Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[The Liturgist]

Historical records exist. As far as I am aware, there is no historical record that tells as the names or the number of the wise men. You say such things are harmless, but they can lead to believing all sorts of things which are not true. Imagining Jesus as a baby being placed in a cosy cot filled with lovely soft straw, rather than the manger or animal feeding trough the bible talks about gives a false idea of the great humiliation involved in Jesus Christ becoming Man, for instance.

But again this all is irrelevant to the argument I posted earlier, since in my post I did not mention these charming Western folk traditions such as the names Caspar, Melchior and Balthazar, concerning the Nativity, and the Orthodox acknowledge the difficult conditions faced by the Theotokos and her husband St. Joseph. Some, perhaps most, of the Western traditions are compatible with the Orthodox Christian faith concerning the Nativity. There is however no scriptural indication that the men in question were kings (and the idea of three kings randomly traveling together seems a bit odd in the era before chivalry, unless,

In the case of the Magi, that is to say, Zoroastrian clergy (and they were Zoroastrian clery and/or members of the hereditary clerical caste in Zoroastrianism, mobeds in Modern Persian, the ancient person word Mgw being the origin of the Greek word Magi, for which reason and for the reasons other reasons I stated above, being the most likely translation of the word and also the only one which is sufficiently dignified, since all alternative translations, including wise men, have explicit or implicit meanings of occult practitioners.

Also only some English translations such as the KJV refers to the Magi as wise men; the Greek original text does not. I would assume and hope you do not value the KJV above the Greek original text. We had unpleasant encounters with some KJV Only people a few years ago (and advocating for that became banned on the forum), some of whom regarded the KJV more divinely inspired than the oriignal Greek text, to the extent that they were actually translating the KJV into other languages (and insofar as they denied the legitimacy of the original text, exceeding by some margin even the most intense Roman Catholic support for use of the Latin Vulgate .

 

[Jerry N.]

Historical records exist. As far as I am aware, there is no historical record that tells as the names or the number of the wise men. You say such things are harmless, but they can lead to believing all sorts of things which are not true. Imagining Jesus as a baby being placed in a cosy cot filled with lovely soft straw, rather than the manger or animal feeding trough the bible talks about gives a false idea of the great humiliation involved in Jesus Christ becoming Man, for instance.

I see your point, and the story should be as accurate as possible, but there is room for some artistic interpretation. Exodus with Paul Newman (1960) did a lot to encourage Christians to read the Old Testament, but I’m sure you can find a hundred errors. We had a nativity scene at home when I was a child, and we put cotton on the roof to look like snow. Considering things like Santa, consumerism, Grinch, Rudolph, and things mentioned in previous threads, naming the Magi is relatively less harmful.

 

[Jerry N.]

It's actually pretty easy. As @JSRG pointed out, it has to

1. Be shown to have actually been a pagan practice, and
2. Become a Christian practice at the time it was a pagan practice

Only then can it even be considered a possibility.

I’m trying to communicate that it is not black and white. I have used words like “shadows,” and “elements” of pagan traditions to indicate what I mean. For example, Santa Clause is not like St. Nickolas or Bacchus, but both have an influence on the making of modern Santa. I should also point out that "Christian practice" has been used to represent traditions of celebrating Christmas in a broad sense in this threat, not liturgy. Your two point definition does not take into account the mixing of pagan and Christian elements. It also doesn't take into account the revival of pagan practices that have been recorded in text or by word of mouth through stories. Nor does it take into account practices invented by pagans or followers of paganism over time and space. Pagans in Poland used to drowned a woman in the river to end winter, now it is a doll made of straw. Is it no longed legitimately pagan because it is not a living person? A pagan yule log would burn for days. If we burn a Christmas candle at the same time of the year, does that mean there is no relationship to the yule log? If you don't see the relationship, then you have reduced the discussion to black and white.

 

[The Liturgist]

For example, Santa Clause is not like St. Nickolas or Bacchus, but both have an influence on the making of modern Santa.

Firstly, Bacchus has no influence on Santa Claus, except perhaps lewd adult-oriented commercials.

