There is only one Dragon/Serpent in scripture (Part 3)

[Grip Docility]

However, as God's enemy, is that Satan couldn't come before God not a human assumption nowhere presented, and actually contradicted in Scripture?
Since all is ordained by God, the controversy with Satan would be to the glory of the Father through the glory of the Son who defeats him.

I hear ya'. . .but we should stay on the Biblical rails, right?

Yes, Satan is the accuser of mankind, always challenging the justness ("favoritism") of God in his dealings with the righteous.

Is that not a human assumption. . .and in terms of "stayin' on the rails," not in agreement with the Biblical account?

Thanks, but the NT seems to disagree.

1 Co15:56 - the sting of death is sin (like the sting of death is a rattlesnake) i.e., it was sin that brought us under death's power--it was Adam's sin that brought his death (Ro 5:12) and ultimately, ours.
and the power of sin (to kill) is the law; i.e., the law of God gives sin its power, for it both reveals our sin and condemns us to eternal death.

I can understand how you are framing this... but to dare suggest that Satan exists by Divine will to Glorify God, as God CREATES and ONDAINS the ACTIONS of SATAN, so everyone will see what a great God, God is... is like saying...

I'm going to hire a bunch of people to go murder, rape and pillage, then come in at the last moment and defeat them, to show how great I am.

To NOT CHARGE Evil unto God, as Job himself did not do, one must understand that there is a GENUINE opposing Will scenario occurring. The Will of God is not, nor ever ORDAINED the Will of the Evil One. If you don't search for the theological disconnect... The Devil is just a puppet on God's hand, in my opinion.

 

[Grip Docility]

I'll try not to do so. . .but don't we have to stick with the Bibilical narrative, rather than creating our own?

When I die, I hope anything I have written dies with me. I have always stated that I am writing from opinion of what I believe scripture says. I'm not making BIG leaps here. In the next part.... Part 4... you will see that God calls Satan on being "unjust" in Satan's case against Job.

God fosters Autonomous Free Moral Agency. If that concept is denied, then Satan is just a hand puppet of God... and that is not a good thing to suggest. I am showing how I perceive the disconnect within scripture. I'm only 4 OP's in. There's more to come.

 

[Grip Docility]

However, as God's enemy, is that Satan couldn't come before God not a human assumption nowhere presented, and actually contradicted in Scripture?
Since all is ordained by God, the controversy with Satan would be to the glory of the Father through the glory of the Son who defeats him.

I hear ya'. . .but we should stay on the Biblical rails, right?

Yes, Satan is the accuser of mankind, always challenging the justness ("favoritism") of God in his dealings with the righteous.

Is that not a human assumption. . .and in terms of "stayin' on the rails," not in agreement with the Biblical account?

Thanks, but the NT seems to disagree.

1 Co15:56 - the sting of death is sin (like the sting of death is rattlesnake) i.e., it was sin that brought us under death's power--it was Adam's sin that brought his death (Ro 5:12) and ultimately, ours.
and the power of sin (to kill) is the law; i.e., the law of God gives sin its power, for it both reveals our sin and condemns us to death.

That is not so, about Adam. Eve was deceived. Eve ate of the fruit. Adam only followed suit. Satan is the origin of sin. God is still "TESTING" us. When He walked the earth... he judged no one, though all judgment was given to Him. Jesus only states that ONE BEING had already been judged.

You assume I'm outside of scripture, but I have maintained the rails more carefully than you may think.

Is this the commentary of the ages? NO! It's just some sinful bag of bones, who is saved by Grace, opinion... But, I'm not finished, yet. I haven't drawn out all of the scripture, yet, for good reason. I'm priming the readers for where everything reaches the main event.

 

[Clare73]

I can understand how you are framing this... but to dare suggest that Satan exists by Divine will to Glorify God, as God CREATES and ONDAINS the ACTIONS of SATAN,

Nothing exists in God's creation over which he does not have absolute power or he would not be sovereign (Da 4:35), and that includes Satan.

so everyone will see what a great God, God is... is like saying...

