we not recognise a delusion while it is being experienced? Why can we not reason our 'way out'?
And, I don't believe I was suggesting judgement. As I explained, most of us can be deluded over various issues. Had I been born prior to Copernicus, I would probably have experienced the delusion of geocentrism.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Good response. A couple of thoughts.....
Why can we not recognise a delusion while it is being experienced? Why can we not reason our 'way out'?

It's because that which causes our blindspots can also utilize our intellect. That is what confirmation bias is - intellectually perceiving something to be true based on what we already believe to be true, or based on our delusions.

 

[SteveB28]

It's because that which causes our blindspots can also utilize our intellect. That is what confirmation bias is - intellectually perceiving something to be true based on what we already believe to be true, or based on our delusions.

Indeed, I agree with all of this. It has been demonstrated, however, that people can use reason to overcome their own delusions. But it would take significant effort and patience. Think, for example, of the famous mathematician John Nash. He was able to recognise his delusions and to deal with them through a process of probabilistic determination of reality. Not within the scope of everyone, I suppose.

My interest in this is in observing many religious people. When discussing a religious belief opposed to their own, they will frequently claim that the other belief is 'untrue' or 'not in keeping with reality'. In short, they are claiming that such a belief is a delusion. However, they are unable (unwilling?) to use such an 'outsider's test' to evaluate their own belief.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Indeed, I agree with all of this. It has been demonstrated, however, that people can use reason to overcome their own delusions. But it would take significant effort and patience. Think, for example, of the famous mathematician John Nash. He was able to recognise his delusions and to deal with them through a process of probabilistic determination of reality. Not within the scope of everyone, I suppose.

Awareness is the antidote to delusion, but we have to become aware of the root cause rather than a symptom of the problem. Everyone has awareness so everyone can potentially overcome their delusions.

My interest in this is in observing many religious people. When discussing a religious belief opposed to their own, they will frequently claim that the other belief is 'untrue' or 'not in keeping with reality'. In short, they are claiming that such a belief is a delusion. However, they are unable (unwilling?) to use such an 'outsider's test' to evaluate their own belief.

I would say more unable than unwilling. Free-will is something we have to develop. As we develop more free-will (consciousness, self awareness) then it's more fair to say unwilling.

Fwiw, I think people genuinely believe they do take an outsider's, objective look at their religious beliefs, but they are still operating within their belief system.

 

[Chriliman]

Most religious folk seem content to reveal that the basis of their faith is an extremely personal, internal process. They agree that there is no tangible evidence that they can produce for their beliefs and that most of it resides in dreams, visions, feelings, etc, that they claim to have experienced.

Given that this is the case and observing that different religious groups will report wildly different beliefs, it becomes reasonable to conclude that they cannot all be accurate portrayals of reality.......some, or all, must be incorrect.

Hence my question.......how does an individual know that their belief is not a delusion concocted in their own mind?

This assumes there is objective truth that can free us from delusion. Do you know what that objective truth is? If not, shouldn't it be your top priority to figure it out in order to help others in their delusions?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Given that this is the case and observing that different religious groups will report wildly different beliefs, it becomes reasonable to conclude that they cannot all be accurate portrayals of reality

Would you mind giving an example of the different type beliefs you are referring to?

 

[SteveB28]

This assumes there is objective truth that can free us from delusion. Do you know what that objective truth is? If not, shouldn't it be your top priority to figure it out in order to help others in their delusions?

Certainly. How can I help you better connect with reality?

 

[SteveB28]

Would you mind giving an example of the different type beliefs you are referring to?

Happy to. Christians have a belief in "one true God". Muslims have a similar belief, but ascribe very different characteristics to him. Hindus have a cavalcade of gods, each with differing attributes. And so on.

 

[Chriliman]

Certainly. How can I help you better connect with reality?

How would you know that I'm not completely connected to reality?

What is the objective truth that everyone should accept in order to not be delusional?

 

[Chriliman]

.

 

[SteveB28]

How would you know that I'm not completely connected to reality?

Sorry. I thought that "help others" might be applying to yourself.

What is the objective truth that everyone should accept in order to not be delusional?

THE truth? Who claimed that there was a single truth only? Certainly not me.

I would suggest a strategy similar to John Nash's. Be skeptical of those beliefs which do not seem to comport with the real world. Seek alternate explanations. Follow the advice of William of Occam when formulating conclusions.

 

[razzelflabben]

Most religious folk seem content to reveal that the basis of their faith is an extremely personal, internal process. They agree that there is no tangible evidence that they can produce for their beliefs and that most of it resides in dreams, visions, feelings, etc, that they claim to have experienced.

Given that this is the case and observing that different religious groups will report wildly different beliefs, it becomes reasonable to conclude that they cannot all be accurate portrayals of reality.......some, or all, must be incorrect.

Hence my question.......how does an individual know that their belief is not a delusion concocted in their own mind?

by testing the "evidence" against the bible and what evidence the bible says will be there. If the Bible which claims to be the very word of God is not the authority for that God, then we are using some other authority for some other god. The only right answer to the question is based on what Scripture tells us the fruit of the Spirit, the guarantee of our salvation, really is. Unfortunately most of the modern day church fail to teach what scripture does say thus even many who show the evidence don't realize they are.

 

[Chriliman]

Sorry. I thought that "help others" might be applying to yourself.

Of course, I think we all need help in some way.

THE truth? Who claimed that there was a single truth only? Certainly not me.

In order for all to be free from delusion there would have to be an objective truth that we can all agree is true and correct. What is it?

I would suggest a strategy similar to John Nash's. Be skeptical of those beliefs which do not seem to comport with the real world. Seek alternate explanations. Follow the advice of William of Occam when formulating conclusions.

Sounds good and I've already done that, which has lead me to my current conclusions about reality.

Do you think I'm delusional because I believe in God? If so, what objective truth will help me? If you have no objective truth to help me, then what makes you conclude that I'm delusional for believing in God, if indeed that is what you think?

 

[quatona]

Happy to. Christians have a belief in "one true God". Muslims have a similar belief, but ascribe very different characteristics to him. Hindus have a cavalcade of gods, each with differing attributes. And so on.

Actually, what metaphysical beliefs other people hold is no skin off my nose. (I consider religion/metaphysics a field of creativity rather than analysis).
If anything, my concerns are about "the fruit" their beliefs create.

 

[HitchSlap]

This assumes there is objective truth that can free us from delusion. Do you know what that objective truth is? If not, shouldn't it be your top priority to figure it out in order to help others in their delusions?

Most of us here know objective truth. It's you who seem hopelessly confused by the nature of reality.