Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?

[bèlla]

... that's an awful prospect to think about, but in my view, no guy who does this can actually "be" a Christian in my estimation.

Anyone who enters another's home is playing Russian roulette. And I'd posit the primary consideration for them is their safety. They're not having a moral dialogue within themselves. They're assessing the situation and the best way to resolve it.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

Or is it to get the dying to the hospitals, comfort the wounded, the orphans and the widows, of whom there would most certainly be an abundance.

It's a good question to put to myself, I hope others are doing it as well.

That's highly dependent on your location and the level of violence in the vicinity. It's an unlikely scenario in urban areas and more calamitous if authorities aren't involved. If you're on your own you're closing the curtains, turning off the light, laying low and hoping to ride it out. You're not in the fray unless you're defending your home or willing to get hurt. Few will do the latter if others are depending on them. That only happens in films.

~bella

 

[Yarddog]

Thread title.

The question is intended to be open-ended and vague to invite a wide range of possible answers and discussion.

-CryptoLutheran

I hate the idea that killing could be acceptable but I could see that it may be necessary to saving an innocent person.

 

[Laodicean60]

Unlawful entry with force.

I would blow him away if someone threatened my family. But now it's just the Wife, kids are gone.

 

[Ace777]

I believe there's times when use of force is justified, the founders of this country argued for just war...

Depends on what you mean by force. In basic training they teach hand to hand combat and how to defend yourself. They teach if you want to mess someone up you can but you do not have to. This was a big problem in Germany when the soldiers would get drunk and mess each other up. They ended up having to issue a knife that was difficult to open when you are drunk. So that they person you want to attack has plenty of opportunity to take your weapon away from you. We actually train quite a bit in disarming the enemy. They would give us some padded sticks and we would go at it. We did not hurt each other just wear each other down.

Jesus said He came to bring a sword. But He also said that if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. For me of course we have to be ready to defend ourselves. Usually if you are going to put up a fight they will leave you alone. It is to easy to turn their aggression against themselves.

Perhaps the use of force you talk about has to do with when we used the atomic bomb to end ww2. They were convinced that they were saving lives by ending the war when and the way they did. Do not know how to prove something like that. But that was the belief at the time.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Depends on what you mean by force. In basic training they teach hand to hand combat and how to defend yourself. They teach if you want to mess someone up you can but you do not have to. This was a big problem in Germany when the soldiers would get drunk and mess each other up. They ended up having to issue a knife that was difficult to open when you are drunk. So that they person you want to attack has plenty of opportunity to take your weapon away from you. We actually train quite a bit in disarming the enemy. They would give us some padded sticks and we would go at it. We did not hurt each other just wear each other down.

Jesus said He came to bring a sword. But He also said that if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. For me of course we have to be ready to defend ourselves. Usually if you are going to put up a fight they will leave you alone. It is to easy to turn their aggression against themselves.

Perhaps the use of force you talk about has to do with when we used the atomic bomb to end ww2. They were convinced that they were saving lives by ending the war when and the way they did. Do not know how to prove something like that. But that was the belief at the time.

For myself personally all of this is purely hypothetical because even in the worst imaginable scenario in this country there's no scenario either I or my husband would be leaving our mountain... I'm disabled and my husband's arthritis is so bad he may as well be - so even in a total collapse of society my husband would only self defense us and our land/home and I'd be busy giving our food to anyone who would ask me - this would be our literal reality but I don't expect the world to find us.

I'm just talking general beliefs really. I believe the passage in Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 sums it up which basically says for everything there's a time which includes war.

If there's another civil war scenario in the country I don't believe the side who has done what was right before God and man first to resolve the issue will be wrong to conduct a war in some very serious scenarios....

But I would hope for peace first.

As for self defense, disarming versus killing - I do neither. My husband however spent his life in security related fields working in the middle east as well as the US so that kind of thing is well within his purview... I don't care about that sort of thing.

