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Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

prodromos

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My actual sources are from textbooks I studied many years ago about Norse and Saxon mythology. This just seemed like a good summary of what I read. The actual conversions of common people from pagan believes to Christianity took many years. The Church either ignored or accepted that certain practices were not going to go away, so these practices were gradually "Christianized." I'm not saying that these practices are good, but I am saying that they are not a good reason to abandon the celebration of the birth of Christ. We should just put Christ first above all things.
The claim that December 25 held any significance to the pagans has no support at all. The only time it did was in 274AD century when Emperor Aurelian dedicated a temple to Sol Invictus on that day. That was it. It didn't become an annual event.

Saturnalia always ended before December 25, the claim that it ended on the 25th on a day called Brumalia is completely false, and contrary to what the linked article claims, there are no Christian festivities leading up to Christmas. Advent, as it is called in the West, is a period of fasting in preparation for the Nativity of our Lord. There are no festivities, which is the complete opposite of Saturnalia. So firstly, there was no pagan feast day associated with December 25 for Christians to co-opt, and secondly there were no aspects of Saturnalia that carried over into the Christian celebration of Christ's birth. There was no exchanging of gifts, that is something that began much later and was originally linked to the feast day of St Nicholas in the West on December 6, and the feast day of St Basil on January 1 in the East.

On other threads, our good friend @JSRG has provided a lot of historical documentation debunking claims about Norse and Saxon pagan practices supposedly being taken up by Christians. I recommend you search for his posts on those subjects.
 
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prodromos

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I agree with your second sentence but not your first. We read in Acts:

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” (Ac 17:10-11 NKJV)

They didn't consult traditions, either their own or those of the Jews.
They consulted the Old Testament, which of course we all know points to Christ, and they examined those Scriptures to confirm the truth of the New Tradition which Paul had brought to them. The Pharisees had those same Scriptures yet they did not recognise Christ in them.
Paul wrote:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJV)
Again, the only Scriptures Timothy could have known from his childhood is the Old Testament, and in his case the Greek Septuagint version. Note also that Paul said Scripture was "profitable". How do you go from that to the position you apparently hold?
 
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Jerry N.

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But I would say that the pastor greeting congregation members at the door when they arrive or leave is rather different to traditions that teach certain things like the supposed names and number of wise men as fact.

How do you draw a line between history and tradition? There is a line, but it is not clear. Pick just about any event, and you will find that we don’t have all the facts written down by perfectly reliable sources. We hopefully try to compose a narrative of events with the best information we have. The names and number of Magi visiting Jesus have the purpose of helping people visualize the event. It probably got reinforced with Mystery Plays. George Washington may or may not have chopped down a cherry tree, but Americans eat cherry pie to celebrate and focus on Washington’s honesty. The traditional names of Magi are rather harmless and have enhanced the Christmas celebrations.
 
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Jerry N.

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The claim that December 25 held any significance to the pagans has no support at all. The only time it did was in 274AD century when Emperor Aurelian dedicated a temple to Sol Invictus on that day. That was it. It didn't become an annual event.

Saturnalia always ended before December 25, the claim that it ended on the 25th on a day called Brumalia is completely false, and contrary to what the linked article claims, there are no Christian festivities leading up to Christmas. Advent, as it is called in the West, is a period of fasting in preparation for the Nativity of our Lord. There are no festivities, which is the complete opposite of Saturnalia. So firstly, there was no pagan feast day associated with December 25 for Christians to co-opt, and secondly there were no aspects of Saturnalia that carried over into the Christian celebration of Christ's birth. There was no exchanging of gifts, that is something that began much later and was originally linked to the feast day of St Nicholas in the West on December 6, and the feast day of St Basil on January 1 in the East.

On other threads, our good friend @JSRG has provided a lot of historical documentation debunking claims about Norse and Saxon pagan practices supposedly being taken up by Christians. I recommend you search for his posts on those subjects.
Thanks for the reference, but I am not focusing on only December 25. It is the general season of days getting longer rather than shorter and hoping for spring. To deny that people kiss under mistletoe, decorate things with holly, exchange gifts, and many other things did not have some origin in pagan practices seems strange.
 
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prodromos

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Thanks for the reference, but I am not focusing on only December 25. It is the general season of days getting longer rather than shorter and hoping for spring. To deny that people kiss under mistletoe, decorate things with holly, exchange gifts, and many other things did not have some origin in pagan practices seems strange.
Kissing under mistletoe did not become a thing until between 1720 and 1784 in England, and did not exist in America until 1820. This is long after paganism had vanished so once again there is no evidence of a pagan practice being co-opted by the Church. There is little evidence that it was even a pagan practice.