I'm going to hire a bunch of people to go murder, rape and pillage, then come in at the last moment and defeat them, to show how great I am.

Should you be giving more thought to Ro 9:22-24?

Satan is not the reason mankind does not believe.
Mankind's fallen nature (absence of eternal life lost in the fall) is the sole reason man does not believe.

To NOT CHARGE Evil unto God, as Job himself did not do, one must understand that there is a GENUINE opposing Will scenario occurring. The Will of God is not, nor ever ORDAINED the Will of the Evil One.

God ordained, as he did with Adam, the circumstances (choice) which allowed both Satan and Adam to choose their own will over God's will.
All the angels (including the fallen angels) as well as man, are now confirmed in those first choices in creation.

If you don't search for the theological disconnect... The Devil is just a puppet on God's hand, in my opinion.

As with Adam, God created Satan with the power to choose sin and, as with Adam, God is not responsible for Satan' choice.

 

[Grip Docility]

Nothing exists in God's creation over which he does not have absolute power or he would not be sovereign (Da 4:35), and that includes Satan.

God demonstrates in Job that though He has absolute power... He allows His creations to play out the essence of their choices through genuine display of where their heart lies. I further assert and will hold to it that God was Testing Satan, not Job.

Should you be giving more thought to Ro 9:22-24?

Romans 9:22-24 agrees with me. It is saying that God exerts compassion towards even the most Hardened and Damned... IE The King of the Proud Beasts, For Instance. Are you reading this like a Calvinist would read it?

It's stating that none will come under God's wrath, without first having experienced the depth of God's patience!

Satan is not the reason mankind does not believe.
Mankind's fallen nature (absence of eternal life lost in the fall) is the sole reason man does not believe.

Really? Erase the Dragon from the biblical narrative of Genesis 3. What would your conclusion then be?

God ordained, as he did with Adam, the circumstances (choice) which allowed both Satan and Adam to choose their own will over God's will.
All the angels, including the fallen angels, as well as man, are now confirmed in those first choices in creation.

God gave us Free Moral Agency to demonstrate that He isn't a control freak. God is seeking GENUINE LOVE from a SINCERE HEART. No Free Moral Agency... No Genuine Love. God isn't guilty of his Free Moral Agents, abuse of that agency. Nor is God responsible for the consequences of Free Moral Agency playing out. God is Good. We are Evil. Satan is WICKED. The disconnect is crucial to seek out, in my opinion.

As with Adam, God created Satan with the power to choose sin and, as with Adam, God is not responsible for Satan' choice.

Sin is Missing the Mark! The Law is GOD. God is the ONLY Being in ALL of ALL creation that is Perfect by His precepts. God is the Mark. Adam and Eve were Never created Like God, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. The only reason that Adam and Eve fell under judgment, is that Satan Deceived Eve... As PAUL AGREES (2 Corinthians 11:3). The Devil is the origin of sin. No Devil, no sin. We were never held to the mark, until the Devil deceived Eve to "Be like God". Adam and Eve didn't desire to "be like God", until the author of Pride... literally stole the dominion of the earth, away from them!

 

[Clare73]

When I die, I hope anything I have written dies with me. I have always stated that I am writing from opinion of what I believe scripture says. I'm not making BIG leaps here. In the next part.... Part 4... you will see that God calls Satan on being "unjust" in Satan's case against Job.

God fosters Autonomous Free Moral Agency. If that concept is denied, then Satan is just a hand puppet of God... and that is not a good thing to suggest.

But
1) moral free agency (ability to make moral choices) is not moral free will (ability to make all moral choices; e.g, to be sinless), and
2) the will is not "free," it is governed by the disposition, what one prefers (for whatever reason).

I am showing how I perceive the disconnect within scripture. I'm only 4 OP's in. There's more to come.

You mean Satan's disconnect. . .from God?

