Jesus Magnified the Ten Commandments

[trophy33]

Edwin M. Cotto
- the director and founder of the Advent Defense League which is dedicated to responding to alleged arguments against Seventh-day Adventist doctrines

It is as biased as posting some Vatican apologetics about the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Edwin M. Cotto
- the director and founder of the Advent Defense League which is dedicated to responding to alleged arguments against Seventh-day Adventist doctrines

It is as biased as posting some Vatican apologetics about the perpetual virginity of Mary.

The difference is one is supported by Scripture as demonstrated. If you have a biblical argument against the Scriptures posted in support that Paul does not have the authority to change a dot or tittle of God's law written on the Authority of God , hence why Paul never taught the Ten Commandment's were abolished, he said it was sin when breaking Rom 7:7 and dishonoring God Rom 2:21-23 and how we show love to our neighbor Rom 13:9, but if you think Paul did away with the Ten Commandment's and was in rebellion to what Jesus taught and lived Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 John 14:15, feel free to show this through Scripture

 

[trophy33]

The difference is one is supported by Scripture as demonstrated. If you have a biblical argument against the Scriptures posted in support that Paul does not have the authority to change a dot or tittle of God's law written on the Authority of God , hence why Paul never taught the Ten Commandment's were abolished, he said it was sin when breaking Rom 7:7 and dishonoring God Rom 2:21-23 and how we show love to our neighbor Rom 13:9, but if you think Paul did away with the Ten Commandment's and was in rebellion to what Jesus taught and lived Mat 15:3-14 May 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 John 14:15, feel free to show this through Scripture

Your SDA views have already been all debunked with Scriptures and with logic, with context etc. This is all just a repetition.

Whenever we got deeper into it, you stopped responding and said "take care". So there is no point trying again.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Your SDA views have already been all debunked with Scriptures and with logic, with context etc. This is all just a repetition.

I guess Jesus will be the Judge of this, not you or I. No one has ever made a biblical argument that the Ten Commandments we no longer need to keep. It actually goes against common sense and logic as if there would ever be a time a Christ follower or Christian can worship other gods, or steal, or murder, or covet or not use God's name in a holy manner. No wonder why God's commandments that was supernaturally written by God Himself, His personal Testimony Exo 31:18, we will see at the last trumpet when Jesus comes Rev 11:19, because God does not judge us on man-made laws, He judges us on His law James 2:10-12 2 Cor 5:10 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15

Teaching we can break the least of these commandments and keep our own law instead goes against everything Jesus taught and lived. Mat 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-14 Psa 89:34 Deut 4:2 Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 Rev 14:15 Rev 22:14-15

Man claiming they ended, is not a biblical argument. Twisting Paul's words to go against Paul's own testimony that breaking the commandments quoting directly from the Ten is sin Rom 7:7- is Paul teaching one to sin and be separated from God Isa 59:2 or to dishonor God by breaking His law Rom 2:21-23 and not show love to our neighbor Rom 13:9 or be an enmity to God and live in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 which Paul relates to breaking the commandments and one won't inherit eternal life Gal 5:19-21 no Paul is not contradicting his own testimony or the Testimony of Jesus Christ and no Scripture can mean otherwise, otherwise we truly do not understand the character of Jesus or His disciples, which they were a follower of Christ, not in rebellion.

Whenever we got deeper into it, you stopped responding and said "take care". So there is no point trying again.

The history of my postings says otherwise. However we are told when someone is so closed to hearing God's Truth and all of God's commandments are Truth according to Scripture Psa 119:151 there is only so much one can do and Scripture tells us to dust of our feet, so sometimes that is the best remedy, especially when people use their words as if they are equal to God's, there is just no reasoning with that mindset.

 

[trophy33]

The history of my postings says otherwise.

Nah. I cannot even number how many times you ended any deeper conversation with "take care", "it will be sorted soon", "agree to disagree", throughout the years. Your usual phrases, when it gets into waters you do not know much about, like textual criticism, the first church, Greek language, cultural context of Jesus' words, how the Bible was even written, when, by whom, for whom, how the inspiration works etc. All the important things.

Bible verses is not playing cards - who has more in their posts, wins. It works differently.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nah. I cannot even number how many times you ended any deeper conversation with "take care", "it will be sorted soon", "agree to disagree", throughout the years. Your usual phrases, when it gets into waters you do not know much about, like textual criticism, the first church, Greek language, cultural context of Jesus' words, how the Bible was even written, when, by whom, for whom, how the inspiration works etc. All the important things.

Bible verses is not playing cards - who has more in their posts, wins. It works differently.

Our words, thoughts, ideas and opinions are important to us, but they are not Scripture. Please demonstrate how Paul teaches against what Jesus taught or even himself when using his writings to teach against obeying God's commandments and we can sin, dishonor God, not love our neighbor be an enmity to God so we will not inherit eternal life. I demonstrated through Scripture where Paul taught when we break God's law this is what happens. Claiming it's not so, it not a compelling argument. If you can't demonstrate this with Scripture, there is no point in continuing and will just have to refer back to this post Jesus Magnified the Ten Commandments and agree to disagree.

 

[childeye 2]

The law was in existence long before God codified it at Mt Sinai. Where there is no law, there is no sin Rom 4:15 sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4.