In Christianity, holly was adopted as a symbol of Christ’s crown of thorns, the crimson berries a symbol of his blood and the evergreen a metaphor for life after death. As an evergreen, it naturally lends itself to decoration, and there is nothing particularly pagan about decorating our Churches and homes with God's creation.

As I posted above, there was no exchanging of gifts when the feast day of Christ's Nativity was established by the Church, however it became traditional to do so in the West on the feast day of St Nicholas in the West and the feast day of St Basil in the East to honour the generosity of both these Saints. Because of their close proximity to Christmas day, the giving of gifts gradually became associated with the Nativity over time, but this was long after Saturnalia had ceased to even be a memory so once again it is not the influence or co-opting of pagan practices.
 
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Yes, the bible itself. Traditions of men are many and varied.

That’s true, but the Orthodox Church do not follow traditions of men, but the Holy Tradition of God referred to in 1 Corinthians 11:2, and Thessalonians 2:15.

However, since @prodromos has superbly addressed this digression (which as we shall see, was unwarranted), and since my post made no mention of Western Biblical folklore such as the charming if unlikely names Caspar, Melchior and Balshazar (the mere mention of which was a red herring), I shall address your objection scripturally using literal-historical hermeneutics stressed by the school of Antioch, which many Western Christians seem to use exclusively (although whether or not one is more familiar with their origins in third century Antioch and their juxtaposition with the typological-prophetic method stressed by the catechetical school of Alexandria would depend on whether or not you benefitted from a seminary or theological education that addressed the early church and the history of scriptural hermeneutics, which Orthodox clergy receive and which one also finds fairly frequently among Anglican clergy and other scholarly Protestant clergy from a seminary that puts some emphasis on Patristics and ecclesiastical history, such as Nashotah House in the US).

I would certainly take issue with your "three Zoroastrian clergy." Are you saying that is an authoritative statement of fact? The bible calls them simply "wise men from the east, without telling us how many there were. It certainly doesn't tell us that they were Zoroastrians, or that they were clergy.

Now, herein we see why this whole tangent concerning tradition was in fact unwarranted, for the simple fact is that in authoritatively declaring these men to be three Zoroastrian clergy, I was not in fact making reference to Orthodox tradition (although I was also not consciously contradicting it, so far as I am aware (nor would I consider doing so; indeed if my pious Orthodox brother @prodromos notices any error in the following rationale from an Orthodox perspective I will change it immediately):

Rather, the reason for my authoritative declaration that the men in question were Zoroastrian clergy requires that we momentarily set aside the familiar comforts of the KJV with its exquisite literary style, yet also its manifold flaws and ambiguities, and instead repair to the Koine Greek original text, we will find the word the KJV translates as wise men is μάγοι, which in ancient Greece referred to primarily to Zoroastrian clergy, and secondarily to occult practitioners such as astrologers and sorcerers, for example, Simon Magus (it is the root of the word ”magic”), although the main Greek word for such a person was φαρμακός.*

This word was also used by Herodotus in reference to one of the tribes of the Medes (Persians) but only on one occasion, and it could well be that the group he was referring to was in fact the Zoroastrian clergy, since Mobeds (the Persian word from which μάγοι is derived), like the Kohanim of Judaism, are a hereditary caste, even in modern day Zoroastrianism with its dwindling population.

Broadly speaking if one is familiar with the Zoroastrian religion and customs and those of related dualist religions such as Mandaeism, as well as Persian culture (which I have intimate and personal knowledge of through very close friends) it is not difficult to see how such a secondary meaning attached to the word, although I would note that the formal duties of μάγοι do not constitute what most people would regard as φαρμακεία unless one takes a very uncharitable definition of all historical religious ritual.

Nonetheless, Zoroastrian clergy is the polite way I could think of referring to the three μάγοι, who demonstrated their morality by their deeds, particularly in comparison to the only other example of a Magus mentioned in Scripture, Simon Magus.

