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Under what circumstances is it acceptable for Christians to kill each other?

OnePlanPeopleDestiny

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Deadly force should only be used under the following circumstances:

Self defense: when deadly force (force that could result in death) is used against you, you have the right to employ deadly force in your defense.

Defense of others: same as above, except the deadly force here employed is in defense someone other than yourself, against whom deadly force has been employed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Deadly force should only be used under the following circumstances:

Self defense: when deadly force (force that could result in death) is used against you, you have the right to employ deadly force in your defense.

Defense of others: same as above, except the deadly force here employed is in defense someone other than yourself, against whom deadly force has been employed.

Without disagreeing per se with the first case, how do we reconcile this with Jesus' commandment to turn the other cheek, and the reality and history of the martyrs?

Why didn't Christians fight back during persecution?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OnePlanPeopleDestiny

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Without disagreeing per se with the first case, how do we reconcile this with Jesus' commandment to turn the other cheek, and the reality and history of the martyrs?

Why didn't Christians fight back during persecution?

-CryptoLutheran
Jesus also instructs us to pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands and feet when we sin. Was Jesus speaking literally? If so, many more than the vast majority of us, who profess to be followers of Christ, are without excuse.

When we witness moral evil, such as the attempted murder of yourself or another, is it evil to defend yourself or another from such evil? Think on the recent attempt on the life of DJT: was it evil to kill the assassin after he killed one and injured others and tried to kill DJT?

All Christians from the 1st century to today who were and are brutally killed for their faith were likely overpowered by greater numbers of men and soldiers and haters of God to the point that resisting them was futile. For example: Stephen was mobbed and taken out of the city to be stoned. We don't know whether or to what extent he physically resisted the mob, but we do have his testimony. Also, when Saul left Jerusalem he took with him not only the license given him by the Sanhedrin, but a company of temple guards as a force to effectuate the arrests he planned to make.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus also instructs us to pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands and feet when we sin. Was Jesus speaking literally? If so, many more than the vast majority of us, who profess to be followers of Christ, are without excuse.

When we witness moral evil, such as the attempted murder of yourself or another, is it evil to defend yourself or another from such evil? Think on the recent attempt on the life of DJT: was it evil to kill the assassin after he killed one and injured others and tried to kill DJT?

All Christians from the 1st century to today who were and are brutally killed for their faith were likely overpowered by greater numbers of men and soldiers and haters of God to the point that resisting them was futile. For example: Stephen was mobbed and taken out of the city to be stoned. We don't know whether or to what extent he physically resisted the mob, but we do have his testimony. Also, when Saul left Jerusalem he took with him not only the license given him by the Sanhedrin, but a company of temple guards as a force to effectuate the arrests he planned to make.

Is there a reason you believe Jesus wasn't speaking literally when He said "do not resist an evil person"? It's true that there are times when Jesus employs hyperbolic language, but surely not everything He said was hyperbole.

As for the martyrs, we have a preponderance of testimony about them. So we actually can look to see how they acted, and in many cases they voluntarily chose martyrdom rather than resistance. Here's just one example: St. Ignatius of Antioch, who had been bishop of the church there for many years, succeeding in the ministry left to him by the Apostles Peter and Paul, was arrested and he offered no resistance. Taken in chains from Antioch to Rome, he penned several letters, one of those letters was sent ahead to the Church in Rome, in this letter he tells them not to do anything to win him his freedom, not to resist, not to try and rescue him. Instead he writes that he is ready to accept whatever men or devil throw at him, because here in his last days he sees the opportunity to finally live up to that high calling of being a disciple of Jesus.

Writing around 107 AD,

"I write to the churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless you hinder me. I beseech of you, do not show unseasonable goodwill toward me. Allow me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to go to God. I am God's wheat, and let me be ground by the teeth of wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ. Instead, entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep, I may be of no trouble to anyone. Then shall I truly be Christ's disciple, when the world shall not so much as see my body. Entreat Christ for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments to you. They were apostles; I am but a condemned man. They were free, while I am, even until now, a slave. But when I suffer, I shall be the freed-man of Jesus, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being a prisoner, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.

From Syria even to Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, day and night, bound by these ten leopards (I mean the soldiers), who even when they receive benefits show themselves to be awful. But I am discipled by their attacks, 'yet am I not thereby justified' May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me. And I pray they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me quickly, and not deal with me as with some, who out of fear they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to. Forgive me, I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, seen or unseen, forbid me that I should go to Jesus Christ. Let fire and cross, let mobs of wild beasts, let tearing, breaking, dislocation of bones, dismemberment, let my whole body even be shattered, may all the horrible torments of the devil come my way--but let me only go to Jesus Christ.

