Protestants and Mortal sin

[HisKid1973]

That's my point. Even though the thief was never literally baptized or literally went to confession, God made it and the thief's salvation possible through ways known to Him only.

Amen ..Good post ..All the thief did was acknowledged Christ ie. confessed He was the Son of God

 

[PETE_]

Apostolic succession does not work like heraldry. The ones who succeed the Apostles may be considered spiritually children of the particular Apostle, but they are not usually biological children. The person who succeeded St. Peter in his chair is not St. Peter's biological son. But he may have been taught about Jesus by St. Peter or one of the Apostles. And the one who succeeds St. Peter's successor was likely to be taught by either an apostle or a disciple of an apostle, and so on.

The Apostles were first given this ability to choose successor by Christ, and this ability was then passed on to those chosen to succeed the Apostles by the Apostles. And so the process of ordination has worked ever since. It doesn't mean that a person has to study in Rome under the recent Pope to be ordained, but that those ordained by the Church are to teach the faith and those that pursue ordination go through the process ordained by the Church. In a sense, Apostolic succession notes the power of the Church to organize as the body of Christ by the power of Christ, who first ordained the Apostles to such a task.

Pax Tecum,

John

Then where does God state that the successor recieves the same authourity to forgive sin?

 

[Credo]

MOD HAT ON

One last appeal to not let this become a debate thread. Debating between Catholics and non-Catholics IS NOT ALLOWED and this is becoming dangerously close to debating. Bating is also against forum rules. I will shut this thread down if it continues.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[PETE_]

I hope it was not me. I find the information on the different view of the forgiveness of sin useful. The more you can learn from others the less influence certain stereotypes influence our opinions.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Then where does God state that the successor recieves the same authourity to forgive sin?

Hi Pandersen! Just a caution, but this thread is on the verge of becoming a debate, and I wouldn't want you to get into trouble. If you have more questions, I'd suggest maybe choosing an OBOB member that you feel might be able to answer them and maybe sending them a PM. But just be mindful that the Tradition of the Church was not all written down (as even John himself states in 20:30!) - Scripture is the basis for a Tradition that is full of many spiritual gems, but it is not the only source of that Tradition. As Catholics, we are very mindful of the practises of the early Christians, because they illustrate to us what the people who were closest to Christ and the Apostles believed. Now, two thousand years later, it is easy to look back and say, "they were off their rocker; this is what Christ really intended!" But we maintain that there is a wisdom there that must be respected.

Again, I'd invite you to PM an OBOB member who you feel would be able to help answer your questions more in depth. (NewMan99 seems to be a favourite these days )

Peace in Christ.

 

[PETE_]

Hi Pandersen! Just a caution, but this thread is on the verge of becoming a debate, and I wouldn't want you to get into trouble. If you have more questions, I'd suggest maybe choosing an OBOB member that you feel might be able to answer them and maybe sending them a PM. But just be mindful that the Tradition of the Church was not all written down (as even John himself states in 20:30!) - Scripture is the basis for a Tradition that is full of many spiritual gems, but it is not the only source of that Tradition. As Catholics, we are very mindful of the practises of the early Christians, because they illustrate to us what the people who were closest to Christ and the Apostles believed. Now, two thousand years later, it is easy to look back and say, "they were off their rocker; this is what Christ really intended!" But we maintain that there is a wisdom there that must be respected.

Again, I'd invite you to PM an OBOB member who you feel would be able to help answer your questions more in depth. (NewMan99 seems to be a favourite these days )

Peace in Christ.

Thank you. I hope I did not come off as disrespectful. I truely wanted to better understand.

 

[JCrawf]

Then where does God state that the successor recieves the same authourity to forgive sin?

Miss Shelby in post 23gave the key passage, but let's look closely at these verses:

John 20:21-23 (NRSV)

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Jesus here has essentially ordained the Apostles, giving them the power to forgive sins - to loose and bind. This is essentially the beginning of ordination in general and notes its origins in Christ.