Secondly, St. Nicholas of Myra was NOT a Pagan. Indeed, he is venerated by the Orthodox as a Confessor of the Faith, for he was tortured repeatedly during the Diocesan persecutions, and forensic analysis of his miraculous relics indicates that his nose was broken at least three times, yet despite that he did not renounce the faith, but indeed continued to defend it at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Thirdly, the other main influence on Santa Claus is St. Basil the Great, who was a staunch defender of the Trinity during those dark decades in the mid 4th century when Constantius, the heir of St. Constantine, and his successors, up to and including Empeor Valens, embraced the counterfeit cult of Arianism, which denies the doctrine of the Trinity and the Incarnation and instead claims that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is not God, not of one essence with the Father, but rather a created being, of a different essence from the Father (this was the teaching that outraged St. Nicholas at Nicaea).

The two were known for their extreme generosity as well, with St. Nicholas saving three young girls from poverty using the church treaasury, and St. Basil, the bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia (not to be confused with Caesarea in the Holy Land) used the substantial treasury of his church to develop a complex including a hostel, a hospice and the first recognizable modern hospital where anyone could be treated by a physician regardless of their ability to pray.

By the way did the Roman Catholic Church ever name a major hospital after St. Basil?

The most logical saints to associate with medicine are the Theotokos, St. Luke the Evangelist, St. Panteleimon, St. Cosmas and Damian and the other Holy Unmercenary Healers, yet most of these saints do not have a hospital named after them, at least by the Roman Catholics. Perhaps they are too Eastern (historically, married priests from the sui juris Eastern Catholic churches were not allowed to celebrate the divine liturgy in North America, which resulted in a large number of converts, particularly of Ruthenians, to the Orthodox Church, led by St. Alexis Toth of Wilkes-Barre, a married Ruthenian Greek Catholic priest who was asked to come to America to serve the Ruthenians in Minneapolis, only to be forbidden from serving in Minnaapolis by Bishop John Ireland, who expressed a desire to integrate the Ruthenian Greek Catholics into the Latin Rite (which did not happen, but it was not until 2014, under Pope Francis, requeiscat in pace, when the ban on married Eastern Catholic priests being allowed to serve in North America was lifted. This, along with the late Roman bishop’s very positive relations with Orthodox hierarchs, continuing in the tradition of his blessed predecessors John Paul II and Benedict XVI, memory eternal, will be remembered warmly.

 

[Jerry N.]

Firstly, Bacchus has no influence on Santa Claus, except perhaps lewd adult-oriented commercials.

Secondly, St. Nicholas of Myra was NOT a Pagan. Indeed, he is venerated by the Orthodox as a Confessor of the Faith, for he was tortured repeatedly during the Diocesan persecutions, and forensic analysis of his miraculous relics indicates that his nose was broken at least three times, yet despite that he did not renounce the faith, but indeed continued to defend it at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Thirdly, the other main influence on Santa Claus is St. Basil the Great, who was a staunch defender of the Trinity during those dark decades in the mid 4th century when Constantius, the heir of St. Constantine, and his successors, up to and including Empeor Valens, embraced the counterfeit cult of Arianism, which denies the doctrine of the Trinity and the Incarnation and instead claims that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is not God, not of one essence with the Father, but rather a created being, of a different essence from the Father (this was the teaching that outraged St. Nicholas at Nicaea).

The two were known for their extreme generosity as well, with St. Nicholas saving three young girls from poverty using the church treaasury, and St. Basil, the bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia (not to be confused with Caesarea in the Holy Land) used the substantial treasury of his church to develop a complex including a hostel, a hospice and the first recognizable modern hospital where anyone could be treated by a physician regardless of their ability to pray.

By the way did the Roman Catholic Church ever name a major hospital after St. Basil?

The most logical saints to associate with medicine are the Theotokos, St. Luke the Evangelist, St. Panteleimon, St. Cosmas and Damian and the other Holy Unmercenary Healers, yet most of these saints do not have a hospital named after them, at least by the Roman Catholics. Perhaps they are too Eastern (historically, married priests from the sui juris Eastern Catholic churches were not allowed to celebrate the divine liturgy in North America, which resulted in a large number of converts, particularly of Ruthenians, to the Orthodox Church, led by St. Alexis Toth of Wilkes-Barre, a married Ruthenian Greek Catholic priest who was asked to come to America to serve the Ruthenians in Minneapolis, only to be forbidden from serving in Minnaapolis by Bishop John Ireland, who expressed a desire to integrate the Ruthenian Greek Catholics into the Latin Rite (which did not happen, but it was not until 2014, under Pope Francis, requeiscat in pace, when the ban on married Eastern Catholic priests being allowed to serve in North America was lifted. This, along with the late Roman bishop’s very positive relations with Orthodox hierarchs, continuing in the tradition of his blessed predecessors John Paul II and Benedict XVI, memory eternal, will be remembered warmly.