Thus, while it would not be a stretch to refer to Simon Magus as a φαρμακός, there is no evidence to suggest that the Three Magi were φαρμακεία, and thus I cannot in good conscience refer to the three μάγοι using any term, including Wise Men, which historically was often synonymous with φαρμακοὶ, to refer to them.(particularly since referring to them in such a way as to imply they were φαρμακοὶ would Scripturally associate them with what the KJV refers to as “dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie”,(Revelation 22:15) and that would not do in this case, and indeed for this reason the KJV should not have referred to them, I would argue, as wise men, given the historically negative connotations the phrase has attracted).**

So yes, I will assert that my statement that the men were, at least before meeting our Lord, Zoroastrian clergy (or to be more precise, mobeds) is an authoritative statement of fact, since the alternative is to assert that they were immoral occult practitioners whose vocation will lead to their damnation, which would be slanderous and which is counter-indicated by their behavior as recorded in scripture. For either they are magi in the sense of pharmakoi, and thus are immoral, or they are magi in the sense of Mobeds, that is to say, Zoroastrian clergy or members of the clerical hereditary caste, who practice a religion which in many respects appears to be a corrupt form of the ancient Hebrew religion but shares some concepts with it, which are lacking from other ancient religions, and most people have historically found actual mobeds, which is the most literal definition of the Greek word μάγοι, to be fairly respectable (it being likely that Simon Magus was not in fact a mobed but rather a φαρμακός who styled himself a Μάγος.

* It is amusing to consider the reaction a citizen of the Eastern Roman Empire, especially those of Jewish or Christian persuasion, would have to the contemporary English speaking world, where in North America at least, the word Pharmacy is commonly used to refer to those places which dispense prescription medication, and pious Jews and Christians receive, with the respective rabbinical and ecclesiastical blessing, doctorates in Pharmacy, often from universities associated with their religion. As an Orthodox Christian, I somewhat prefer the English term chemist, although even this has occult connotations, and also causes confusion with actual practitioners of chemistry. The use in continental Europe of the term “Apothecary” might be closer to being ideal. But the historical term for pharmacies in the US, “drug store”, which remains in use at present, seems to be the most appropriate, although even here I’m sure we could find something etymologically troubling if we looked with sufficient zeal (especially in the modern context given the problem of illicit drugs).

**That is not even taking into account the contemporary usage of “wise guy” in the US to refer to members of organized crime, or more broadly, to people who are unethically clever, which is novel in its specifics, but more generally well-established with regards to its derogatory context.
 
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Jerry N.

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Kissing under mistletoe did not become a thing until between 1720 and 1784 in England, and did not exist in America until 1820. This is long after paganism had vanished so once again there is no evidence of a pagan practice being co-opted by the Church. There is little evidence that it was even a pagan practice.

In Christianity, holly was adopted as a symbol of Christ’s crown of thorns, the crimson berries a symbol of his blood and the evergreen a metaphor for life after death. As an evergreen, it naturally lends itself to decoration, and there is nothing particularly pagan about decorating our Churches and homes with God's creation.

As I posted above, there was no exchanging of gifts when the feast day of Christ's Nativity was established by the Church, however it became traditional to do so in the West on the feast day of St Nicholas in the West and the feast day of St Basil in the East to honour the generosity of both these Saints. Because of their close proximity to Christmas day, the giving of gifts gradually became associated with the Nativity over time, but this was long after Saturnalia had ceased to even be a memory so once again it is not the influence or co-opting of pagan practices.
Your own reference refers back to Norse mythology in relation to mistletoe, Baldur, and Frigg, and it being a symbol of love. These Norse legions were well-known by Victorians, and you can see their influence in Romantic literature of the time. As for evergreens, they are a symbol of life, particularly in the dead of winter. Since pagan religions celebrate the cycle of life and the earth, you can’t separate out the turn of the seasons from the “death” and rebirth of life on earth, which mixes well with the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, which was my point. It was natural to combine the two sets of symbols in the celebration of Christmas near winter solstice. Therefore, there is no reason to not celebrate Christmas, because it has pagan elements. It is like saying that the metamorphosis of butterflies can’t be a metaphor for the resurrection. I have already conceded that the pagan/Christian mix was probably not intentional based on the excellent posts by the Liturgist.
 
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Jerry N.

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That’s true, but the Orthodox Church do not follow traditions of men, but the Holy Tradition of God referred to in 1 Corinthians 11:2, and Thessalonians 2:15.