Another particular passage to consider is I Corinthians 4:14-16:

I am not writing this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children.For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. I appeal to you, then, be imitators of me.

St. Paul was not among the original 12, yet he became an apostle through Christ. Those that were taught by St. Paul and the other apostles also spoke in similar manner towards the faithful as being "children" because they were ordained by the apostles to carry on the sacred tradition of the Body of Christ, the Church.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

Peronally, I think that people are getting a little too sensitive about the questions and considering them to be a debate. It was said that non-Catholics can ask questions, and the one person who has be posting recently has been doing just that. If just posing a question is a challenge to your faith, then you shouldn't be in these threads.

And just so people don't consider me being a non-Catholic debating, I am a Catholic, I just am not showing the Catholic icon. I have every right to post a response to non-Catholic questions as any other Catholic, regardless of whether they are showing the icon or not.

Pax Vobiscum,

John

 

[WordofGod]

Please remember there are 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal in Catholic doctrine;

1. Grave matter
2. Full knowledge
3. Full consent

#2 is an important condition in this context. In order for a Protestant to commit a sin that is mortally wounding to the soul, they must have full knowledge of its gravity and still choose to commit it anyway. In some cases, this knowledge only comes by being Catholic (i.e., going to Church on sunday is an example commonly used). In other cases, one cannot plead invisible ignorance if the mortal sin violates something deeply ingrained in our moral conscience (murder or rape, for example).

That being said, if a Protestant is sincerely sorry for his sins and asks for forgiveness, God will not deny him graces that is proportionate to his contrition. To suggest otherwise is silly, and contraditctory to the Church's teachings.

However, something to always remember, is that only through confession can we know with aboslute certainty that we have been totally forgiven and absolved of our sins. Outside of confession, we depend on the level of contrition/desire in our hearts. But through confession, God will perfectly restore our souls to grace every time, so long as we are contrite and fullfill our penance.

Blessings,

-Davide

I was reviewing all the replies here and I can see that I can stop right here at yours.
I would have very little to add after reading your reply. Excellent!

 

[Rising_Suns]

I think this is a two-point issue, much like Baptism.

1. Our Lord told us to be baptized.
2. Our Lord took the repentant thief with him without the thief being baptized.

Therefore, it would seem that although the sacraments are in most cases necessary, God can and does work without them in cases of necessity. The normative way for forgiveness of sins is confession to and absolution from a priest in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- but God, being God, can surely choose to forgive those who cannot for whatever reasons receive the sacrament of confession.

Exactly. As the Catechism states; "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

-Davide

 

[God_of_Mercy]

Thank you all for your replies

God of Mercy: When I was investigating Catholicism via the web, I found one person who I trusted and respected, and asked my questions via pm. This is only a suggestion.

Michelle

Seems like a good idea.

One last question

I think Michelle answered this in another post but about invincible ignorance:

Does one loss their invincible ignorance once they understand Catholic doctrine or recognize it as true?

 

[Miss Shelby]

Does one loss their invincible ignorance once they understand Catholic doctrine or recognize it as true?

Yep.

Michelle

 

[plainswolf]

Some were wondering about St. Dismas, the 'Good Thief'. Remember that this was still under the old covenant when the thief died. The Church had not yet been born because Christ had not yet died and rose from the dead, nor ascended into heaven yet.

"And there were also two other malefactors, led with Him to be put to death. And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, they crucified Him there: and the robbers, one on the right hand, the other on the left."

Secondly, the thief was crucified along with Christ, yet there, suffering in the amidst his own crucifixion along with Christ, he defended and worshipped Christ, and displayed perfect Faith, Hope and Charity as well as Humility and Contrition - all of this from up on his own cross. This was a very special grace from God, because even in the midst of his own dying agony - still possessing all his former cunning - somehow he discerned Divinity when it was most obscured. Still a thief till the very end he secured for his booty the greatest treasure of all, the glorious treasures of Heaven which he plunders for all eternity.

"And one of those robbers who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying: If though be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward for our deeds. But this man hath done no evil. And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with Me in paradise"(Lk. 23:39-43).