Charles Dickens’ Ghost of Christmas Present is based on Bacchus, and it influenced the depiction of modern Santa and Father Christmas and visa-versa.

Exploring Dickens: The Ghost of Christmas Present — Virginia Stage Company

The Ghosts of Christmas are iconic characters that most everyone is familiar with on some level, even if they've never read the original text or seen a faithful adaptation. But why are these spirits imagined the way they are? Well all these questions and more we can somewhat answer, and theorize abo

www.vastage.org

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no explicit commandment in the NT to own, and use, a computer, smartphone or tv set.
There is no explicit command to own one particular translation of the Bible or assume that it is better than the others.
There is no explicit command to go to Bible college or go into a particular type of ministry.
There is no explicit command for the traditional daily "quiet time"; using Bible notes to read a small portion of Scripture. Nor to read Christian testimonies and books about Christian living, devotions and theology.
There is no explicit command to go to church on a Sunday and sit and listen to something that someone else has prepared.
There is no specific command to observe Shrove Tuesday, Ash Wednesday, Lent, Advent or Pentecost. But thousands of us do and are blessed by the observance.

The point is, why insist on a specific Biblical command before doing/allowing something?
Christ's nativity - the amazing story of God coming to us; the Word made flesh - is described in Scripture. Angels, and a star, announced this unique, historical event which changed society. Shepherds heard the announcement and saw the sign; Magi came from afar to pay homage.
If Christians want to set aside a certain time each year to remember, learn from and celebrate this; why not? I think we're probably all intelligent enough to know that it's not about flying reindeer, snowmen, decorating trees and eating and drinking too much.

Surely you cannot believe what you just wrote here. It is illogical to claim that every day normal tasks, or normal Christian tasks would somehow equate with a very specific and religious ceremony that is also observed by the world.

Colossians 2:8 says,
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Plus, as I pointed out before here on the forums, the fruits of Christmas are not godly fruits. It is about forced or compelled giving, greed, mimicking pagan tree customs of old, and seeing Jesus as a baby when He is not that way anymore. Lets not forget about how it is also on a day that aligns with other pagan gods. But just go ahead and drink your egg nog and ignore all of this. However, the Lord our God calls us to be holy and separate from the world. This is a simple and basic Bible teaching. But most simply ignore these verses in Scripture, as if they do not exist.

In other words, my encouragement to you is to ask for the Spirit to reveal to you these things in His Word, and the things involving this worldly holiday. If you do, you may have wished you did not ask.

 

[The Liturgist]

Charles Dickens’ Ghost of Christmas Present is based on Bacchus, and it influenced the depiction of modern Santa and Father Christmas and visa-versa.

Exploring Dickens: The Ghost of Christmas Present — Virginia Stage Company

The Ghosts of Christmas are iconic characters that most everyone is familiar with on some level, even if they've never read the original text or seen a faithful adaptation. But why are these spirits imagined the way they are? Well all these questions and more we can somewhat answer, and theorize abo

www.vastage.org

That seems unlikely, certainly outside of the English speaking world, since i don’t recall any Bachanalia or ecstatic fits of wine-consumption in Dickens, nor is Santa Claus associated with ritual madness.

According to Psam 95 v. 5, the gods of the gentiles are demons.

Associating two of the most pious Christian saints, Nicholas and Basil, the former a confessor tortured by Pagans, with an idol of a demon, Bacchus, is entirely wrong. Of course Charles DIckens himself if I recall was a humanist.

The essential elements of St. Nicholas as venerated in the West are present throughout Europe and predate Dickens and his degenerate writing by several centuries.

It should also be noted that the racist depiction of the demon enslaved by Sinterklaas in the Dutch tradition dates from well after the Reformation, to the 19th century, and is even more offensive than the writings of Charles DIckens, given the massive amount of money the Dutch generated from selling slaves captured in Ghana at their castle in Elmina, which I have personally toured (and which featured a Calvinist chapel, but only for use by the Dutch, as no effort was made to evangelize any of the slaves at least until they made it to the Carribean, for most would die in transit). Elmina Castle - Wikipedia

 

[Jerry N.]