However, since @prodromos has superbly addressed this digression (which as we shall see, was unwarranted), and since my post made no mention of Western Biblical folklore such as the charming if unlikely names Caspar, Melchior and Balshazar (the mere mention of which was a red herring), I shall address your objection scripturally using literal-historical hermeneutics stressed by the school of Antioch, which many Western Christians seem to use exclusively (although whether or not one is more familiar with their origins in third century Antioch and their juxtaposition with the typological-prophetic method stressed by the catechetical school of Alexandria would depend on whether or not you benefitted from a seminary or theological education that addressed the early church and the history of scriptural hermeneutics, which Orthodox clergy receive and which one also finds fairly frequently among Anglican clergy and other scholarly Protestant clergy from a seminary that puts some emphasis on Patristics and ecclesiastical history, such as Nashotah House in the US).



Now, herein we see why this whole tangent concerning tradition was in fact unwarranted, for the simple fact is that in authoritatively declaring these men to be three Zoroastrian clergy, I was not in fact making reference to Orthodox tradition (although I was also not consciously contradicting it, so far as I am aware (nor would I consider doing so; indeed if my pious Orthodox brother @prodromos notices any error in the following rationale from an Orthodox perspective I will change it immediately):

Rather, the reason for my authoritative declaration that the men in question were Zoroastrian clergy requires that we momentarily set aside the familiar comforts of the KJV with its exquisite literary style, yet also its manifold flaws and ambiguities, and instead repair to the Koine Greek original text, we will find the word the KJV translates as wise men is μάγοι, which in ancient Greece referred to primarily to Zoroastrian clergy, and secondarily to occult practitioners such as astrologers and sorcerers, for example, Simon Magus (it is the root of the word ”magic”), although the main Greek word for such a person was φαρμακός.*

This word was also used by Herodotus in reference to one of the tribes of the Medes (Persians) but only on one occasion, and it could well be that the group he was referring to was in fact the Zoroastrian clergy, since Mobeds (the Persian word from which μάγοι is derived), like the Kohanim of Judaism, are a hereditary caste, even in modern day Zoroastrianism with its dwindling population.

Broadly speaking if one is familiar with the Zoroastrian religion and customs and those of related dualist religions such as Mandaeism, as well as Persian culture (which I have intimate and personal knowledge of through very close friends) it is not difficult to see how such a secondary meaning attached to the word, although I would note that the formal duties of μάγοι do not constitute what most people would regard as φαρμακεία unless one takes a very uncharitable definition of all historical religious ritual.

Nonetheless, Zoroastrian clergy is the polite way I could think of referring to the three μάγοι, who demonstrated their morality by their deeds, particularly in comparison to the only other example of a Magus mentioned in Scripture, Simon Magus.

Thus, while it would not be a stretch to refer to Simon Magus as a φαρμακός, there is no evidence to suggest that the Three Magi were φαρμακεία, and thus I cannot in good conscience refer to the three μάγοι using any term, including Wise Men, which historically was often synonymous with φαρμακοὶ, to refer to them.(particularly since referring to them in such a way as to imply they were φαρμακοὶ would Scripturally associate them with what the KJV refers to as “dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie”,(Revelation 22:15) and that would not do in this case, and indeed for this reason the KJV should not have referred to them, I would argue, as wise men, given the historically negative connotations the phrase has attracted).**

So yes, I will assert that my statement that the men were, at least before meeting our Lord, Zoroastrian clergy (or to be more precise, mobeds) is an authoritative statement of fact, since the alternative is to assert that they were immoral occult practitioners whose vocation will lead to their damnation, which would be slanderous and which is counter-indicated by their behavior as recorded in scripture. For either they are magi in the sense of pharmakoi, and thus are immoral, or they are magi in the sense of Mobeds, that is to say, Zoroastrian clergy or members of the clerical hereditary caste, who practice a religion which in many respects appears to be a corrupt form of the ancient Hebrew religion but shares some concepts with it, which are lacking from other ancient religions, and most people have historically found actual mobeds, which is the most literal definition of the Greek word μάγοι, to be fairly respectable (it being likely that Simon Magus was not in fact a mobed but rather a φαρμακός who styled himself a Μάγος.

* It is amusing to consider the reaction a citizen of the Eastern Roman Empire, especially those of Jewish or Christian persuasion, would have to the contemporary English speaking world, where in North America at least, the word Pharmacy is commonly used to refer to those places which dispense prescription medication, and pious Jews and Christians receive, with the respective rabbinical and ecclesiastical blessing, doctorates in Pharmacy, often from universities associated with their religion. As an Orthodox Christian, I somewhat prefer the English term chemist, although even this has occult connotations, and also causes confusion with actual practitioners of chemistry. The use in continental Europe of the term “Apothecary” might be closer to being ideal. But the historical term for pharmacies in the US, “drug store”, which remains in use at present, seems to be the most appropriate, although even here I’m sure we could find something etymologically troubling if we looked with sufficient zeal (especially in the modern context given the problem of illicit drugs).