My post specified the written law (the letter of the law in scripture). Hence God's righteousness that comes by grace through faith, does not come from the written law because God's Character and His righteousness precedes the letter of the law. God's righteous Character is revealed in the Gospel of His Son. I don't believe the bible can fully describe a Glory that surpasses all written words, it can only testify to Him. But Jesus IS the Living Word come in the flesh. Which is why scripture testifies:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

So with that in mind, as pertains to your thoughts above, I would think God precedes all things created, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the scriptures, the law and sin. I don't see Romans 4:15 as meaning to convey that the law was in existence before it was written, nor does it convey that where there is no law there is no sin. The context is about the inheritance being attained through promise rather than performing the law. <--- Abraham's faith was before the law

Romans 4
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Moreover, the thought that sin is not imputed where there is no law would indicate that sin came before the law and that the written law was added because of sin, and for sin. It denotes that sin or transgressions against others existed before the law was given, which is why sin is made known (revealed) in the transgression of the law. That's not meant to deny that sin takes occasion of the law to abound.

Galatians 3
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 5:13​

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Where did sin start? It started in heaven with Lucifer Ezekiel 28:15 1 John 3:8 no law, no sin, therefore the law started in heaven.

None of these scriptures indicate the law started in heaven. We know scripture says Lucifer sinned even because iniquity was found in him, but scripture says the iniquity/sin in Lucifer's case began with prideful vanity and doesn't mention the law. It makes sense that vanity would first manifest through a creature occupying a high station.

Ezekial 28:15
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Adam and Eve sinned and broke God's law in Eden when they choose to listen to the devil over being faithful to God. Was it not a sin to covet the forbidden fruit when Eve saw it was good to eat, after God told her not to? Was it not sin to steal the forbidden fruit when it didn't belong to her? Was it not sin to eat the forbidden fruit when the devil told her she would be like God breaking the very first commandment.

Jesus taught that we will be judged according to what measure we use to judge others.

Having said that, I note that Eve did not know of good and evil in her state of innocence. To love others as myself, I don't feel I have any right to judge Adam or Eve. For I note that she was deceived by the cunning of a creature with greater knowledge than her, just as we all have been deceived into desires based on futile imaginings. The fall of mankind was predicated upon a lie presented with subtlety. It's better to show grace, humility, understanding, and mercy, if we wish to receive mercy. This is why Jesus teaches us to pray in this manner, "Forgive us our sins even as we forgive those who sin against us".

I see this connection ---> if I condemn Eve as if she deliberately knew what she was doing, then I'm believing the same defamatory lie that the serpent was insinuating. To rephrase: I will be saying that God is a liar if I say Eve was not deceived into doing what she did. To rephrase again: Since God isn't a liar about death entering into mankind upon eating of the tree, then Eve was deceived into eating.

Sin is what separated man from God and the curse of the law by breaking it separated us from God. Isa 59:2 The law is not the issue, we are. Every King has laws and God is no different. God didn't leave it up to man to write His holy and eternal law, He personally wrote it, He personally spoke it, He numbered them by design as He knew man would try to tinker with them and used the word "Remember" on one of them, because He know man would want to forget. Sadly, most churches teach we don't have to keep God's law, its the same lie that deceived our first parents. Sadly that is deceiving millions if not billions of people.

I understand how you can say that the law is not the issue, we are. I would have said the law is not the issue, the vanity in the creature that begets sin is the issue. --->The sin that entered in through the knowledge of good and evil, the same sin that was lying at the door of Cain's heart wanting to devour him --->was born out of vanity. Wherefore all Christian Churches I am familiar with magnify the Christ Image above the law. The following scriptures carry the same sentiment.

John 5​

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.​

Matthew 5:17​

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

​

If we agree. the law shows us our sins and God's righteousness, why do you keep bringing this up as if we don't agree? We are only made righteous by God, disobeying God's law is not how we do that....

Well, I've never heard any Christian say we should disobey the law so it's strange when someone says we shouldn't be saying to break the law. Moreover, I have already forgiven those who sin against me saying within myself that it's okay. That is to say I believe that the person will someday regret what they did, just like I have regretted things I've done. The reason I keep bringing up that the scriptures magnify Christ above the law, is because I don't believe the letter of the law shows God's righteousness at a standard equal to the Christ Image.

Where in the letter does the law say that we must sacrifice ourselves on a cross and forgive our crucifiers? Where is that standard of righteousness described clearly in the law? For I see the Christ Image who had no sin, displayed on a cross suffering our sins so that sins can be forgiven. And I hear Jesus telling me that if I don't pick up my own cross and do the same, I am not worthy of him. By comparison, I don't see how the letter of the law can manifest such a Spirit of Love in me that would suffer a crucifixion when the purpose of the law is meant to condemn sinners.

It appears to me that Satan can use the law to both tempt and accuse. Though he held the power of death, I think he was defeated because he could not imagine such a love that justified sinners with the resurrection unto life. It's my belief that God has made it so that righteousness comes by grace through faith without the law, so that no creature can glory just like the vanity that manifested in Lucifer through the false image of god he had imagined.

These are all arguments people typically use to try to justify not obeying God's commandments. You seem to be making the argument that the Spirit of the law is lesser than the letter not greater and if we are obeying the Spirit of the law somehow we are no longer required to keep the letter, but is this a teaching of Scripture? Its a popular teaching as it sounds good to the ears, but its not one taken from our Bibles.

childeye 2 said:
I'm saying I don't believe there is a need to tell Christians who have the righteousness of God dwelling in them by grace through faith, that they must keep the letter of the law since the Spirit in them is greater than the letter of the law.