That seems unlikely, certainly outside of the English speaking world, since i don’t recall any Bachanalia or ecstatic fits of wine-consumption in Dickens, nor is Santa Claus associated with ritual madness.

According to Psam 95 v. 5, the gods of the gentiles are demons.

Associating two of the most pious Christian saints, Nicholas and Basil, the former a confessor tortured by Pagans, with an idol of a demon, Bacchus, is entirely wrong. Of course Charles DIckens himself if I recall was a humanist.

The essential elements of St. Nicholas as venerated in the West are present throughout Europe and predate Dickens and his degenerate writing by several centuries.

It should also be noted that the racist depiction of the demon enslaved by Sinterklaas in the Dutch tradition dates from well after the Reformation, to the 19th century, and is even more offensive than the writings of Charles DIckens, given the massive amount of money the Dutch generated from selling slaves captured in Ghana at their castle in Elmina, which I have personally toured (and which featured a Calvinist chapel, but only for use by the Dutch, as no effort was made to evangelize any of the slaves at least until they made it to the Carribean, for most would die in transit). Elmina Castle - Wikipedia

I’m not taking anything away from these venerable saints. I’m just asserting that Dickens combined Bacchus and Father Christmas, and by extension, Santa, who is associated with St. Nickolas. The Ghost of Christmas Present is a fat, bearded man, enjoying a party, who happens to looked a lot like Bacchus. If you look as Coca Cola’s Santa, you can see the similarity. Dickens cleaned up his character, but the image remains. Just replace the bottle of Coke with wine, and the similarity is obvious. I am only trying to show that the modern depiction of Santa has some pagan elements, including the focusing on hedonism and detracting from Jesus. Santa watches everything you do and rewards or punishes accordingly, which takes the position attributed to God. One of the problems is that it is difficult to define paganism, except that it is organic and based on worship of physical things and material advantage. It is not called “hedonism” for nothing.

 

[JSRG]

“Retrofitting” seems to be a good word for the return of pagan elements in Christmas traditions.

Except this business about mistletoe isn't a return of pagan elements in Christmas traditions. It's the opposite, in fact. Something, in this case kissing under mistletoe, became a Christmas tradition independent of anything pagan. We know it was unrelated to paganism because (1) no one has been able to show any indication of this ever being done by anyone, let alone pagans, prior, and (2) by the time it developed, paganism had been extinct for centuries upon centuries.

What then appears to have happened was that a few people, when retelling a story from Norse mythology that involved mistletoe (although in a completely different context and with no mention of love or kissing), took the modern tradition and inserted it into the retelling, and then other people, not realizing this was something invented much later, just started repeating it in other retellings.

Indeed, it makes no sense in the context of the story; the way mistletoe gets mentioned in the original story is that Balder was invulnerable to everything except mistletoe, so he gets killed by a spear made of mistletoe. Now, given that Frigg has just had her son Balder die due to mistletoe, so why in the world would she declare it a symbol of love and offer to kiss people under it? It's because this wasn't there originally and got added in later on, after it (without any pagan influence) got a modern tradition created around mistletoe.

So far from this retrofitting being pagan elements being put into Christmas traditions, this is a Christmas tradition being inserted into a pagan story.

Santa Claus is a good example of shadows of Dionysus and Bacchus and Germanic figures of pagan folklore.

Not really.

Understanding the connection between Frigg’s declaration of mistletoe being a symbol of love and the tradition of kissing under it does not require scholarly research, because the normal desires of young people will work just fine.

I agree one doesn't need scholarly research to find the connection. Frigg's declaration of mistletoe being a symbol of love came from no pagan source at all, because it wasn't found at all in the original telling of the story.

The connection was therefore quite simple. In the 18th century, most likely as an excuse for guys to get kisses, a custom of kissing under the mistletoe was invented. At some later point, someone saw that mistletoe happened to be mentioned in this earlier story in Norse mythology (which, again, made no mention of love or kissing at all in the story) and inserted in a retelling of the story a connection to the modern mistletoe custom.

Thus, as noted, a modern tradition that had no connection to Frigg at all got inserted into a pagan story. Again, this didn't come from pagnaism, it got inserted into paganism.