**That is not even taking into account the contemporary usage of “wise guy” in the US to refer to members of organized crime, or more broadly, to people who are unethically clever, which is novel in its specifics, but more generally well-established with regards to its derogatory context.
Some scholars claim that the Magi were either familiar with the Jewish teaching of the Messiah or that they were decedents of Jews that never returned to Israel.
 
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The Liturgist

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Some scholars claim that the Magi were either familiar with the Jewish teaching of the Messiah or that they were decedents of Jews that never returned to Israel.

Well, the Gospel text refers to them as μάγος which can mean either sorcerer or Zoroastrian cleric, and for the reasons I explained above the sorcerer definition is inappropriate (furthermore, since they came from the Esst, this implies the Persian Empire, which also included the former Babylonian empire, however, its hereditary clergy were usually called Chaldeans. Furthermore the word μάγος is itself of Persian origin being derived from the Old Persian meaning “mgs” and believed to have been pronounced Magus, from which the word Mobed, referring to the Zoroastrian clergy, is derived (from the Classical Persian مغبد “Mobad” from the Middle Persian , which refers specifically to “priests”, that is to say, sacerdos, of the Zoroastrian religion.

By the way, if the cuneiform, Middle Persian and Farsi characters I posted are missing, it is due to a text encoding issue; they display fine on my Mac, but Apple products have proper UTF-8 and UTF-16 support for Unicode characters as well as a rich preloaded set of languages, and I’m pretty sure Windows 10 does as well (I will have to check; I know Windows NT supported UTF-16 from the start, so it should in theory at least), and Linux certainly does (indeed I wouldn’t be surprised if someone compiles a Linux distribution in such an obscure language; stranger things have been known to happen.

Now were it not for the specifically Zoroastrian nature of the word Magi, I would find the idea of them being Jews from the Persian Empire somewhat interesting, but alas, the exceedingly Iranian etymology of the word used in the Gospel makes that highly unlikely.
 
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Well, the Gospel text refers to them as μάγος which can mean either sorcerer or Zoroastrian cleric, and for the reasons I explained above the sorcerer definition is inappropriate (furthermore, since they came from the Esst, this implies the Persian Empire, which also included the former Babylonian empire, however, its hereditary clergy were usually called Chaldeans. Furthermore the word μάγος is itself of Persian origin being derived from the Old Persian meaning “mgs” and believed to have been pronounced Magus, from which the word Mobed, referring to the Zoroastrian clergy, is derived (from the Classical Persian مغبد “Mobad” from the Middle Persian , which refers specifically to “priests”, that is to say, sacerdos, of the Zoroastrian religion.

By the way, if the cuneiform, Middle Persian and Farsi characters I posted are missing, it is due to a text encoding issue; they display fine on my Mac, but Apple products have proper UTF-8 and UTF-16 support for Unicode characters as well as a rich preloaded set of languages, and I’m pretty sure Windows 10 does as well (I will have to check; I know Windows NT supported UTF-16 from the start, so it should in theory at least), and Linux certainly does (indeed I wouldn’t be surprised if someone compiles a Linux distribution in such an obscure language; stranger things have been known to happen.

Now were it not for the specifically Zoroastrian nature of the word Magi, I would find the idea of them being Jews from the Persian Empire somewhat interesting, but alas, the exceedingly Iranian etymology of the word used in the Gospel makes that highly unlikely.
You are probably right, but I liked the idea of them being a bit Jewish. However, it highlight that Jesus came for all.
 
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Thanks for the reference, but I am not focusing on only December 25. It is the general season of days getting longer rather than shorter and hoping for spring. To deny that people kiss under mistletoe, decorate things with holly, exchange gifts, and many other things did not have some origin in pagan practices seems strange.
It is not strange, because they do not appear to come from paganism.

Now, for any claim of "this Christmas tradition comes from paganism" to be plausible, first the following things must be demonstrated:
1) This was in fact a pagan tradition
2) That it developed as a Christian tradition at a time it could have possibly taken it from paganism

If #1 and #2 are established, then and only then can there even be the possibility of pagan borrowing. Thus they must be shown to be the case. Sometimes people just make up claims of what pagans did (hence why they never point to primary sources of any kind), so evidence needs to be provided to clear #1. And with #2, we run into the problem that a whole lot of Christmas traditions are really only the creation of the last 500, or even last 200, years, long after paganism had gone extinct.

