Unlimited Atonement

[rturner76]

The real sin is not thinking the Lord is capable of saving right?

 

[Hammster]

The real sin is not thinking the Lord is capable of saving right?

No, I don't think that's the real sin.

 

[iLogos]

Isn't that sin?

No

Let me save us both some time since I know where your going.

Therefore monergism is said to lead to the conclusion that God does not in fact love every human being or want to save every person. By contrast, Synergists maintain that God does not save certain individuals because they do not desire to be saved. According to them, God will not force His will or His forgiveness on those who do not desire it.

Opponents claim that there is no writing in Church literature prior to Augustine which can be construed in a monergist way. Even afterward, the Eastern Orthodox have remained firmly synergistic.

 

[iLogos]

The Parable of the Talents

Matthew 25:14 “For it is like a man going on a journey, who summoned his slaves 16 and entrusted his property to them. 25:15 To 17 one he gave five talents, 18 to another two, and to another one, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 25:16 The one who had received five talents went off right away and put his money to work 19 and gained five more. 25:17 In the same way, the one who had two gained two more. 25:18 But the one who had received one talent went out and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money in it. 25:19 After 20 a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled his accounts with them. 25:20 The 21 one who had received the five talents came and brought five more, saying, ‘Sir, 22 you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ 25:21 His master answered, 23 ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 25:22 The 24 one with the two talents also came and said, ‘Sir, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more.’ 25:23 His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 25:24 Then the one who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Sir, I knew that you were a hard man, harvesting where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed, 25:25 so 25 I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 25:26 But his master answered, 26 ‘Evil and lazy slave! So you knew that I harvest where I didn’t sow and gather where I didn’t scatter? 25:27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, 27 and on my return I would have received my money back with interest! 28 25:28 Therefore take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. 29 25:29 For the one who has will be given more, 30 and he will have more than enough. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 31 25:30 And throw that worthless slave into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[iLogos]

Does any one know the number of people Christ died for? Would he have suffered any less for one less person? Or any more for one more person? Or was his death sufficient for any number of people?

What is the Atonement? How can it be limited to a number of people? Like the Sun that shines it's light on our planet, it nourishes all the plants on earth. And if there were only one plant, would there be any less sun light? Was not Jesus the Light of this world?

So who puts any limits on the Atonement? Is it not man? Surely God's Atonement is as infinite as God is! Is the same even if it was for just one saved person, or saving the whole world. Is Unlimited, Infinite!

And should some perish by the way side, does that mean the sun failed? Was not it's light for all? And who caused the fail? God or man? I believe man caused his own fail.

 

[iLogos]

(Matt 4:17 [NKJV])
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Repent: G3340 μετανοέω metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) v.
1. to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction)

literally: to change your mind.

Notice our Lord instructed others to repent, not that he would be doing the repenting in them for them since they can't do it.

 

[Hammster]

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Jesus gives a command to believe. If someone doesn't believe, that is disobedience to God. Disobedience is a sin.

 

[iLogos]

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Jesus gives a command to believe. If someone doesn't believe, that is disobedience to God. Disobedience is a sin.

Who was the command to believe given too?

 

[Hammster]

(Matt 4:17 [NKJV])
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."


Repent: G3340 ???????? metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) v.
1. to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction)

literally: to change your mind.

Notice our Lord instructed others to repent, not that he would be doing the repenting in them for them since they can't do it.

Repenting is also a command. To not repent is a sin. And according to you, it's a sin that is paid for for all.

 

[Hammster]

No

Let me save us both some time since I know where your going.

Therefore monergism is said to lead to the conclusion that God does not in fact love every human being or want to save every person. By contrast, Synergists maintain that God does not save certain individuals because they do not desire to be saved. According to them, God will not force His will or His forgiveness on those who do not desire it.

Opponents claim that there is no writing in Church literature prior to Augustine which can be construed in a monergist way. Even afterward, the Eastern Orthodox have remained firmly synergistic.

BTW, this really has nothing to do with where I'm going.

 

[iLogos]

Repenting is also a command. To not repent is a sin. And according to you, it's a sin that is paid for for all.

Often misquote? I said no such thing.

 

[iLogos]

Ezekiel 18:21 “But if the wicked person turns from all the sin he has committed and observes all my statutes and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 18:22 None of the sins he has committed will be held 30 against him; because of the righteousness he has done, he will live. 18:23 Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign Lord? Do I not prefer that he turn from his wicked conduct and live?

18:24 “But if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing according to all the abominable practices the wicked carry out, will he live? All his righteous acts will not be remembered; because of the unfaithful acts he has done and the sin he has committed, he will die. 31

The hoops one must jump thru to be a Calvinist

The Truth is plain to see!