Anyway, I still don’t see how one could deny pagan elements in Christmas traditions retrofitted or otherwise. I’m just saying some are bad and some are harmless, but their existence should not stop Christians from celebrating Christmas.

Again, why can't you see how someone would deny it? You haven't been offering actual evidence for them. And in this case where all that happened was that a modern tradition got inserted into a story in Norse mythology, you are trying to reverse it and claim that somehow it became a Christmas tradition from Norse mythology.

 

[Strong in Him]

Surely you cannot believe what you just wrote here. It is illogical to claim that every day normal tasks, or normal Christian tasks would somehow equate with a very specific and religious ceremony that is also observed by the world.

That wasn't my point.
You appeared to be saying you would not do something unless there was a Bible verse which gave you permission to do it. I just wondered how far you extended that logic.

Colossians 2:8 says,
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The accounts of the nativity are about Christ.
Believing that Father Christmas comes down the chimney and gives presents to good people, or believing in singing snowmen or reindeers that talk, aren't. But then, to me and I suspect to most people here, those things do not define Christmas.

Plus, as I pointed out before here on the forums, the fruits of Christmas are not godly fruits. It is about forced or compelled giving, greed, mimicking pagan tree customs of old,

For you, maybe.
I have very few people to buy for at Christmas (siblings don't want token gifts), so I give in other ways and try to do a Samaritan's shift on Christmas day wherever possible. I don't over eat (or if I do, I cut down the next day); a tree is a decoration and if I had my way, we wouldn't put one up at all.

You have no idea how Christians may mark this festival, and holy event. And I can't believe any of us believe that Jesus is still a baby - any more than we believe that those who celebrate birthdays have just been born.

In other words, my encouragement to you is to ask for the Spirit to reveal to you these things in His Word, and the things involving this worldly holiday. If you do, you may have wished you did not ask.

A holiday is only "worldly" if you make it so.
It is possible to invite the Lord whose first miracle was turning water into wine, to be present in the celebrations. And His presence makes things holy.

Magazines and the media may give the impression that everyone's Christmas day is filled with eating, drinking, non stop laughter and entertainment - that everything is perfect and women's lives are fulfilled when they produce a 3 course dinner for 20+ family and friends. It is not like that for most people.

 

[Jerry N.]

Except this business about mistletoe isn't a return of pagan elements in Christmas traditions. It's the opposite, in fact. Something, in this case kissing under mistletoe, became a Christmas tradition independent of anything pagan. We know it was unrelated to paganism because (1) no one has been able to show any indication of this ever being done by anyone, let alone pagans, prior, and (2) by the time it developed, paganism had been extinct for centuries upon centuries.

What then appears to have happened was that a few people, when retelling a story from Norse mythology that involved mistletoe (although in a completely different context and with no mention of love or kissing), took the modern tradition and inserted it into the retelling, and then other people, not realizing this was something invented much later, just started repeating it in other retellings.

Indeed, it makes no sense in the context of the story; the way mistletoe gets mentioned in the original story is that Balder was invulnerable to everything except mistletoe, so he gets killed by a spear made of mistletoe. Now, given that Frigg has just had her son Balder die due to mistletoe, so why in the world would she declare it a symbol of love and offer to kiss people under it? It's because this wasn't there originally and got added in later on, after it (without any pagan influence) got a modern tradition created around mistletoe.

So far from this retrofitting being pagan elements being put into Christmas traditions, this is a Christmas tradition being inserted into a pagan story.



Not really.



I agree one doesn't need scholarly research to find the connection. Frigg's declaration of mistletoe being a symbol of love came from no pagan source at all, because it wasn't found at all in the original telling of the story.

The connection was therefore quite simple. In the 18th century, most likely as an excuse for guys to get kisses, a custom of kissing under the mistletoe was invented. At some later point, someone saw that mistletoe happened to be mentioned in this earlier story in Norse mythology (which, again, made no mention of love or kissing at all in the story) and inserted in a retelling of the story a connection to the modern mistletoe custom.

Thus, as noted, a modern tradition that had no connection to Frigg at all got inserted into a pagan story. Again, this didn't come from pagnaism, it got inserted into paganism.



Again, why can't you see how someone would deny it? You haven't been offering actual evidence for them. And in this case where all that happened was that a modern tradition got inserted into a story in Norse mythology, you are trying to reverse it and claim that somehow it became a Christmas tradition from Norse mythology.