So let's take a look at the tradition of kissing under the mistletoe. I have seen no one ever provide evidence that there was ever any such tradition among pagans. Certainly one can find mentions of mistletoe, but not any tradition of kissing under it. So we already have failed #1, it seems.

Next we come to the question of when it developed as a Christmas tradition. I have not seen anyone point to any reference to it prior to the 18th century. By that point, paganism had been dead for centuries upon centuries in Europe. What pagans were there to take this tradition from? There weren't any! So even if one could point to a tradition of pagans kissing under the mistletoe, which again has not been demonstrated by anyone as far as I am aware (people will of course claim they did, but never offer evidence), there is too large of a gap between that and the Christmas tradition for any connection to be possible. Thus it also fails #2.

So both #1 and #2 are required for this to work, but mistletoe fails both.

Unlike mistletoe, gift exchange does not fail #1, as there were plenty of pagan celebrations that involved gift giving (of course, one can find various giving of gifts in the Bible itself too). However, it fails #2, because like kissing under mistletoe, gift giving did not become a tradition of Christmas until much later (I believe it emerged around the 16th century, though it didn't become a staple until later on I don't think), too late for any pagan influence to be the cause.

Holly I am less sure about, so I cannot say whether it passes #1 or #2. But I have some doubts. I have seen some sources that seem at least somewhat reputable claim it was used during Saturnalia, but they still don't give any primary documentation. So if someone is going to posit holly, they need to first offer that documentation, and then also that it arose early enough in Christmas for it to come from this tradition. If someone is able to demonstrate #1 and #2 for holly I could reconsider, but until that point I see little reason to see it as any more plausible than the already debunked claims.
 
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Your own reference refers back to Norse mythology in relation to mistletoe, Baldur, and Frigg, and it being a symbol of love. These Norse legions were well-known by Victorians, and you can see their influence in Romantic literature of the time. As for evergreens, they are a symbol of life, particularly in the dead of winter. Since pagan religions celebrate the cycle of life and the earth, you can’t separate out the turn of the seasons from the “death” and rebirth of life on earth, which mixes well with the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, which was my point. It was natural to combine the two sets of symbols in the celebration of Christmas near winter solstice. Therefore, there is no reason to not celebrate Christmas, because it has pagan elements. It is like saying that the metamorphosis of butterflies can’t be a metaphor for the resurrection. I have already conceded that the pagan/Christian mix was probably not intentional based on the excellent posts by the Liturgist.
Except Prodromos's link says:

In many tellings, Frigg declares the mistletoe to be a symbol of love after her son’s death and promises to kiss anyone who passed underneath it. If that’s an accurate version of the story, it would be clear how it directly connects to the romantic act of today. Historian Mark Forsyth says this is not actually the way the story ends, however. Forsyth is the author of A Christmas Cornucopia: The Hidden Stories Behind Our Yuletide Traditions, and examined four Norse accounts of the god’s murder and the events that followed. “Baldur’s death involves mistletoe, but it’s got nothing to do with kissing or Christmas,” he tells TIME.

So it mentions it being a symbol of love "in many tellings" but then immediately notes that's not how it actually went in Norse mythology.

This is an example of what one sometimes sees: After some tradition is developed, past stories that have some partial relation get retrofitted in later tellings to include them. So it seems that the original story in which Balder is killed by mistletoe didn't have any mention of kissing at all. But at some point after the connection between kissing and mistletoe was popularly established, it got added in to later retellings of the story.

An excellent example of this is the story of St. Boniface and Donar Oak. St. Boniface was a missionary who, according to an 8th century written after his death, at one point cut down a tree that was regarded as sacred by the pagans. He was stated to have fallen the tree so easily that it was taken as a miracle and led to pagans converting, and the wood from the tree was used to build a church.

And that's all that was documented in the original source, which is conveniently provided in translation on that page. However, later on--much later on--a new wrinkle got added in some retellings of the story where after he cut down the tree, a fir tree miraculously sprung up from its stump, and (according to these retellings) this is where the Christmas tree came from. This addition to the story has not been demonstrated to go back any farther than the late 19th century. So what happened here was that, after the Christmas tree had caught on as a major tradition of Christmas (the Christmas tree appears to have emerged in the 16th century, though it was only later that it gained great popularity), this old story about St. Boniface got retrofitted to include a mention of it in a retelling, which then spread to subsequent retellings and became a part of the story popularly known, even though it is not at all in our original source and did not show up until over a thousand years later.

