Why does Col 1:16-20 take a back seat to ECT ?

[Jeff Saunders]

Col 1:16-20 Because in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible as well as the invisible ( whether Thrones or Lordships or Archons or Powers ) ; all things were created through him and for him; And he is before all things, and all things hold together in him, And he is the head of the body, of the assembly- who is the origin , firstborn from the dead, so that he might himself hold first place in all things- For in him all the Fullness was pleased to take up a dwelling, And through him to reconcile all things to him, making peace by the blood of his cross[ through him], whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Why do you who hold to ECT believe that your view of scripture trumps this view that God/Jesus will reconcile all that was made to himself ? If even one person is not reconciled then this verse is false. Why do the scriptures that you believe teach ECT trump this and other verses that say God/Jesus will reconcile all things to himself?

 

[Clare73]

Col 1:16-20 Because in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible as well as the invisible ( whether Thrones or Lordships or Archons or Powers ) ; all things were created through him and for him; And he is before all things, and all things hold together in him, And he is the head of the body, of the assembly- who is the origin , firstborn from the dead, so that he might himself hold first place in all things- For in him all the Fullness was pleased to take up a dwelling, And through him to reconcile all things to him, making peace by the blood of his cross[ through him], whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Why do you who hold to ECT believe that your view of scripture trumps this view that God/Jesus will reconcile all that was made to himself ? If even one person is not reconciled then this verse is false. Why do the scriptures that you believe teach ECT trump this and other verses that say God/Jesus will reconcile all things to himself?

What is ECT?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

What is ECT?

Eternal Conscience Torment

 

[David Lamb]

Col 1:16-20 Because in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible as well as the invisible ( whether Thrones or Lordships or Archons or Powers ) ; all things were created through him and for him; And he is before all things, and all things hold together in him, And he is the head of the body, of the assembly- who is the origin , firstborn from the dead, so that he might himself hold first place in all things- For in him all the Fullness was pleased to take up a dwelling, And through him to reconcile all things to him, making peace by the blood of his cross[ through him], whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Why do you who hold to ECT believe that your view of scripture trumps this view that God/Jesus will reconcile all that was made to himself ? If even one person is not reconciled then this verse is false. Why do the scriptures that you believe teach ECT trump this and other verses that say God/Jesus will reconcile all things to himself?

I suggest that we can end up making the bible say anything of we ignore context. In this case, we only need look at the next but one chapter of Colossians to see that Paul cannot in Chapter 1 have been saying what you suggest:

“Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.” (Col 3:5-7 NKJV)

 

[ozso]

What is ECT?

Hell. This is a universal reconciliation thread.

 

[ozso]

I suggest that we can end up making the bible say anything of we ignore context. In this case, we only need look at the next but one chapter of Colossians to see that Paul cannot in Chapter 1 have been saying what you suggest:

“Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.” (Col 3:5-7 NKJV)

How does that rule out eventual reconciliation?

 

[David Lamb]

How does that rule out eventual reconciliation?

By itself it doesn't, but the bible does talk elsewhere about condemnation. For instance:

“"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."” (Joh 3:36 NKJV)

“"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Mt 25:41 NKJV)

“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” (2Th 1:9 NKJV)

“"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NKJV)

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I suggest that we can end up making the bible say anything of we ignore context. In this case, we only need look at the next but one chapter of Colossians to see that Paul cannot in Chapter 1 have been saying what you suggest:

“Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.” (Col 3:5-7 NKJV)

What part is out of context? Did Jesus not create all things? Were not all things created through him and for him ? Is he not before all things and he holds all things together? Is he not the head of the body of the assembly? So these are true but the verse that he says that " Through him to reconcile all things to himself " , that part is taken out of context? NO this is not out of context, these are all true statements of truth and fact. Reconciliation is when the two side are reconciled, not when only a few will be reconciled. Are all reconciled in this age? No but God is not bound by time he has all eternity to pursue each person till ALL are reconciled. If all are not reconciled, then does that mean Jesus did not create all things, and does he not hold all things together, were all things not created for him, or is it only the reconciliation of all that is out of context? If you don't believe all will be reconciled , then maybe the idea that Jesus only reconciles a few is out of context.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

By itself it doesn't, but the bible does talk elsewhere about condemnation. For instance:

