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Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Also, your argument has all the flaws that Pascal´s Wager (as an apologetc tool) has.

Well I think pascals wager is saying believe because you have everything to gain. Mine is more you have clearly defined benefits here and now if you do believe and if this is the case then wouldn't you morally be obligated to believe it because its best for you and everyone else if the alternative causes more suffering. I'm just at the beginning of this argument but I figure I could just work on it more or just post it in it's early stages to have it examined faster than I could on my own. The question of course is how does one believe and thats really another topic. But I believe it can be done.
 
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MehGuy

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Well I think pascals wager is saying believe because you have everything to gain. Mine is more you have clearly defined benefits here and now if you do believe and if this is the case then wouldn't you morally be obligated to believe it because its best for you and everyone else if the alternative causes more suffering. I'm just at the beginning of this argument but I figure I could just work on it more or just post it in it's early stages to have it examined faster than I could on my own. The question of course is how does one believe and thats really another topic. But I believe it can be done.

I like you, but I think this argument you're trying to work on is fractally broken.
 
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MehGuy

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Holoman

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Its quite simple to choose not to believe God exists. I did it for years. I just didn't think about him, didn't pray, did whatever I wanted. I barely thought about him at all. I was just skeptical about everything I heard. I'm sure if you ask most people they barely even think about God.

At a point in my life I chose I wasnt going to carry on in my skepticism and would choose to believe in God. I prayed and I read and learnt all that I could. Over time, my belief became even stronger, but I still remember that choice I made to stop letting my life be ruled by doubt. Most atheists never apply the same skepticism they do to religion to their own Atheism, and once they do they realise how full of holes Atheism is.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Its quite simple to choose not to believe God exists. I did it for years. I just didn't think about him, didn't pray, did whatever I wanted. I barely thought about him at all. I was just skeptical about everything I heard. I'm sure if you ask most people they barely even think about God.

I find it difficult to relate to that. It's interesting to hear you describe your experience though.

Most atheists never apply the same skepticism they do to religion to their own Atheism, and once they do they realize how full of holes Atheism is.

Unless, of course, they draw a different conclusion that you did. Self-identified atheists are often contemplative ones, not the uncontemplative sort that you describe above. I agree that most people are not the philosophical sort.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Unless, of course, they draw a different conclusion that you did. Self-identified atheists are often contemplative ones, not the uncontemplative sort that you describe above. I agree that most people are not the philosophical sort.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Atheists do fight for their atheism though. They try to defend it. Even if it means not being logical or bias they will fight for it. So they aren't completely rational because they have concluded God exists and aren't really open to alternative views. You can have a discussion with them but everything a believer says is nonsense so you won't go very far. Atheists aren't objective at all from what I've seen. I don't think anyone is. As much as they try to be, they definitely aren't. Because they can come up with any reason they think of not to believe. As long as they do that, then of course they won't believe.
 
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Ken-1122

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Atheists do fight for their atheism though. They try to defend it. Even if it means not being logical or bias they will fight for it. So they aren't completely rational because they have concluded God exists and aren't really open to alternative views. You can have a discussion with them but everything a believer says is nonsense so you won't go very far. Atheists aren't objective at all from what I've seen. I don't think anyone is. As much as they try to be, they definitely aren't. Because they can come up with any reason they think of not to believe. As long as they do that, then of course they won't believe.
It appears you haven't spoken to atheists, but theists who want to be atheist.
 
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quatona

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Well I think pascals wager is saying believe because you have everything to gain. Mine is more you have clearly defined benefits here and now if you do believe and if this is the case then wouldn't you morally be obligated to believe it because its best for you and everyone else if the alternative causes more suffering. I'm just at the beginning of this argument but I figure I could just work on it more or just post it in it's early stages to have it examined faster than I could on my own. The question of course is how does one believe and thats really another topic. But I believe it can be done.
Well, if you post it in its early stages, I can only address its early stages.
In this stage it´s basically combining two unfounded and debatable assumptions:
1. People can arbitrarily change their beliefs.
2. Everyone (regardless their lives, experiences, actual beliefs and convictions) would benefit from believing in (a certain brand of??) Christianity.

I think the first one is a downright erroneous assumption, and I also think that cognitive dissonance benefits nobody.