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[JCrawf]

Does one loss their invincible ignorance once they understand Catholic doctrine or recognize it as true?

Well one does become more culpable the more they come to understand. But yeah, I remember when I was coming closer to understanding Catholicism trying to not really learn too much, worrying that I might actually start to believe. But once I realized that, if indeed what is taught by the Catholic Church is true, then how can I reason that it is better to hide from it? Are we not supposed to go towards the truth, being that truth leads us closer to God?

So yeah, the closer one comes to understanding Catholic Church and her doctrines, the less one can clame ignorance. But of course it also takes more than understanding, but actually coming to believe it to be true.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

Remember that this was still under the old covenant when the thief died. The Church had not yet been born because Christ had not yet died and rose from the dead, nor ascended into heaven yet.

I don't know about that. Wasn't the Church already forming, and thus at least in its earliest stages of birth when Christ called the Apostles to him and began his ministry?

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[seekingpurity047]

Might I just put in my two cents...

All sins are mortal... "For the wages of sin is death..." Rom. 6:23

 

[plainswolf]

I don't know about that. Wasn't the Church already forming, and thus at least in its earliest stages of birth when Christ called the Apostles to him and began his ministry?

Pax Tecum,

John

Pentacost.. But either way the thief had perfect contrition, faith, hope and charity as displayed in his words to Christ.



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[JCrawf]

Pentacost.. But either way the thief had perfect contrition, faith, hope and charity as displayed in his words to Christ.

Yes, Pentacost may be the official brith of the Church, but the teachings of Christ and all the aspects that one could call the "embryo" of the Church were there in Christ's ministry. Moreso, baptism first began with St. John and was perfected in Christ. The main aspect for the "good thief" is that he is an example of baptism by desire. His confession was to the High Priest, which Christ was before even being born, was also while living as well as in death, and certainly after the resurrection and ascenscion into heaven. Christ was, is, and always will be high priest. It is from him that the sacraments have salvific power. So certainly, face to face with Christ is to experience the sacramentality of salvation first hand.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[plainswolf]

Yes, Pentacost may be the official brith of the Church, but the teachings of Christ and all the aspects that one could call the "embryo" of the Church were there in Christ's ministry. Moreso, baptism first began with St. John and was perfected in Christ. The main aspect for the "good thief" is that he is an example of baptism by desire. His confession was to the High Priest, which Christ was before even being born, was also while living as well as in death, and certainly after the resurrection and ascenscion into heaven. Christ was, is, and always will be high priest. It is from him that the sacraments have salvific power. So certainly, face to face with Christ is to experience the sacramentality of salvation first hand.

Pax Tecum,

John

This is also true, but after Pentacost the Church became a public, fully functional intitution. Never the less it wasn't until Christ died that the veil in the temple was rent in two, signifying the end of the old convenant. The Law of Grace supplanted the Mosaic Law.

But again, either way, the thief displayed something quite extraordinary, and "extraordinary" is the key - perfect act of contrition, faith, hope and charity. While all but one Apostle had since fled (and I certainly dont mean to impugn the Apostles by this) here was the thief, dying in agony - proclaiming, defending, and worshipping Christ. Accepting his own death as just punishment for his crimes and uniting his own suffering and death to that of Christ's.

 

[JCrawf]

But again, either way, the thief displayed something quite extraordinary, and "extraordinary" is the key - perfect act of contrition, faith, hope and charity.

Yes, what happened with the thief was extraordinary. But it is no more or less extrordinary than what happens with the sacraments themselves. One could say two sacraments were happening at the same time, the baptism of desire and confession to the High Priest, who was, is, and always will be.

Yes, the salvific effects of being in front of and experiencing the salvific powers of our Lord's sacramentality is extraordinary, but that same extraordinary power is there in the Echarist, Confession, and all the sacraments. They both rest on Christ's pressence, and without that, no one can have perfect contrition, faith, hope and charity.

Pax Tecum,

john