“"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."” (Joh 3:36 NKJV)

“"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Mt 25:41 NKJV)

“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” (2Th 1:9 NKJV)

“"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NKJV)

John 3:36 Yes you do not see life till you have been reconciled, so no problem there.
MT 25:41 aionion fire , fire of the age not eternal.
2 TH 1:9 aionion destruction not everlasting.
MT 25:46 kolasin aionion kolasin is punishment for correction unto the age .
If translated correctly there is no problem for reconciliation of all but it takes multiple ages for this to be complete, Rev 17:8 says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, but we know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross till around 32 AD, In the cross Jesus paid the price of reconciliation of all but its not fulfilled till 1Cor 15:28 when " God will be all in all when every knee will have bowed and every tongue will confess [ the very thing that all will do to be saved] .
You must understand the ages and also have a non Latin translation but Greek translation of aionion for this to make sense.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Hell. This is a universal reconciliation thread.

No not hell, which is found no place in scripture, but the idea that God abandons his children and torchers them for all eternity [ which most on the forum believe] over all the scriptures that plainly speak that God has a plan to reconcile all his creation.

 

[ozso]

No not hell, which is found no place in scripture, but the idea that God abandons his children and torchers them for all eternity [ which most on the forum believe] over all the scriptures that plainly speak that God has a plan to reconcile all his creation.

I hear you, but most call it hell.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I hear you, but most call it hell.

Tradition is a hard thing to go against.

 

[David Lamb]

John 3:36 Yes you do not see life till you have been reconciled, so no problem there.

No suggestion there of future reconciliation - the word translated "abides" indicates that God's wrath remains, or abides.

MT 25:41 aionion fire , fire of the age not eternal.
2 TH 1:9 aionion destruction not everlasting.
MT 25:46 kolasin aionion kolasin is punishment for correction unto the age .
If translated correctly there is no problem for reconciliation of all but it takes multiple ages for this to be complete, Rev 17:8 says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, but we know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross till around 32 AD, In the cross Jesus paid the price of reconciliation of all but its not fulfilled till 1Cor 15:28 when " God will be all in all when every knee will have bowed and every tongue will confess [ the very thing that all will do to be saved] .

1 Corinthians 15:28 says:

“Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co 15:28 NKJV)

The context shows that that verse is talking about enemies of Christ:

“For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.” (1Co 15:25-26 NKJV)

Death is certainly not saved:

“Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Re 20:14 NKJV)

You must understand the ages and also have a non Latin translation but Greek translation of aionion for this to make sense.

But the Greek word can also mean eternal:

“"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.” (Joh 3:15 NKJV)

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No suggestion there of future reconciliation - the word translated "abides" indicates that God's wrath remains, or abides.


1 Corinthians 15:28 says:

“Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co 15:28 NKJV)

The context shows that that verse is talking about enemies of Christ:

“For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.” (1Co 15:25-26 NKJV)

Death is certainly not saved:

“Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Re 20:14 NKJV)

But the Greek word can also mean eternal:

“"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.” (Joh 3:15 NKJV)

AS for future reconciliation Isaiah 45:23 /Rom 14:11/ Phil 2:10-11 all say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. The Greek word for confess is a gladly willing agreement not a forced acknowledgement. This does not happen in this age so unless scripture is false it must happen in the ages to come which is in the future. There are no scriptures that say you can only be reconciled while in the temporary mortal body, only that if you so not confess while in the mortal body you will face judgement, over and over we see God judge to lead to repentance.
1 Cor 15:28 How is God all in all if most people he creates he torchers for all eternity, that sounds like a cruel joke if true.
As far as death being saved, death is not a person its a condition and death will be destroyed and be no more, unless you believe in ECT then death and sin continue forever they never end. That is why Christian universal redemption is the only camp that takes sin and death seriously , we believe that God will do as he says and destroy completely death and sin , not stick it in the corner and pretend it does not exist.
Joh 3:15 aionios life is the life of the age, does it go beyond the ages yes but not because aionion means eternal but because life is only in Jesus and when we are in that life with Jesus , because Jesus is eternal so is our life. WE believe Jesus when He said he came to seek and save the lost and He did not fail in that mission. We do not believe that Jesus was the potential savor but affirm the declaration that Jesus is the savior of the world and he will get 100% of what he paid for because God will not be robbed.