As I wrote before, the problem is defining paganism. It doesn’t have much of a doctrine written in stone. If you insert something into a pagan story and act on it, does it stop being pagan? Paganism is fluid. One thing you can do is show how it is not Christian in the western idea of what generally Christianity is. If you make up an idea, like kissing under mistletoe, it isn’t Christian, but it has some link to pagan stories. If you contend that kissing under mistletoe is not pagan, because pagan stories don’t include it, your definition of pagan practices is more narrow than mine. I understand, but I can’t stop seeing that there is a link.

 

[JSRG]

As I wrote before, the problem is defining paganism. It doesn’t have much of a doctrine written in stone. If you insert something into a pagan story and act on it, does it stop being pagan? Paganism is fluid. One thing you can do is show how it is not Christian in the western idea of what generally Christianity is. If you make up an idea, like kissing under mistletoe, it isn’t Christian, but it has some link to pagan stories. If you contend that kissing under mistletoe is not pagan, because pagan stories don’t include it, your definition of pagan practices is more narrow than mine. I understand, but I can’t stop seeing that there is a link.

But once again, all connection with of mistletoe kissing with "paganism" occurred only after it had arisen independently of paganism. This reference to it in this retelling of the Balder story came from the Christmas tradition, not the other way around.

Let me put it this way. In the Disney animated film Hercules (based on the myth of Hercules), there is a joke where someone, due to an emergency, shouts "call IX-I-I!"

There is, obviously, no mention of calling IX-I-I or or calling 911 in any of the original Greek or Roman myths, and the number was not used for that until the 20th century. But by the logic you appear to be presenting, because someone included a reference to calling 911 in a retelling of a story from pagan mythology after the practice of calling 911 had arisen (with no connection to paganism), the practice of calling 911 in an emergency now has a pagan link.

 

[Jerry N.]

But once again, all connection with of mistletoe kissing with "paganism" occurred only after it had arisen independently of paganism. This reference to it in this retelling of the Balder story came from the Christmas tradition, not the other way around.

Let me put it this way. In the Disney animated film Hercules (based on the myth of Hercules), there is a joke where someone, due to an emergency, shouts "call IX-I-I!"

There is, obviously, no mention of calling IX-I-I or or calling 911 in any of the original Greek or Roman myths, and the number was not used for that until the 20th century. But by the logic you appear to be presenting, because someone included a reference to calling 911 in a retelling of a story from pagan mythology after the practice of calling 911 had arisen (with no connection to paganism), the practice of calling 911 in an emergency now has a pagan link.

That is a good point. Calling 911 is not linked to paganism. The original post was asserting that too many pagan practices have become part of Christmas tradition, and we should keep to Biblical teachings. I pointed out several Christmas traditions that have been linked to Christmas and referenced the Venerable Bede, historians, and literature. I don’t think they warrant not celebrating Christmas, but they do detract from the wonderful fact that the Son of God came to earth to save sinners.

Paganism is alive and well in the modern world. I know people who worship the earth and nature. There are also people who worship money and material wealth, which is idolatry and could be considered a form of paganism. If you want to limit paganism to ancient practices of Norse, Saxon, Greek, Roman, and non-Christian beliefs, it is not unreasonable. However, that does not address the topic of the corruption of Christmas celebrations as presented by the OP.

 

[prodromos]

That is a good point. Calling 911 is not linked to paganism. The original post was asserting that too many pagan practices have become part of Christmas tradition, and we should keep to Biblical teachings. I pointed out several Christmas traditions that have been linked to Christmas and referenced the Venerable Bede, historians, and literature. I don’t think they warrant not celebrating Christmas, but they do detract from the wonderful fact that the Son of God came to earth to save sinners.

Paganism is alive and well in the modern world. I know people who worship the earth and nature. There are also people who worship money and material wealth, which is idolatry and could be considered a form of paganism. If you want to limit paganism to ancient practices of Norse, Saxon, Greek, Roman, and non-Christian beliefs, it is not unreasonable. However, that does not address the topic of the corruption of Christmas celebrations as presented by the OP.

I think you are conflating paganism with secularism. Also keep in mind that none of these traditions you have mentioned are in any way endorsed by the Churches.

 

[Jerry N.]