 

[Ace777]

that kind of thing is well within his purview

Yes we do not even think about it. I always stand between my wife and any stranger. If they want to get to her they have to go through me. Even they talk about how the man always walks on the street side to protect the wife from a horse of splash of water. I have a friend he saw a piece of broken glass, so he went ahead of his wife to kick it out of her way. For some reason they remembered that because it made him feel good to take good care of the wife. I would think a wife would feel good if you husband takes good care of her.

Is this not the love that Jesus had for us when He went to Calvary for His Bride? He took the bullet for us in our place.

 

[zippy2006]

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?

I would want to ask the rejoinder, "Under what circumstances would it be permissible to kill someone, so long as they are not a Christian?" If the answer is "None" then the OP is really a question about killing, which has nothing to do with Christians one way or another. Ergo: the answer is, "It is permissible to kill a Christian person whenever it is permissible to kill a person."

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's never really acceptable, though it may be a tragic necessity.

 

[Ace777]

which has nothing to do with Christians one way or another.

Jesus tells us to love our enemy. Even sinners love their own. Corrie Tan Boon talks about how the meanest guard in the concentration camp got saved and became a believer. He asked her if she forgave him because he knows that God forgives him. No she did not and it was a struggle for her, but God did a work in her heart and she was able to forgive. They will be spending eternity together were everyone loves everyone.

 

[zippy2006]

Jesus tells us to love our enemy. Even sinners love their own.

You could make that argument, but to incorporate the point I have made you would have to rewrite the title, "Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill?" Not, "Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?" It makes no difference whether the person we are killing is Christian. There is no case where it is permissible to kill someone so long as they are not Christian.

 

[Ace777]

There is no case where it is permissible to kill

The Bible says life is always the right choice. God does not call christians to kill. That is a part of a Governent that God is using to show us how man is not able to govern himself. That is why the ten commandment are in the Ark of the Covenant, along with Arons rod that budded the hidden manna. MAN rejected God's law, His leadership and HIs provision for us.

You are talking about Christians, not Israel. In the New Testament, Jesus emphasized love, forgiveness, and non-violence. Christians interpret these teachings as a shift away from the Old Testament’s military context. Why does Jesus say in Luke 22

36“Now, however,” He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. 37For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me is reaching its fulfillment.”…

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would want to ask the rejoinder, "Under what circumstances would it be permissible to kill someone, so long as they are not a Christian?" If the answer is "None" then the OP is really a question about killing, which has nothing to do with Christians one way or another. Ergo: the answer is, "It is permissible to kill a Christian person whenever it is permissible to kill a person."

It's a valid question about killing anyone. But my emphasis here was intended to reflect on things, such as the Lord Jesus' High Priestly Prayer.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[com7fy8]

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?

There is no reason or excuse for me to kill another Christian. I think Jesus would have me just let someone kill me. I have not found any New Testament scripture which is meant to prepare me to kill anyone.

So, what if I was forced to take military training? I could fire over the heads of the so-called enemy.

"You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you." (James 5:6)

"Now therefore it is an utter failure that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?" (1 Corinthians 6:7)

"But I tell you not to resist an evil person." (Matthew 5:39)

But what if . . . ?

Jesus knows how our Father is able to control what really will happen to us while we do what He means by His word. He will manage what evil people will be able to do to us.

And while we do what the Holy Spirit has us doing, we are able to love the way God has us loving, including >

"without complaining and disputing" (in Philippians 2:14)

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19-20)

"forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (in Ephesians 4:21-32)

 

[zippy2006]

It's a valid question about killing anyone. But my emphasis here was intended to reflect on things, such as the Lord Jesus' High Priestly Prayer.

Okay, but to be clear, it is not a question of pacifism.* It is a question of whether there could ever arise a case where we think about killing someone, but first we must check and see whether they are a Christian, and then if they are not a Christian we can go ahead and 'off them. Your OP seems to assume that there do legitimately arise such cases: that there are cases where we would be permitted to kill someone except for the fact that they are Christian.

* @Ace777 quoted me out of context, which is dishonest and unfortunate.