If you think that what I said above is an argument to disobey the law, you're mistaken.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. I consider that these people who hunger and thirst for the righteousness of God are seeking righteousness by grace through faith; and they do not need to be told not to sin even because they acknowledge they can't not sin, and this is why they thirst and hunger for righteousness. So, likewise I'm saying that those who are filled having been born out of a promise from God, and who will become children of God by the will of God, also don't need to be told not to sin even because they were filled with righteousness.

Is the Holy Spirit at odds with the letter of the law? I will show you two teachings as examples of this one from Paul one from Jesus.

Sometimes I have problems on these forums understanding people's thoughts. Above, you ask a question and then say you'll show two teachings as examples, even though you didn't make a statement. If this a rhetorical question, it brings to mind that if the letter of the law said to stone someone to death for an action of sin, when in fact we all sin, that would be hypocritical judgment and contrary to the Holy Spirit.

I will show you two teachings as examples of this one from Paul one from Jesus.

The letter of the law says thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not covet. Is Jesus teaching we can break these laws v19 said not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one will be least in heaven and if we read the next verse means one won't be there.

Jesus wants us changed from the inside out, this is what it means to walk by the Spirit, if our heart is changed we would not have anger in our heart and thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept, if we are walking in the Spirit, lusts of the flesh would not have dominion over us and thou shalt not commit adultery would automatically be kept, Jesus is not teaching to break the letter of the law and no one has God's Spirit by breaking the letter, His Spirit is given to us to help us keep them Acts 5:32 John 14:15-18 and if we love Him we would want to obey whatever He asks because we have faith He knows what's best for us,

To me, the Christ shows forth a higher standard of righteousness than the letter of the law. It's good that we recognize the need to be cleansed and quickened on the inside. There is a difference between doing the law as an outward appearance of self-righteousness and experiencing the inward righteousness that comes by grace through faith without the law. Jesus is saying that we must clean the inside of the cup so that the outside will be clean. To that end, I do not check to make sure I'm doing the letter of the law, because I want to walk in the righteousness that comes by grace through faith.

When I read Isaiah 42:21, I believe the context is speaking about this ---> John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

 

[childeye 2]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Every act of sin is preceded by belief in a lie that creates a desire that will lead to sin (see Eve being beguiled).

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Obviously the Spirit is not against the letter of the law and in breaking them, one will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This truly cannot be more clear and really important to keep in mind when reading Paul's writings without proper context.

Paul is saying that God's righteousness doesn't come by doing the letter of the law. That doesn't in any way imply he's saying righteousness comes by breaking them. So it would be wrong imply that those who reject the letter of the law as the means to attain God's righteousness are somehow saying we should disobey the commandments. It is better to say that we must first obtain the righteousness that comes by grace through faith in order to keep them.

Jesus was quoting OT Lev 19:18 and love is the summary of God's law, much like justice could summarize the constitution , But does the summary delete all the details, of course not and new commandments, do not delete old ones as Jesus taught. Mat 5:19 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19

Who said New commandments delete Old commandments? This is a greater commandment, because ---> Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

I believe this is a commandment to love others by laying down my life for others, just as he did for sinners.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Every act of sin is preceded by belief in a lie that creates a desire that will lead to sin (see Eve being beguiled).

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Do you think sin is only when someone is deceived? The Adam and Eve story seems to prove otherwise. Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't, but sinned anyway. Both ended in the same result, sin which separated them from God Isa 59:2

1 Tim 2: 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Paul is saying that God's righteousness doesn't come by doing the letter of the law. That doesn't in any way imply he's saying righteousness comes by breaking them. So it would be wrong imply that those who reject the letter of the law as the means to attain God's righteousness are somehow saying we should disobey the commandments. It is better to say that we must first obtain the righteousness that comes by grace through faith in order to keep them.

I'm not sure if you are reading my posts, or just want to debate just to debate, but I have never said our righteousness comes by the law, God's law is righteous Psa 119:172 so we are not depending on our righteousness (what is right or wrong), but because all have sinned, we only receive righteousness through Christ by faith. I will repost what I wrote

Gods law is righteous, holy and good which we are to be like.

We all have sinned, so no one can become righteous by the law, our righteousness is by faith through Jesus abiding in Him.

Does someone who has faith void the law?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Does someone with faith of Jesus continue sinning after what it did to Jesus on the Cross Rom 7:7 and dishonor Him by breaking the law Rom 2:21-23 and be an enmity of God Rom 8:7-8 Of course not, so I am not sure why we keep going back to this same argument. There is no sin that is too great for Him, but if we cover our sins and not get His help in forsaking them, not a good place to be Pro 28:13

Who said New commandments delete Old commandments? This is a greater commandment, because ---> Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

I believe this is a commandment to love others by laying down my life for others, just as he did for sinners.

The foundation of all of God's commandments is the basis of love. The commandments are not the issue, the lack of love to God and our neighbor is. 1 John 5:2-3, John 14:15, Exo 20:6 John 15:10

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My post specified the written law (the letter of the law in scripture). Hence God's righteousness that comes by grace through faith, does not come from the written law because God's Character and His righteousness precedes the letter of the law. God's righteous Character is revealed in the Gospel of His Son. I don't believe the bible can fully describe a Glory that surpasses all written words, it can only testify to Him. But Jesus IS the Living Word come in the flesh. Which is why scripture testifies:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

So with that in mind, as pertains to your thoughts above, I would think God precedes all things created, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the scriptures, the law and sin. I don't see Romans 4:15 as meaning to convey that the law was in existence before it was written, nor does it convey that where there is no law there is no sin. The context is about the inheritance being attained through promise rather than performing the law. <--- Abraham's faith was before the law

Romans 4
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Moreover, the thought that sin is not imputed where there is no law would indicate that sin came before the law and that the written law was added because of sin, and for sin. It denotes that sin or transgressions against others existed before the law was given, which is why sin is made known (revealed) in the transgression of the law. That's not meant to deny that sin takes occasion of the law to abound.