 

[Hammster]

Ezekiel 18:21 "But if the wicked person turns from all the sin he has committed and observes all my statutes and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 18:22 None of the sins he has committed will be held 30 against him; because of the righteousness he has done, he will live. 18:23 Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign Lord? Do I not prefer that he turn from his wicked conduct and live?

18:24 "But if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing according to all the abominable practices the wicked carry out, will he live? All his righteous acts will not be remembered; because of the unfaithful acts he has done and the sin he has committed, he will die. 31

The hoops one must jump thru to be a Calvinist

The Truth is plain to see!

Ooh. An insult. Expected.

I think you see something here that you think connects to the atonement. It would be beneficial to all of you could lay it out.

 

[Hammster]

Often misquote? I said no such thing.

"Yes Jesus Christ died and was raised from the dead the third day for every one's sins, past, present and future! Amazing! Remarkable! Unthinkable! But True!"

I believe I got this off of one of your posts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[nobdysfool]

(Matt 4:17 [NKJV])
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Repent: G3340 μετανοέω metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) v.
1. to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction)

literally: to change your mind.

Notice our Lord instructed others to repent, not that he would be doing the repenting in them for them since they can't do it.

Well, since Calvinism doesn't teach that God repents for you, or believes for you, looks like you're missing the point. Sooner or later the ones who oppose Calvinism drag out that old canard.

 

[Skala]

Forsake of argument, lets say Augustine was not the first,

then lets assume that Ambrose (who?) started questioning the Atonement the first year he was born at 339. That still means no record of any one questioning it for the first 339 years Until Ambrose was born.

How about the NT writers who clearly taught and believed Limited Atonement?

Also, John 3:16 doesn't mention the scope of the atonement, only it's intent: "so that whoever believes (all who believe) will not perish, but have eternal life"

The intent is not "so that everyone will not perish, but have eternal life"

The intent of the cross (and therefore, the scope) is to save believers only. Some of the human race only. Not everyone. That's a limited atonement.

To affirm Unlimited atonement is to say that the intent and scope of the cross is to try to save everyone without exception.

The fact that it was never meant to merely try to save everyone, but rather, to actually save believers only proves it is a limited atonement. It saves some of the human race, not all of it.

 

[Skala]

To me, it's weird that Arminians believe in Unlimited Atonement at all. Let me explain.

Unlimited Atonement says that God is trying to save everyone.

However, Arminian theology is clear that God foreknows believers (and by necessity, foreknows who unbelievers are, too)

The Bible is clear that Christ came to save believers only. Even in John 17 Christ prayed to the Father on the behalf of "everyone who will believe on me".

Thus, in Arminianism, God foreknew who would believe, and sent Christ to save them. Why would God send Christ to try to save those he knows for a fact will not believe (being that he foreknows who will remain in unbelief?)

What does Arminian/synergistic theology gain from saying that Christ is trying to save everyone, even though Christ already knew from eternity past who would believe?

Why would God Almighty set himself up for failure, being all knowing? Why would the Trinity be at odds with itself? The Father elects believers only, but the Son dies for everyone? So the Son is frustrated by the Father's efforts. The Father is frustrated by the Son's efforts.

It seems even Unlimited Atonement is inconsistent with Arminian theology. But then again, Arminians were never very consistent were they

 

[iLogos]

So how many people did Jesus die for on the Cross?

If you died for one less person would he have suffered less, or if he died for one more person would he have suffered more? Or was his sacrifice sufficient for every one?

 

[Hammster]

So how many people did Jesus die for on the Cross?

If you died for one less person would he have suffered less, or if he died for one more person would he have suffered more? Or was his sacrifice sufficient for every one?

Sufficient for all.

 

[Skala]

So how many people did Jesus die for on the Cross?

If you died for one less person would he have suffered less, or if he died for one more person would he have suffered more? Or was his sacrifice sufficient for every one?

His sacrifice perfectly secured salvation. He had a 100% success rate. Not a single person Jesus died for will end up in hell - for their sins are paid for and he secured everything they need for salvation, like their regeneration, faith, and repentance.

Salvation is literally wrapped up in Jesus Christ's work alone.

Everything we need for our full and complete redemption is supplied by God. And it was all of grace.

God provided my:

atonement
faith
repentance
regeneration
obedience
etc..

If you'd like to say that man provides some of those, and God provides some of the others, then that's fine. But me, I know my own sinfulness, therefore the only possible way I could be saved is if God provides everything for me. I cannot rely on myself to bring anything to the table. I have nothing to boast about. I cannot take any credit for any part of my salvation.

If you think of yourself better than I, that you provided some of the things you need for salvation, then I applaud you, and that's fine. But this is what I think of myself.