The same basic thing appears to have occurred with this Balder story. If someone can point to this story about Frigg declaring it a symbol of love and promising to kiss people who pass underneath it being recorded prior to the mistletoe Christmas tradition, then this could be reconsidered--but I expect there is no such reference, and it was simply a retrofitting.
 
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prodromos

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Your own reference refers back to Norse mythology in relation to mistletoe, Baldur, and Frigg, and it being a symbol of love.
To quote the site I linked:
In many tellings, Frigg declares the mistletoe to be a symbol of love after her son’s death and promises to kiss anyone who passed underneath it. If that’s an accurate version of the story, it would be clear how it directly connects to the romantic act of today. Historian Mark Forsyth says this is not actually the way the story ends, however.​

So as @JSRG has pointed out, there seems to be no evidence that kissing under mistletoe was actually a pagan tradition.

[Edit] I should have refreshed the thread before responding. @JSRG said it much better than I [/edit]
 
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Firstly, my post was not a defense, but an authoritative statement of fact.

Secondly, I would assume that since the verses I referred to were rather obvious that providing such verses would come across as condescending and patronizing, since everyone here is familiar with the Gospel accounts of the Nativity and the words of our Lord on those who confess Him and the discussions of martyrdom in Acts and Revelation that I referred to.

Concordantly, since your remark was about how you reckoned you could influence tradition, and my response was an authoritative statement concerning the divinely guided Holy Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communities, which is immutable, and which has never undergone a material change pertaining to doctrine or worship, so that our worship today is in all essential characteristics unchanged from how it was in the first millennium, the main difference being more martyrs and also slightly more use of the color blue in the holy icons (and other benefits of material prosperity in the Western countries; conversely the churches in Islamic-occupied areas have in many cases deteriorated, with the notable exceptions of Egypt, the Holy Land and Lebanon), the issue of the actual inclusion of verses that refer to very well known pericopes of Scripture pertaining to the Annunciation, the Nativity, martyrdom and confessors, etc, is a red herring.
Sorry, I don't acknowledge your traditions. I only deal with Bible verses because that is my authority. I know the Bible, and there is no explicit command in the New Testament to celebrate Christ's birth every year.
 
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Strong in Him

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Sorry, I don't acknowledge your traditions. I only deal with Bible verses because that is my authority. I know the Bible, and there is no explicit command in the New Testament to celebrate Christ's birth every year.
There is no explicit commandment in the NT to own, and use, a computer, smartphone or tv set.
There is no explicit command to own one particular translation of the Bible or assume that it is better than the others.
There is no explicit command to go to Bible college or go into a particular type of ministry.
There is no explicit command for the traditional daily "quiet time"; using Bible notes to read a small portion of Scripture. Nor to read Christian testimonies and books about Christian living, devotions and theology.
There is no explicit command to go to church on a Sunday and sit and listen to something that someone else has prepared.
There is no specific command to observe Shrove Tuesday, Ash Wednesday, Lent, Advent or Pentecost. But thousands of us do and are blessed by the observance.

The point is, why insist on a specific Biblical command before doing/allowing something?
Christ's nativity - the amazing story of God coming to us; the Word made flesh - is described in Scripture. Angels, and a star, announced this unique, historical event which changed society. Shepherds heard the announcement and saw the sign; Magi came from afar to pay homage.
If Christians want to set aside a certain time each year to remember, learn from and celebrate this; why not? I think we're probably all intelligent enough to know that it's not about flying reindeer, snowmen, decorating trees and eating and drinking too much.
 
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Jerry N.

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Except Prodromos's link says:

In many tellings, Frigg declares the mistletoe to be a symbol of love after her son’s death and promises to kiss anyone who passed underneath it. If that’s an accurate version of the story, it would be clear how it directly connects to the romantic act of today. Historian Mark Forsyth says this is not actually the way the story ends, however. Forsyth is the author of A Christmas Cornucopia: The Hidden Stories Behind Our Yuletide Traditions, and examined four Norse accounts of the god’s murder and the events that followed. “Baldur’s death involves mistletoe, but it’s got nothing to do with kissing or Christmas,” he tells TIME.

So it mentions it being a symbol of love "in many tellings" but then immediately notes that's not how it actually went in Norse mythology.