Galatians 3
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 5:13​

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

None of these scriptures indicate the law started in heaven. We know scripture says Lucifer sinned even because iniquity was found in him, but scripture says the iniquity/sin in Lucifer's case began with prideful vanity and doesn't mention the law. It makes sense that vanity would first manifest through a creature occupying a high station.

Ezekial 28:15
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Jesus taught that we will be judged according to what measure we use to judge others.

Having said that, I note that Eve did not know of good and evil in her state of innocence. To love others as myself, I don't feel I have any right to judge Adam or Eve. For I note that she was deceived by the cunning of a creature with greater knowledge than her, just as we all have been deceived into desires based on futile imaginings. The fall of mankind was predicated upon a lie presented with subtlety. It's better to show grace, humility, understanding, and mercy, if we wish to receive mercy. This is why Jesus teaches us to pray in this manner, "Forgive us our sins even as we forgive those who sin against us".

I see this connection ---> if I condemn Eve as if she deliberately knew what she was doing, then I'm believing the same defamatory lie that the serpent was insinuating. To rephrase: I will be saying that God is a liar if I say Eve was not deceived into doing what she did. To rephrase again: Since God isn't a liar about death entering into mankind upon eating of the tree, then Eve was deceived into eating.

I understand how you can say that the law is not the issue, we are. I would have said the law is not the issue, the vanity in the creature that begets sin is the issue. --->The sin that entered in through the knowledge of good and evil, the same sin that was lying at the door of Cain's heart wanting to devour him --->was born out of vanity. Wherefore all Christian Churches I am familiar with magnify the Christ Image above the law. The following scriptures carry the same sentiment.

John 5​

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.​

Matthew 5:17​

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

​

Well, I've never heard any Christian say we should disobey the law so it's strange when someone says we shouldn't be saying to break the law. Moreover, I have already forgiven those who sin against me saying within myself that it's okay. That is to say I believe that the person will someday regret what they did, just like I have regretted things I've done. The reason I keep bringing up that the scriptures magnify Christ above the law, is because I don't believe the letter of the law shows God's righteousness at a standard equal to the Christ Image.

Where in the letter does the law say that we must sacrifice ourselves on a cross and forgive our crucifiers? Where is that standard of righteousness described clearly in the law? For I see the Christ Image who had no sin, displayed on a cross suffering our sins so that sins can be forgiven. And I hear Jesus telling me that if I don't pick up my own cross and do the same, I am not worthy of him. By comparison, I don't see how the letter of the law can manifest such a Spirit of Love in me that would suffer a crucifixion when the purpose of the law is meant to condemn sinners.

It appears to me that Satan can use the law to both tempt and accuse. Though he held the power of death, I think he was defeated because he could not imagine such a love that justified sinners with the resurrection unto life. It's my belief that God has made it so that righteousness comes by grace through faith without the law, so that no creature can glory just like the vanity that manifested in Lucifer through the false image of god he had imagined.

childeye 2 said:
I'm saying I don't believe there is a need to tell Christians who have the righteousness of God dwelling in them by grace through faith, that they must keep the letter of the law since the Spirit in them is greater than the letter of the law.

If you think that what I said above is an argument to disobey the law, you're mistaken.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. I consider that these people who hunger and thirst for the righteousness of God are seeking righteousness by grace through faith; and they do not need to be told not to sin even because they acknowledge they can't not sin, and this is why they thirst and hunger for righteousness. So, likewise I'm saying that those who are filled having been born out of a promise from God, and who will become children of God by the will of God, also don't need to be told not to sin even because they were filled with righteousness.



Sometimes I have problems on these forums understanding people's thoughts. Above, you ask a question and then say you'll show two teachings as examples, even though you didn't make a statement. If this a rhetorical question, it brings to mind that if the letter of the law said to stone someone to death for an action of sin, when in fact we all sin, that would be hypocritical judgment and contrary to the Holy Spirit.

To me, the Christ shows forth a higher standard of righteousness than the letter of the law. It's good that we recognize the need to be cleansed and quickened on the inside. There is a difference between doing the law as an outward appearance of self-righteousness and experiencing the inward righteousness that comes by grace through faith without the law. Jesus is saying that we must clean the inside of the cup so that the outside will be clean. To that end, I do not check to make sure I'm doing the letter of the law, because I want to walk in the righteousness that comes by grace through faith.

When I read Isaiah 42:21, I believe the context is speaking about this ---> John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

I am not going to respond to all of this as you are making too many arguments I am not making or are not allowing the Scripture to interpret itself.

For example

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. (sin)
Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4. This can't be made more clear.
Sin started in heaven therefore the law is in heaven. Adam and Eve sinned, therefore they were given God’s law. No law, no sin.

Lucifer was a covering cherub, meaning he was one of the angles covering over the ark of the covenant, which held God's law. Exo 25:20 Eze 28:16 so God's law is in heaven and is His standard of Judgement James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30

Its best to let God be God and let God define sin and His law. No judge can judge without a standard to judge by and God is no different.