As for the second one, I tend to agree that having a consistent, satisfying, inspiring, meaningful metaphysical/philosophical (for lack of a better term) framework for and outlook for their lives is very beneficial to each individual. Alas, not everyone is like you and finds the Christian framework consistent, satisfying, inspiring and meaningful to a degree that would render it the most beneficial one of all the ones out there - for them.
At the core of your argument we find "I believe that belief in God, being a christian does actually improve your well being". Now, of course it´s your prerogative to believe this about your beliefsystem (and I´m sure a lot of believers in whatever believe this about their beliefsystem), but that´s not a solid foundation for an argument.

On another note, I don´t know that there´s a utilitarian ethics that demands you to believe what´s most beneficial. Last time I checked it was about doing what´s most beneficial.
 
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quatona

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Atheists do fight for their atheism though. They try to defend it. Even if it means not being logical or bias they will fight for it. So they aren't completely rational because they have concluded God exists and aren't really open to alternative views. You can have a discussion with them but everything a believer says is nonsense so you won't go very far. Atheists aren't objective at all from what I've seen. I don't think anyone is. As much as they try to be, they definitely aren't. Because they can come up with any reason they think of not to believe. As long as they do that, then of course they won't believe.
All of which - even if it were accurate and not just the mere unsubstantiated tu quoque rant it appears to be - would be completely immaterial for the validity of your argument concerning the benefits of holding a Christian belief, of all.
 
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quatona

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Its quite simple to choose not to believe God exists. I did it for years. I just didn't think about him, didn't pray, did whatever I wanted. I barely thought about him at all. I was just skeptical about everything I heard. I'm sure if you ask most people they barely even think about God.

At a point in my life I chose I wasnt going to carry on in my skepticism and would choose to believe in God. I prayed and I read and learnt all that I could. Over time, my belief became even stronger, but I still remember that choice I made to stop letting my life be ruled by doubt. Most atheists never apply the same skepticism they do to religion to their own Atheism, and once they do they realise how full of holes Atheism is.
You almost make it sound like atheism were a belief-system.
 
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comana

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Its quite simple to choose not to believe God exists. I did it for years. I just didn't think about him, didn't pray, did whatever I wanted. I barely thought about him at all. I was just skeptical about everything I heard. I'm sure if you ask most people they barely even think about God.

At a point in my life I chose I wasnt going to carry on in my skepticism and would choose to believe in God. I prayed and I read and learnt all that I could. Over time, my belief became even stronger, but I still remember that choice I made to stop letting my life be ruled by doubt. Most atheists never apply the same skepticism they do to religion to their own Atheism, and once they do they realise how full of holes Atheism is.
I don't know anyone who will straight out say I'm an atheist who has not spent a great deal of introspection and evaluation of evidence and reasons to believe/not believe. I have, however, met many people who state they are non-religious and are more indifferent to the existence of god(s) and some of these people have become religious once they were faced with a reason compelling to them to step out of indifference and into belief.

I have a feeling you may be more like the latter than the former based on your post.
 
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Ken-1122

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It improves their well being, their families well being, their friends well being, the environments well being?

Now a quick answer one would say is yes but it doesn't. And I think this is where the discussion really begins. Because theres no question, even among atheists who were former christians they admit to missing or at least no longer having certain benefits that christianity gave them. So I don't think it's too hard to imagine it being actually true that it could not only improve their well being, but their families, their friends, the environment etc. And if this is the case, even if someone is 100% certain God doesn't exist. Shouldn't they still believe in God? Because its clearly what is best for them and everyone else. Or you can ask another question which is should an atheist remain an atheist even when this results in the worst possible suffering for them and every thing else in the universe?

I ask this because I believe that belief in God, being a christian does actually improve your well being. Which can lead to a trickle down effect across the world. Because atheists always try to say they want to behave in a way in which there is the least amount of suffering, if belief in God does lead to the least amount of suffering then shouldn't they believe?
I think you as a Christian have a legitimate reason to believe Atheists should accept Christianity, because you are convinced it improves the above-mentioned wellbeing.
The Atheist of course is convinced these things are not improved by him accepting Christianity, thus it would be foolish for him to try to embrace it for such a reason.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The bottom line, and the challenge for Christians is to convince them that there is a living God out there who create them in His own image. Everything else will fall on deaf ears until they come to that knowledge, and only the Holy Spirit can do that.
Until the Holy Spirit, through the grace and mercy of God opens their eyes to the reality of the existence of the Living God, they will remain blinded and continue on the road to destruction.
A lot of things Jesus said about material wealth was actually directed at the 1st century Jewish religious leaders who were mostly corrupt and greedy and did nothing to help the poor and needy.