I think you are conflating paganism with secularism. Also keep in mind that none of these traditions you have mentioned are in any way endorsed by the Churches.

Define “paganism” and “secularism.” Even if churches have not formally endorsed non-Christian practices, they have been tolerated.

 

[prodromos]

Define “paganism” and “secularism.”

Paganism relates to the ancient polytheistic religions. Secularism is irreligious.

Even if churches have not formally endorsed non-Christian practices, they have been tolerated.

I've never seen any of those things tolerated in Church. Your experience may be different.

 

[Jerry N.]

Paganism relates to the ancient polytheistic religions. Secularism is irreligious.

I've never seen any of those things tolerated in Church. Your experience may be different.

The internet defines “paganism” as follows:

The state of being pagan; pagan characteristics; esp., the worship of idols or false gods, or the system of religious opinions and worship maintained by pagans; heathenism.

Similar: heathenism Indigenous and polytheistic religions. A class of religions often associated with nature rituals. (underlining added)

If the definitions you gave are what you want to use, it is up to you. I am contending that the worship of any idol can be a form of paganism. If you have dedicated your life to pleasure, money, or the stock market, you have created an idol for yourself. This would also include making yourself your own little god. Nobody is truly irreligious, everybody worships something. I don’t see much difference between dressing up somebody in a red suit, parading them through the streets, and asking them for gifts is much different from carving an image out of wood or stone and asking it to give you a good harvest.

 

[prodromos]

The internet defines “paganism” as follows:

The state of being pagan; pagan characteristics; esp., the worship of idols or false gods, or the system of religious opinions and worship maintained by pagans; heathenism.

Similar: heathenism Indigenous and polytheistic religions. A class of religions often associated with nature rituals. (underlining added)

If the definitions you gave are what you want to use, it is up to you. I am contending that the worship of any idol can be a form of paganism. If you have dedicated your life to pleasure, money, or the stock market, you have created an idol for yourself. This would also include making yourself your own little god. Nobody is truly irreligious, everybody worships something. I don’t see much difference between dressing up somebody in a red suit, parading them through the streets, and asking them for gifts is much different from carving an image out of wood or stone and asking it to give you a good harvest.

We have very different understandings of paganism.

 

[Jerry N.]

We have very different understandings of paganism.

Okay

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That wasn't my point.
You appeared to be saying you would not do something unless there was a Bible verse which gave you permission to do it. I just wondered how far you extended that logic.

The accounts of the nativity are about Christ.
Believing that Father Christmas comes down the chimney and gives presents to good people, or believing in singing snowmen or reindeers that talk, aren't. But then, to me and I suspect to most people here, those things do not define Christmas.


For you, maybe.
I have very few people to buy for at Christmas (siblings don't want token gifts), so I give in other ways and try to do a Samaritan's shift on Christmas day wherever possible. I don't over eat (or if I do, I cut down the next day); a tree is a decoration and if I had my way, we wouldn't put one up at all.

You have no idea how Christians may mark this festival, and holy event. And I can't believe any of us believe that Jesus is still a baby - any more than we believe that those who celebrate birthdays have just been born.

A holiday is only "worldly" if you make it so.
It is possible to invite the Lord whose first miracle was turning water into wine, to be present in the celebrations. And His presence makes things holy.

Magazines and the media may give the impression that everyone's Christmas day is filled with eating, drinking, non stop laughter and entertainment - that everything is perfect and women's lives are fulfilled when they produce a 3 course dinner for 20+ family and friends. It is not like that for most people.

It sounds as if you've reshaped Christmas into your own image. However, this doesn't change the reality of how Christmas is generally celebrated, how the world defines the holiday, and the fruit that results from it. Jesus said you will know a tree by its fruit. While I'm deeply thankful for the Lord coming into the flesh for our sake, I am not going to create my own personal rituals, such as replacing a pagan tree with a miniature empty barn or stall. Nor do I feel comfortable celebrating on a specific day when pagan gods are also worshipped. Today, most people adopt an attitude of "if it feels good, do it" rather than aligning their spiritual lives with the Bible.

Again, Colossians 2:8 says,
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Is not Christmas a tradition of men?
Is not Christmas after the rudiments of the world?
I would say "yes" because of the bad fruit that results from this holiday in its entirety by others.
You can make this holiday into whatever you like, but you cannot control how the holiday exists as a whole by the majority.