Regarding the letter of the law - no one is walking in God’s Spirit by breaking the letter. You keep lowering the spirit of the law as if it is lessor than the letter when its the opposite as Jesus, John and Paul taught Mat 5:19-30 Gal 5:16-211 John 3:24 If we are breaking the letter of God's law i.e. thou shalt not worship other gods, thou shalt not steal etc. we are not walking in the Spirit, breaking God's law is sin, and sin separated us from God, its not how we are reconciled. Rev 22:14 The commandments are to be kept because of a heart change, why God wrote His law in our hearts, without a changed heart and the power of the Holy Spirit the commandments are not going to be kept. The commandments are to be our moral compass of right and wrong based on God’s standard for His children, not what we deem righteous, because we are not God. They are perfect converting the soul, the devil doesn’t use God’s law to tempt us to keep them, I’m not sure where you got that idea, he deceives people into believing we don’t have to keep them, or we can edit them, or they are multiple choice. The Holy Spirit is the one who is tugging at our heart to come out of our rebellion to God Heb 3:15 and obey His commandments by our great love of Jesus Christ John 14:15-18


There are lots of different laws as this verse shows more than one.

Galatians 3
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Obviously this is referring to two different laws, one that defines sin, one that was added because of sin. The Ten Commandments is what defines sin 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 the law of Moses was added because of sin, and the law that was until the Seed should come was the sacrificial system, not now that Jesus came, we can worship other gods, or vain God's holy name etc as that is God’s standard of righteousness and what we all are judged by. James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15

Paul told us the law he was referring to what was written in the book that Moses wrote beside the ark Deut 31:24-26, not what God wrote that was inside the ark, God's holy and perfect law Psa 19:7

Gal 3:10 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

To that end, I do not check to make sure I'm doing the letter of the law, because I want to walk in the righteousness that comes by grace through faith.

Just to clarify, is your idea of grace through faith not keeping the letter of the law, so we can now break the Ten Commandments, is this what you are saying? From what I read in my Bible grace does not mean one can sin Rom 6:1-2 and faith establishes the law, which means one would be keeping it Rom 3:31. How does one have faith in Jesus but not faith to do what He asks? That doesn’t sound like a faith that works.

When I read Isaiah 42:21, I believe the context is speaking about this ---> John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

I do not see how Isa 42:21 is referring to John 9:39

Isa 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

John 9:39 is not referring to the law, it is referring to judgement. Jesus did just this, magnify the law as promised Mat 5:19-30.

Based on the way we interpret Scripture I do not see we will come to an understanding of God’s Word. It’s probably best to just agree to disagree. I appreciate the chat and wish you well.

 

[trophy33]

Our words, thoughts, ideas and opinions are important to us, but they are not Scripture. Please demonstrate how Paul teaches against what Jesus taught or even himself when using his writings to teach against obeying God's commandments and we can sin, dishonor God, not love our neighbor be an enmity to God so we will not inherit eternal life. I demonstrated through Scripture where Paul taught when we break God's law this is what happens. Claiming it's not so, it not a compelling argument. If you can't demonstrate this with Scripture, there is no point in continuing and will just have to refer back to this post Jesus Magnified the Ten Commandments and agree to disagree.

You demonstrated nothing, because you do not understand the context of the verses you use for your demonstration. You want to spread and defend the SDA ideas and opinions, that is why you see what you want to see, in the light you want to see it in.
You are not open to accept anything else, therefore we can repeat why you are wrong again and again and nothing changes.

1. The Mosaic Law as a legal civic code was temporary - since Moses to Christ. And for Israel, only.
2. Moral laws like "do not murder", "love your neighbor" are always valid, independently on whether the Mosaic Law ended or not.
3. Sabbath was not a moral law, but ceremonial. It was a part of the Mosaic Law, like animal sacrifices, temples or circumcision.
4. Paul did not teach against Jesus, Paul just taught after Jesus and Christians - different audience.

"If you keep the Sabbath, why not also be circumcised? And if circumcised, why not also offer sacrifices? If the Law is to be observed, it must be observed in its entirety"
Justin Martyr, cca 100-165 AD

"If, then, those who had lived according to the ancient practices came to the newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day"
Ignatios to Magnesians, 110 AD

These people have higher authority in how to understand the Christian teachings than some Seventh Day Adventist website.

 

[childeye 2]

I am not going to respond to all of this as you are making too many arguments I am not making or are not allowing the Scripture to interpret itself.

For example

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. (sin)
Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4. This can't be made more clear.

Let's get this much straight. --->You're saying we need to keep the law of Moses, and I'm saying I have to follow the Spirit of Christ as described here ---> Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

So, here's what I think you think Romans 4:15 scripture is saying, ---> Wherever, there is law (written law) there is sin, i.e. sin =transgression of the law.

Putting aside that it's possible to trespass against another person and even possible to sin against oneself, I think it's safe to say that wherever there is law there can be transgression of that law, and where there is no law there can be no transgression of the law. However, I believe "sin" as in "sinfulness" or "iniquity" indicates a corruption in the heart and/or soul, not just a transgression of law. So, even if there were no law to transgress against, I believe there still can exist a state of being innocent, corruptible and therefore corrupted through false imagery. And it seems to me that if sin existed solely because there is a law that is eternal, then sin would also be eternal.