Matthew 13:15
for made gross was the heart of this people
, and with the ears they heard heavily, and their eyes they did close,
lest they might see with the eyes, and with the ears might hear, and with the heart understand, and turn back, and I might heal them.

Revelation 3
17 That thou are saying that Rich I am, and I have become rich and not yet one need I am having. And not are aware that thou are the weight-calloused and forlorn and poor and blind and naked.
18 I am together-advising to thee to buy beside of Me gold, having been fired out of fire, that thou should be being rich, and whit garments, that thou may be being clothed and no may be being made manifest the vileness of the nakedness of thee.
And eye-salve to anoint the eyes of thee, that thou may be seeing [Luke 16:19-26/John 9:39]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:22
"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried."

Those who insist that this is not a parable but a true, literal story Yeshua told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion.
First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life.
Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself.
If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?

The Jews were truly rich, feasting on God's spiritual blessings. Yet these very gifts caused them to stumble because they prompted them to self-righteousness. They gloried in the gifts, without glorifying the Eternal God who gave them. Instead of being a "royal priesthood" that was a blessing to all nations, they instead loathed and despised the surrounding peoples. Certainly, as Paul wrote, "their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them" (Rom. 11:9)......

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12/Reve 14:11]

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.
 
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Ken-1122

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Its quite simple to choose not to believe God exists. I did it for years. I just didn't think about him, didn't pray, did whatever I wanted. I barely thought about him at all. I was just skeptical about everything I heard. I'm sure if you ask most people they barely even think about God.
Most of the people I know don’t think a lot about God, don’t pray and pretty much do whatever they want; yet they still believe in God. I don't think you were an atheist, you were just a person who didn’t make God the focus of your life.
I At a point in my life I chose I wasnt going to carry on in my skepticism and would choose to believe in God. I prayed and I read and learnt all that I could. Over time, my belief became even stronger, but I still remember that choice I made to stop letting my life be ruled by doubt. Most atheists never apply the same skepticism they do to religion to their own Atheism, and once they do they realise how full of holes Atheism is.
I don’t think atheism is something you can be skeptical about because it is the default position; it doesn’t assert anything, they just reject what other people assert.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Atheists do fight for their atheism though. They try to defend it. Even if it means not being logical or bias they will fight for it.

Examples?

And are we talking about contemplative atheists, or uncontemplative ones? It sounds like you are trying to run both groups together.

So they aren't completely rational because they have concluded God exists and aren't really open to alternative views.

That doesn't logically follow. Even if someone may not be consistently rational, that doesn't mean that they were irrational for holding a specific view or rejecting a specific view.

You can have a discussion with them but everything a believer says is nonsense so you won't go very far.

What if everything a particular believer says on a particular occasion is actually nonsense? I agree that this might make discussion challenging.

Atheists aren't objective at all from what I've seen.

What leads you to that conclusion? What provably reasonable and rational statement did they reject?

I don't think anyone is.

Is that your objective conclusion?

As much as they try to be, they definitely aren't.

Who is "they"? Atheists, along with Christians, are best understood as individuals, not as a member of some amorphous mass that share characteristics. There is a hint of "identity politics" in such a collective view.

I can agree that being rational and objective is a challenge, and it may be difficult to be rational and objective about absolutely everything, however, that doesn't mean that one can't be rational and objective about a particular issue in a particular instance. I don't see where one gets by trying to drop context here.

Because they can come up with any reason they think of not to believe.

Including good reasons, from what I have seen. I wonder if those bad "reasons" are really just questions that you weren't able to adequately address.

As long as they do that, then of course they won't believe.

In the case of such atheists, I suppose. But it seems like you are trying to smear all atheists with the possible irrationality of a few.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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DogmaHunter

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Is that true?

As true as the statement I was responding to.

Ok. Nonetheless, it is true.

You don't know that. You believe that.

Christianity is not about the "well being" of the creature, but rather the glory of the Creator.

Just like in North Korea, it's about the glory of the Dear Leader.
 
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