 

[Ace777]

which is dishonest

People are ALWAYS guilty of what they accuse others of. That is why the Bible says: Do not judge others.

 

[Michael Snow]

Self-defense. To protect another life.

The Question was:

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?​

 

[Michael Snow]

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?​

Someone pointed out the example that such was the case in WWI. (And we still reap the whirl wind that was sown then, WW3 now pending)

If I may address a question outside of that, as to when Christians may kill anyone in war, Charles Spurgeon (as many other Christians) was unequivocally clear on that. See the meme here. I posed a question on that at the Spurgeon Library Conference here in this youtube video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5klg_IC1E&t=2236s

I would like other peoples' take on the responses of Dr. Thomas Kidd and of Dr. Michael Reeves

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, but to be clear, it is not a question of pacifism.* It is a question of whether there could ever arise a case where we think about killing someone, but first we must check and see whether they are a Christian, and then if they are not a Christian we can go ahead and 'off them. Your OP seems to assume that there do legitimately arise such cases: that there are cases where we would be permitted to kill someone except for the fact that they are Christian.

* @Ace777 quoted me out of context, which is dishonest and unfortunate.

My thinking when raising the question was the Lord's High Priestly prayer; and following that the context of how Christian attachments to the temporal powers has resulted in a Church broken by national borders; such that Christians are willing to kill one another if ordered to do so by king and country.

Perhaps I should have offered a more direct question in the OP, however I left it intentionally open and vague for the purpose of seeing what kinds of responses would be given in a more open-ended question and discussion.

To argue my own position: I believe that the Christian's allegiance is always foremost to Christ; and such allegiance to Him as Lord means the unity of the Church in familial affection; and it also means to regard all my neighbors as the objects of my Christian affection. Whether that neighbor is on friendly terms with me, or even if that neighbor is hostile toward me for the Lord commands, "Love your enemy" saying "what does it profit you to only love those who already love you? Do not even the pagans do that?".

So that because of the Christian's allegiance to Christ as his or her Lord, it follows that I am to regard all other people as neighbor toward whom I am compelled to love; this is especially true of those who are also in the household of faith.

So in this I am opposed to violent action in general, and believe in choosing non-violence and non-violent solutions as a matter of moral imperative, and principle. I confess that there can come times when, tragically, violence is necessitated by extraordinary circumstance; in which case it may be justified in order to prohibit greater evil. If I know that someone intends to kill many innocents, and if my only option is to violently stop them, then I believe such is justified. I consider this an extraordinary, rather than ordinary, act however.

As it pertains to larger social conflicts, such as war; I believe that the Christian ought to abstain from swearing a soldier's oath; as our holy fathers did in ancient times and for which they were often subjugated to the cruel tortures of tyrants--through which they gained their martyr's crown.

As St. Cyprian comments, "The whole world is soaked with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not on the plea that they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale." - Epistle to Donatus

Again, the question may be raised in regard to greater evil and social responsibility toward it; hence we can speak of just war doctrine; or perhaps more rightly, permissible war. The great example of our collective memory would the second world war. To which I add one comment and one question:

1) That the temporal powers are right to act to curb evil, as St. Paul writes in Romans ch. 13; and thus should the temporal powers wield the sword in war for that purpose--it can be regarded a justified act. But only insofar as it is, indeed, justified for the purpose of curbing evil.

2) To what degree the Christian may participate; and even more importantly--the Church's witness in the midst of such conflict. For should the Church, who being the catholic Body of Jesus Christ comprised of all nations and subject to no temporal power for she is subject to only Christ her Royal Head and Lord, ought to divide herself along the boundaries of the map; such that the Church when she is found in one place may side with the powers there; and when found in another, may side with the powers there; and thus her children, the Faithful of Jesus Christ and children of God, called to take up arms on behalf of the temporal powers and inflict punishments against one another.

Should we not consider it, in this last question, the utmost absurdity?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Teresa W.]

The Question was:

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?​

Yes.....and I answered the question.