For all the pleasures of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, profit me nothing. It is far better for me to die on behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. 'For what shall it profit a man, if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul?' Him I seek, who died for us; Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Forgive me, brothers; do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death. And while I desire to belong to God, do not hand me over to the world. Allow me to obtain this pure light, when I have gone there, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to imitate the suffering of God. If ay one has Him within himself, let him consider what I yearn for, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am poor.
" - Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Ch. 4-6

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OnePlanPeopleDestiny

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Is there a reason you believe Jesus wasn't speaking literally when He said "do not resist an evil person"? It's true that there are times when Jesus employs hyperbolic language, but surely not everything He said was hyperbole.

As for the martyrs, we have a preponderance of testimony about them. So we actually can look to see how they acted, and in many cases they voluntarily chose martyrdom rather than resistance. Here's just one example: St. Ignatius of Antioch, who had been bishop of the church there for many years, succeeding in the ministry left to him by the Apostles Peter and Paul, was arrested and he offered no resistance. Taken in chains from Antioch to Rome, he penned several letters, one of those letters was sent ahead to the Church in Rome, in this letter he tells them not to do anything to win him his freedom, not to resist, not to try and rescue him. Instead he writes that he is ready to accept whatever men or devil throw at him, because here in his last days he sees the opportunity to finally live up to that high calling of being a disciple of Jesus.

Writing around 107 AD,

"I write to the churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless you hinder me. I beseech of you, do not show unseasonable goodwill toward me. Allow me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to go to God. I am God's wheat, and let me be ground by the teeth of wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ. Instead, entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep, I may be of no trouble to anyone. Then shall I truly be Christ's disciple, when the world shall not so much as see my body. Entreat Christ for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments to you. They were apostles; I am but a condemned man. They were free, while I am, even until now, a slave. But when I suffer, I shall be the freed-man of Jesus, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being a prisoner, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.

From Syria even to Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, day and night, bound by these ten leopards (I mean the soldiers), who even when they receive benefits show themselves to be awful. But I am discipled by their attacks, 'yet am I not thereby justified' May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me. And I pray they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me quickly, and not deal with me as with some, who out of fear they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to. Forgive me, I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, seen or unseen, forbid me that I should go to Jesus Christ. Let fire and cross, let mobs of wild beasts, let tearing, breaking, dislocation of bones, dismemberment, let my whole body even be shattered, may all the horrible torments of the devil come my way--but let me only go to Jesus Christ.

For all the pleasures of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, profit me nothing. It is far better for me to die on behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. 'For what shall it profit a man, if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul?' Him I seek, who died for us; Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Forgive me, brothers; do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death. And while I desire to belong to God, do not hand me over to the world. Allow me to obtain this pure light, when I have gone there, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to imitate the suffering of God. If ay one has Him within himself, let him consider what I yearn for, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am poor.
" - Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Ch. 4-6

-CryptoLutheran
You're correct: not all of Christ's teachings are hyperbolic. Some are, though.

Had Paul and faithful followers of Christ not resisted the efforts of Jews to kill Paul in Jerusalem, Paul would not have made it out of Jerusalem alive. Hallelujah. Praise God for His providence.

Re: Ignatius of Antioch wrote: "From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers..."

Ignatius to the
Romans

Not much is known of Ignatius other than his fate and his seven letters to the churches. We do know by his own hand, however, that ten soldiers arrested him. Those seven letters survived all these years as a witness to us all. Hallelujah. God's providence once again.

I suppose there's a fine line between knowing when to resist tyranny and when to surrender to it. In the end, when you're sealed with the Spirit of Promise, your place in the kingdom is secure and your appointment is certain to be right on time.
 
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zippy2006

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So in this I am opposed to violent action in general, and believe in choosing non-violence and non-violent solutions as a matter of moral imperative, and principle. I confess that there can come times when, tragically, violence is necessitated by extraordinary circumstance; in which case it may be justified in order to prohibit greater evil. If I know that someone intends to kill many innocents, and if my only option is to violently stop them, then I believe such is justified. I consider this an extraordinary, rather than ordinary, act however.
The problem I have been pointing out can be brought against your own position. You say we should not kill anyone, except in grave circumstances. The OP then asks, "Does this rule apply equally to Christians and non-Christians?" Obviously the first part applies to all, Christian and non-Christian alike. The second part, "...except in grave circumstances," would seem to also apply to Christian and non-Christian alike. Thus the question arises: In what way does it matter at all whether our potential victim is a Christian?

My guess is that the reason it does not matter is because we are talking about strict obligations, without room for exceptions. On your view we have an obligation not to kill and we have an obligation defend "many innocents," and these obligations do not admit of exceptions such as, "...Unless the potential victim is a Christian." Forms of favoritism towards Christians (as well as forms of supererogation) can only obtain in a case where we are not obliged to act.
 
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