That is not so, about Adam. Eve was deceived. Eve ate of the fruit. Adam only followed suit. Satan is the origin of sin.

Yes, he committed the first sin in creation.

If Adam were not responsible for his choice to disobey, God would have not punished him with expulsion from the Garden and a fallen nature.

Is your view of Adam's sin the Biblical view of Adam's sin?

God is still "TESTING" us. When He walked the earth... he judged no one, though all judgment was given to Him. Jesus only states that ONE BEING had already been judged.

The judgment on the sin of those who believe in Jesus Christ was judged at the cross as "paid in full," right?

You assume I'm outside of scripture, but I have maintained the rails more carefully than you may think.

You do agree that all that is not presented in Scripture is necessarily "outside" of Scripture, right?

Is this the commentary of the ages? NO! It's just some sinful bag of bones, who is saved by Grace, opinion... But, I'm not finished, yet. I haven't drawn out all of the scripture, yet, for good reason. I'm priming the readers for where everything reaches the main event.

 

[Clare73]

God demonstrates in Job that though He has absolute power... He allows His creations to play out the essence of their choices through genuine display of where their heart lies. I further assert and will hold to it that God was Testing Satan, not Job.

Satan was tested, failed and expelled from heaven before Job ever existed.

Romans 9:22-24 agrees with me. It is saying that God exerts compassion towards even the most Hardened and Damned... IE The King of the Proud Beasts, For Instance. Are you reading this like a Calvinist would read it?

I'm reading:
"to show his wrath and make his owner known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath---prepared in advancefor destruction. . .to make the riches of his glory (goodness) known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--"
What are you reading?

God demonstrates in Job that though He has absolute power... He allows His creations to play out the essence of their choices through genuine display of where their heart lies. I further assert and will hold to it that God was Testing Satan, not Job.

Romans 9:22-24 agrees with me. It is saying that God exerts compassion towards even the most Hardened and Damned... IE The King of the Proud Beasts, For Instance. Are you reading this like a Calvinist would read it?

It's stating that none will come under God's wrath, without first having experienced the depth of God's patience!

Really? Erase the Dragon from the biblical narrative of Genesis 3. What would your conclusion then be?

God gave us Free Moral Agency to demonstrate that He isn't a control freak. God is seeking GENUINE LOVE from a SINCERE HEART. No Free Moral Agency... No Genuine Love. God isn't guilty of his Free Moral Agents, abuse of that agency. Nor is God responsible for the consequences of Free Moral Agency playing out. God is Good. We are Evil. Satan is WICKED. The disconnect is crucial to seek out, in my opinion.

Sin is Missing the Mark! The Law is GOD. God is the ONLY Being in ALL of ALL creation that is Perfect by His precepts. God is the Mark. Adam and Eve were Never created Like God, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. The only reason that Adam and Eve fell under judgment, is that Satan Deceived Eve... As PAUL AGREES (2 Corinthians 11:3). The Devil is the origin of sin. No Devil, no sin. We were never held to the mark, until the Devil deceived Eve to "Be like God". Adam and Eve didn't desire to "be like God", until the author of Pride... literally stole the dominion of the earth, away from them!

It's stating that none will come under God's wrath, without first having experienced the depth of God's patience!

Really? Erase the Dragon from the biblical narrative of Genesis 3. What would your conclusion then be?

Adam did not choose to sin.

So if I go into the jewelry store and the clerk tells me she won't report it if I steal the necklace, I am not responsible for stealing it because she thereby tempted me?

 

[Grip Docility]

But
1) moral free agency (ability to make moral choices) is not moral free will (ability to make all moral choices; e.g, to be sinless), and
2) the will is not "free," it is governed by the disposition, what one prefers (for whatever reason).

You mean Satan's disconnect. . .from God?

Yes, he committed the first in in creation.

If Adam were not responsible for his choice to disobey, God would have not punished him with expulsion from the Garden and a fallen nature.