As pertains to Paul's sentiments in Romans 4:15, we need to consider the context.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

I can see that Paul is saying that the promise that Abraham would inherit the world was to be accomplished through the righteousness of faith. Now I know that the law of Moses had not yet been given when scripture talks about how Abraham walked with God, so Paul is saying that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because he trusted God.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

I think Paul's point here is to say the promise would be of no effect if righteousness came through the deeds of the law, instead of faith apart from the law.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

This to me is saying that the law leads to wrath when people transgress. And since all have transgressed, the law of Moses cannot impute righteousness to a person.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

I believe this is saying that the righteousness by faith must come by grace so that the promise can be sure.

Sin started in heaven therefore the law is in heaven. Adam and Eve sinned, therefore they were given God’s law. No law, no sin.

I think I can safely say no law no knowledge of sin. However, it's clear to me that the spiritual righteousness is God's Living Word and Christ is the living Word come down from Heaven. I think we would both agree that in Christ is the knowledge of God's Holy Character, a revelation that is received by grace through faith. It's his Spirit that are the life and the Light of the soul of mankind.

At best, it is speculation that Lucifer sinned because the law was in heaven. It could be that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents Lucifer. I believe that sin was born out of the corruption of vanity in the creature, and that vanity was born out of a false imagery of god, which was imagined by the creature.

Romans 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1 Corinthians 1
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Let's get this much straight. --->You're saying we need to keep the law of Moses,

Can you find a quote where I have said this?

It just goes to basic understanding of the laws. Who said all the law of Moses ended- are we not to love God with all our heart and soul and love our neighbor, that came from the law of Moses summarizing God's law, the Ten Commandments. Where's the verse we should that?

Without understanding the difference between God's law and the law of Moses, it will be almost impossible to understand Paul..

Can you please find Moses in these verses, Moses was the creation, he was human, just like you and I. He was a very important prophet in Scripture and was a type of Christ, but he was and will never be the God of the Universe who said:

Deut 4:13 13 So He (God) declared to you His (God) covenant which He (God) commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He (God) wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me (God) and keep My (God)commandments.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

God said He wrote His law in our hearts and minds Heb 8:10 God in His own Word- both personally written and spoken by God, tells us what His law is, but if you know better than He to determine what is His law or not, than God Himself, well that's above anything I can help with.

Let's get this much straight. --->You're saying we need to keep the law of Moses, and I'm saying I have to follow the Spirit of Christ as described here ---> Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Spirit of Christ is not in conflict with God's law. Its the opposite, so not sure where you are getting this from.


Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, (sin- breaking God's law) but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life Mat 19:17-19 and peace Isa 48:18. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Christ's Spirit enables us to keep God's law through our cooperation, faith and love. John 14:15-18 so its not in conflict with the very law its enabling us to keep.

Paul is saying if we are in Christ, we are keeping God's commandments, not being an enmity of God by not keeping them, then the law of sin, not the law itself we are free from. The wages of sin is death, not the wages of keeping God's commandments is death. Its funny how the deceiver always flips things.

If one is in Christ they have overcome sin and are keeping His commandments through love and faith

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

We are not saved in our sins, Jesus came to save us from our sins, and we can overcome through Jesus, but it requires to come out of darkness and allow God to be God and follow His moral compass (His commandments) He gave us all to know the difference between right and wrong instead of us deciding what we feel is right or wrong or us deciding how we love God and man instead of what God tells us. John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 Rom 13:9 1 John 5:2-3

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You demonstrated nothing, because you do not understand the context of the verses you use for your demonstration. You want to spread and defend the SDA ideas and opinions, that is why you see what you want to see, in the light you want to see it in.
You are not open to accept anything else, therefore we can repeat why you are wrong again and again and nothing changes.

1. The Mosaic Law as a legal civic code was temporary - since Moses to Christ. And for Israel, only.
2. Moral laws like "do not murder", "love your neighbor" are always valid, independently on whether the Mosaic Law ended or not.
3. Sabbath was not a moral law, but ceremonial. It was a part of the Mosaic Law, like animal sacrifices, temples or circumcision.
4. Paul did not teach against Jesus, Paul just taught after Jesus and Christians - different audience.

"If you keep the Sabbath, why not also be circumcised? And if circumcised, why not also offer sacrifices? If the Law is to be observed, it must be observed in its entirety"
Justin Martyr, cca 100-165 AD

"If, then, those who had lived according to the ancient practices came to the newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day"
Ignatios to Magnesians, 110 AD

These people have higher authority in how to understand the Christian teachings than some Seventh Day Adventist website.

I'm not interested in what other people say, I am interested what God of the Bible says. Does man get to pick and choose among God's commandments which one is moral which one is not? All of God's commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 all of them are Truth Psa 119:151, therefore all of them are moral. The Bible tells us we break one of these quoting and contrasting from what God said in the Ten Commandments, we break them all James 2:11-12

Why would I sacrifice an animal when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins? Sin not changing, still breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12

I asked for a biblical argument where it says we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments, that's not what you provided, so I am going to move on, but I wish you well.

 

[childeye 2]

Do you think sin is only when someone is deceived?

Yes, I think every desire that leads to sin is based on believing something false.

The Adam and Eve story seems to prove otherwise. Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't, but sinned anyway. Both ended in the same result, sin which separated them from God Isa 59:2

1 Tim 2: 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:14, the context is about a woman not usurping authority over a man. Scripture describes the serpent as talking to Eve, not Adam, and I can't actually know if Adam would have been deceived if the serpent had talked to him. But even though Adam was not directly deceived like Eve, I can see he followed the woman who was deceived.