This is an example of what one sometimes sees: After some tradition is developed, past stories that have some partial relation get retrofitted in later tellings to include them. So it seems that the original story in which Balder is killed by mistletoe didn't have any mention of kissing at all. But at some point after the connection between kissing and mistletoe was popularly established, it got added in to later retellings of the story.

An excellent example of this is the story of St. Boniface and Donar Oak. St. Boniface was a missionary who, according to an 8th century written after his death, at one point cut down a tree that was regarded as sacred by the pagans. He was stated to have fallen the tree so easily that it was taken as a miracle and led to pagans converting, and the wood from the tree was used to build a church.

And that's all that was documented in the original source, which is conveniently provided in translation on that page. However, later on--much later on--a new wrinkle got added in some retellings of the story where after he cut down the tree, a fir tree miraculously sprung up from its stump, and (according to these retellings) this is where the Christmas tree came from. This addition to the story has not been demonstrated to go back any farther than the late 19th century. So what happened here was that, after the Christmas tree had caught on as a major tradition of Christmas (the Christmas tree appears to have emerged in the 16th century, though it was only later that it gained great popularity), this old story about St. Boniface got retrofitted to include a mention of it in a retelling, which then spread to subsequent retellings and became a part of the story popularly known, even though it is not at all in our original source and did not show up until over a thousand years later.

The same basic thing appears to have occurred with this Balder story. If someone can point to this story about Frigg declaring it a symbol of love and promising to kiss people who pass underneath it being recorded prior to the mistletoe Christmas tradition, then this could be reconsidered--but I expect there is no such reference, and it was simply a retrofitting.
“Retrofitting” seems to be a good word for the return of pagan elements in Christmas traditions. Santa Claus is a good example of shadows of Dionysus and Bacchus and Germanic figures of pagan folklore. Understanding the connection between Frigg’s declaration of mistletoe being a symbol of love and the tradition of kissing under it does not require scholarly research, because the normal desires of young people will work just fine. Anyway, I still don’t see how one could deny pagan elements in Christmas traditions retrofitted or otherwise. I’m just saying some are bad and some are harmless, but their existence should not stop Christians from celebrating Christmas.
 
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Strong in Him

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“Retrofitting” seems to be a good word for the return of pagan elements in Christmas traditions. Santa Claus is a good example of shadows of Dionysus and Bacchus and Germanic figures of pagan folklore.
Saint Nicholas - Sinterklaas in Dutch - was a Christian bishop who helped the poor. He often did good deeds for them, bought gifts, gave money etc, in secret, without them knowing about it. In his tradition, bishops wore red cassocks.

Like many things, Santa Claus was based on a real character and real events, but has become embellished over time.
 
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Jerry N.

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Saint Nicholas - Sinterklaas in Dutch - was a Christian bishop who helped the poor. He often did good deeds for them, bought gifts, gave money etc, in secret, without them knowing about it. In his tradition, bishops wore red cassocks.

Like many things, Santa Claus was based on a real character and real events, but has become embellished over time.
Those embellishments (often pagan) come from Dickens, Clement Clarke Moore, The Wild Man of Germanic folklore, and Coca Cola and others. All were inspired directly of indirectly by mythology. There were actually two real St. Nickolas saints to inspire the idea of Santa: one in Holland, and one in Turkey.
 
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David Lamb

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How do you draw a line between history and tradition? There is a line, but it is not clear. Pick just about any event, and you will find that we don’t have all the facts written down by perfectly reliable sources. We hopefully try to compose a narrative of events with the best information we have. The names and number of Magi visiting Jesus have the purpose of helping people visualize the event. It probably got reinforced with Mystery Plays. George Washington may or may not have chopped down a cherry tree, but Americans eat cherry pie to celebrate and focus on Washington’s honesty. The traditional names of Magi are rather harmless and have enhanced the Christmas celebrations.
Historical records exist. As far as I am aware, there is no historical record that tells as the names or the number of the wise men. You say such things are harmless, but they can lead to believing all sorts of things which are not true. Imagining Jesus as a baby being placed in a cosy cot filled with lovely soft straw, rather than the manger or animal feeding trough the bible talks about gives a false idea of the great humiliation involved in Jesus Christ becoming Man, for instance.
 
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prodromos

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Anyway, I still don’t see how one could deny pagan elements in Christmas traditions retrofitted or otherwise.
It's actually pretty easy. As @JSRG pointed out, it has to
  1. Be shown to have actually been a pagan practice, and
  2. Become a Christian practice at the time it was a pagan practice
Only then can it even be considered a possibility.
 
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