Is your view of Adam's sin the Biblical view of Adam's sin?

The judgment on the sin of those who believe in Jesus Christ was judged at the cross as "paid in full," right?

You do agree that all that is not presented in Scripture is necessarily "outside" of Scripture, right?

I’m enjoying this. Our Grandson was just dropped off for some babysitting. He’s a Wittle, adorable, Baby Cherub! I have to give him attention, love and spoiling! He’s so Handsome!

I’ll be back… and I promise to be stubborn as ever!

 

[Grip Docility]

Satan was tested, failed and expelled from heaven before Job ever existed.

I'm reading:
"to show his wrath and make his owner known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath---prepared in advancefor destruction. . .to make the riches of his glory (goodness) known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--"
What are you reading?

Adam did not choose to sin.

So if I go into the jewelry store and the clerk tells me she won't report it if I steal the necklace, I am not responsible for stealing it because she thereby tempted me?

Interesting that you say Satan was cast out, BEFORE Jesus. Revelation timeline disagrees.

 

[Clare73]

I’m enjoying this. Our Grandson was just dropped off for some babysitting. He’s a Wittle, adorable, Baby Cherub! I have to give him attention, love and spoiling! He’s so Handsome!

I’ll be back… and I promise to be stubborn as ever!

How old is the little tyke?

 

[Grip Docility]

How old is the little tyke?

4 months… He’s sleeping in my arm!

 

[Clare73]

Interesting that you say Satan was cast out, BEFORE Jesus. Revelation timeline disagrees.

So that is where you are getting your "didactics" (doctrine).

Revelation is not didactics, it is prophetic riddle (prophesy, not clearly spoken, Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.
To be correct, the interpretation must be in agreement with apostolic teaching.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles; e.g., Revelation, is not authoritative for me.
All must agree with apostolic teaching, which is authoritative to the church.

 

[Clare73]

4 months… He’s sleeping in my arm!

Your first grandchild?

 

[Grip Docility]

Your first grandchild?

Yes

 

[Grip Docility]

So that is where you are getting your "didactics" (doctrine).

Revelation is not didactics, it is prophetic riddle (prophesy, not clearly spoken, Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.
To be correct, the interpretation must be in agreement with apostolic teaching.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles; e.g., Revelation, is not authoritative for me.
All must agree with apostolic teaching, which is authoritative to the church.

Rv 12:5-7

Check the timing

It’s not Rocket science…. THEN war broke out

 

[Clare73]

Yes

Aw-w-w-w. . .

 

[Clare73]

Rv 12:5-7

Check the timing

According to that prophetic riddle, Satan was not cast out of heaven until after the cross.

So God allowed his enemy in heaven after all?

 

[Grip Docility]

So that is where you are getting your "didactics" (doctrine).

Revelation is not didactics, it is prophetic riddle (prophesy, not clearly spoken, Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.
To be correct, the interpretation must be in agreement with apostolic teaching.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles; e.g., Revelation, is not authoritative for me.
All must agree with apostolic teaching, which is authoritative to the church.

Also, Cast out means zero access.

Unless you would like to suggest Adam and Eve could go back into Eden.

 

[Grip Docility]

According to that prophetic riddle, Satan was not cast out of heaven until after the cross.

Now, quit stealing my thunder! Rotfl

 

[Clare73]

Interesting that you say Satan was cast out, BEFORE Jesus. Revelation timeline disagrees.

When God cannot tolerate sin (made most evident in the ceremonial laws), why would you think God would allow sin in heaven; i.e., Satan in heaven, after he rebelled?

We know he rebelled before he told Adam and Eve that God was lying.

Is your understanding in agreement with God's revelation, teaching and intolerance of sin in the Pentateuch?

I am not as inclined to take my doctrine from prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) as you do.

Apostolic teaching is as far as I will go. And where Scripture makes an end to teaching, I make an end to learning.

Granted. . .we are not discussing matters of salvation herein.