We do know that God conveyed to Adam that he shouldn't have listened to her, which to me indicates Adam was malleable. It also shows Adam probably didn't want to believe that God could be wrong, and he experienced doubt in God for the first time, and he probably ate reluctantly. Perhaps he wondered why the woman didn't die immediately and it caused him to question what God had told him. God's words towards both the man and the woman do not express any sentiments of contempt or that their actions were deliberate.

I believe sin entered in and death through sin by eating of the knowledge of good and evil, as if in that knowledge of good and evil was the knowledge of sin. If good and evil are synonymous with right and wrong, it could be indicative of the law in that respect. At any rate we must trust (have faith) that God is always right, and therefore we must be believing something false when we desire to do something contrary to God. This is why I say that I think every desire that leads to sin is based on believing something false.

I'm not sure if you are reading my posts, or just want to debate just to debate, but I have never said our righteousness comes by the law, God's law is righteous Psa 119:172 so we are not depending on our righteousness (what is right or wrong), but because all have sinned, we only receive righteousness through Christ by faith.

I'm reading your posts. Debating to just debate would be unreasonable. It looked to me like you were saying that the written law is God's righteousness and that we have to keep the letter of the law. It's certainly possible that I misunderstood you.

Bob S said:
I have a few questions for your consideration JFF:

Did God give the Israelites commands in the Book of the Law? If you answer yes, then in Deut 5:29 God could only be well with them if they KEPT ALL OF THEM.
JesusFollowerForever said:
yes! but here were talking about the gentiles, especially here on this forum where a majority think the commandments null and Obsolete.

childeye 2 said:
The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I think this would have something to do with the letter of the law being fulfilled by the Spirit of Christ and why the letter would be obsolete as a form of righteousness to a believer.

SabbathBlessings said:
Can you please elaborate what you mean by the letter of the law. Many interpret this as we no longer need to keep God's law how it reads i.e. thou shalt have no other gods before Me, thou shalt not murder or breaking any of them literally etc. I can never see how this would be obsolete as a form of righteousness to a believer when it is God's righteousness Psa 119:172 Rom 7:12 (His version of right and wrong) for a believer, so we are not depending on our own version of righteousness (right and wrong), which is as fifthly rags..

SabbathBlessings said:
Are you saying obeying the Ten Commandments that was personally written by the God of the Universe which shows God's righteousness Psa 119:172 , holiness Rom 7:12, and how we are to love God and love neighbor 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 as "being in darkness"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, I think every desire that leads to sin is based on believing something false.

I believe every sin comes from selfishness, doing our will over God's will, not necessarily being deceived. God shows us His law, He tells us what sin is, we have no excuse to say I didn't know what is right or wrong when He comes. But as Scripture tells us, many do not want to come to the light but would rather stay in darkness John 3:19-21

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:14,

Its about Adam not being deceived as stated, seems pretty plain to me.

1 Tim 2: 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

It looked to me like you were saying that the written law is God's righteousness and that we have to keep the letter of the law.

Are you saying we don't need to keep the letter of the law? We can now worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal, lie, break His holy Sabath day, bow to false idols? Thats interesting, Paul says those who do these things walk in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and won't inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus will say depart from My ye who practice lawlessness Mat 7:23 Surely you are misunderstanding what the letter means, it means death, the letter of the law calls for death, the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 not I can literally break the Ten Commandments and be in harmony with God's Spirit, this is what God is calling out of our rebellion from Heb 3:;7-8 walking in the Spirit means one is keeping God’s commandments, not breaking them 1 John 3:24

It's certainly possible that I misunderstood you.

childeye 2 said:
The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I think this would have something to do with the letter of the law being fulfilled by the Spirit of Christ and why the letter would be obsolete as a form of righteousness to a believer.

Are you saying that Jesus fulfilled the letter so we can now worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal, lie, break His holy Sabbath day, bow to false idols or break the least of these commandments? So God's Spirit is leading us away from keeping God's law? Despite all the Scriptures I posted that state otherwise and breaking God's law makes one an enmity to God, dishonoring Him and sinning?

SabbathBlessings said:
Can you please elaborate what you mean by the letter of the law. Many interpret this as we no longer need to keep God's law how it reads i.e. thou shalt have no other gods before Me, thou shalt not murder or breaking any of them literally etc. I can never see how this would be obsolete as a form of righteousness to a believer when it is God's righteousness Psa 119:172 Rom 7:12 (His version of right and wrong) for a believer, so we are not depending on our own version of righteousness (right and wrong), which is as fifthly rags..

SabbathBlessings said:
Are you saying obeying the Ten Commandments that was personally written by the God of the Universe which shows God's righteousness Psa 119:172 , holiness Rom 7:12, and how we are to love God and love neighbor 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 as "being in darkness"

Righteousness means right and wrong. God does not leave it up to us to define what is right and wrong as our version of righteousness is as fifthly rags Isa 64:6

Why we need to depend on Gods version of righteousness and all of His commandments are righteous, its not me saying this is God's Word

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
For all Your commandments are righteousness.

And doing righteousness includes the Sabbath commandment

56:1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

Justice and righteousness are the foundation of God's Throne Psa 89:14 Why God's righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142

We all have sinned and broke God's law, so the way we receive our righteousness is imputed by Jesus through faith. Obeying God's law can't save us because we have all sinned, but through abiding in Him He imputes His righteousness. Did Jesus ever sin and break God's law? No of course not, He kept all of the commandments and gives us His righteousness through abiding in Him, following Him as our example by our love and faith of and in Him.

Does our faith lead us to rebel and tell Him I am not going to obey His commandments that He kept as our example? Of course not, if we abide in Him, we will keep His commandments and follow in His example. John 15:10 1 John 2:6 through His power John 14:15-18

This obedience is what leads to our righteousness, claiming we don't need God's righteousness, we have our own version of right or wrong or sinning, leads us on the path to death

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous

You seem to be making the argument that the Spirit leads us away from keeping God's law, but that is deception Isa 8:20 and while it may sound good, that we can decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, it is clearly leading people on the wrong path Jesus taught Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30

We do not receive the Spirit by being disobedient to God or His law. This is a popular teaching, but it’s not a biblical one.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[childeye 2]

I disagree, I believe every sin comes from selfishness, doing our will over God's will, not necessarily being deceived.

Anyone who thinks they know better than God about what is best for them, is deceived. ---> believing God is untrustworthy ---> They have a corrupt image of god in their heart.

God shows us His law, He tells us what sin is, we have no excuse to say I didn't know what is right or wrong when He comes.

How about saying I didn't see, or I was blind and dumb? Or do you think it is wise to frustrate God's Grace? Remember that the sin remained in those Blind pharisees because they said that they see. (Just like you saying we have no excuse).

So think about this:
Phar·i·see
[ˈferəˌsē]
noun

1. a member of an ancient Jewish group or sect distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law.

Matthew 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
-------------------------------------------------
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:40
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
John 9:41
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Think about this:
A sincere repentance is based on sincerely regretting one's actions that were sin. If we are truly regretting those actions, then we must admit that had we known back then what we know now, we would have never done those things in the first place. Therefore, we were ignorant, blind and dumb.

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. <--- Jesus full of Grace .... So trust in his words because His righteousness comes into your heart by grace through faith, in him.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Anyone who thinks they know better than God about what is best for them is deceived into believing God is untrustworthy ---> They have a corrupt image of god in their heart.


How about saying I didn't see, or I was blind and dumb? Or do you think it is wise to frustrate God's Grace? Remember that the sin remained in those Blind pharisees because they said that they see. (Just like you saying we have no excuse).

So think about this:
Phar·i·see
[ˈferəˌsē]
noun

1. a member of an ancient Jewish group or sect distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law.

Matthew 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
-------------------------------------------------
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:40
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
John 9:41
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Think about this:
A sincere repentance is based on sincerely regretting ones actions that are sin. If we are truly regretting those actions, then we must admit that had we known back then what we know now, we would have never done those things in the first place. Therefore, we were ignorant, blind and dumb.

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. <--- Jesus full of Grace .... So trust in his words because His righteousness comes into your heart by grace through faith, in him.

before accusing others or should i say accursing? look in your own heart, you have no right to judge

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

before accusing others or should i say accursing? look in your own heart, you have no right to judge

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Yes, and Jesus never condemned anyone for obeying His Commandments, He said the opposite, if you love Me, keep My commandments. He only condemned those who kept their own law, much like the Pharisees did, over obeying God's law. He called them the spiritual blind, but people believe what they want. Its sad this is even a debate, just shows how far we have gone.. 2 Timothy 4:3 Thankfully, another sign of His soon return!

Mat 15:1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

 

[childeye 2]

Its about Adam not being deceived as stated, seems pretty plain to me.

1 Tim 2: 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

It's about a man having authority over a woman.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Are you saying we don't need to keep the letter of the law?

Yes, I don't keep the letter of the law, I follow the Spirit of Christ Who is the true Image of God, and I follow his commandments.

We can now worship other gods,

There's only One God ---> Source of the energy that formed all things, and His Christ is the True image He sent, not imagined by any creature. So it's not possible to worship other gods. Moreover, true worship is drawn out by the object of worship, and God is worthy

vain His holy name

I assume you meant use his name in vain. The Spirit of Christ has never commanded me to take God's name in vain.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

, steal, lie, break His holy Sabath day, bow to false idols?

The Spirit of Christ has never led me to do any of these things.

Thats interesting, Paul says those who do these things walk in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and won't inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus will say depart from My ye who practice lawlessness Mat 7:23 Surely you are misunderstanding what the letter means, it means death, the letter of the law calls for death, the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 not I can literally break the Ten Commandments and be in harmony with God's Spirit, this is what God is calling out of our rebellion from Heb 3:;7-8 walking in the Spirit means one is keeping God’s commandments, not breaking them 1 John 3:24

Following the Spirit of Christ doesn't mean breaking his commandments. It means I don't depend on the letter of the law for righteousness because I have the Spirit of Christ commanding me.

Are you saying that Jesus fulfilled the letter so we can now worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal, lie, break His holy Sabbath day, bow to false idols or break the least of these commandments? So God's Spirit is leading us away from keeping God's law? Despite all the Scriptures I posted that state otherwise and breaking God's law makes one an enmity to God, dishonoring Him and sinning?

The Spirit of Christ fulfills the letter of the law ---> See Matthew chapters 5-7 ---> example Matthew 5:27, 28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Righteousness means right and wrong. God does not leave it up to us to define what is right and wrong as our version of righteousness is as fifthly rags Isa 64:6

I understand God's righteousness in terms of virtue.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.