Created to Be His Help-Meet

[rosalind110]

mbams also said:-
Having said that, I think both are wrong, the husband just doing what he wants, or the wife just doing what she wants, and expecting the other to just drag along. I think marriages weaken on either extreme. I tell my husband what I am thinking about, and what direction I feel called to and we discuss it. He often gives me insights and advice on how to deal with things, and often gives me great direction. I do the same with him. Remember, part of who I am as an individual is a married woman. The choices I make, like the choices my husband makes, are obviously going to be conducive to the unity of our marriage

Mbams,

If I have it correct, you are not against the principle of submission itself, but rather against a certain brand of submission which to you would seem to make one partner in a marriage situation less equal and important than the other. This I can understand, although it is a fact that some women thrive and blossom in a more controlled and regimented environment while others would feel constricted and limited in the same circumstances. However, in my experience, the type of communication and connection that you describe in the 'good' childcare scenario often appears to be more common in relationships in which there is a submssive wife / leader husband factor than it is in a marriage where this is not a factor.

Sorry if this isn't making much sense as it is late here and I am tired.

Regards.
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

I am afraid that what Christalee tells us about the Pearls' 'advice' on child rearing would frankly distract me from anything good or useful that they had to say about the husband/wife relationship and prevent me from seeing it in a positive light. Although I do not think that this was the same people, I recall reading what I initially thought was good advice on a Christian husband and wife ministry website, until I came to a part where they advocated slapping a ten month old child to 'discipline' him or her (I think they said to stop demand crying) and going on to even more serious stuff with toddlers. To me that just seemed cruel and dreadful because often crying is the only form of communication a young child has and to hurt him for 'talking' to you is dreadful and frightening.

 

[Leanna]

Someone's been busy today!

 

[rosalind110]

Conteuse said:-

I was a happily submitting wife, with right attitudes and everything. Was molding myself to him, to try and be his dream girl, as you put it. He hated it. Loathed it, and asked me to please stop submitting to him! Told me he married an intelligent, independent woman, with her own likes and preferences, and what on earth had I done with her? In fact, I did severe harm to our marriage by submitting to him more along the lines of what you describe. When I slowly started to speak up more, make more decisions without consulting him, and indulge myself in my own interests again, he was much happier and our marriage got a lot better. Even sexually.

(He explained that he was attracted to me as an equal partner, but when I put myself into a subserviant position to him, submitting to him and trying to meet his needs and all, he saw me as more of a child and not an equal... and he wasn't interested in having sex with a child! When I started acting like an adult again, suddenly things in that department improved immensely.)

Two comments on this.

First your understanding about what constitutes 'submission' in the context that is used here. In my opinion the biblical principle of submission to a husband isn't as extreme and one sided as many people seem to believe. If you were to play-act a sort of scenario in which you hung on and obeyed your husband's every request without question just because he had asked you do it, then I think that most husbands would feel cheated by the fact that you were no longer be the person that your he courted and married. To me it just means that, while remaining the same person you were before, and exerting your right to question, tease and be a full and vital part of any family decision or change, you accepted his right to 'final decision' when it was needed if at all. I have often said that there seems to be a marked amount of confusion between the act of 'submitting' to certain decisions, and the spiritual state of 'being submissive' 24/7, For many couples, while the former is acceptable and workable, - the latter makes drastic and unwanted changes that can alter and weaken the entire fabric of the marriage unless it is sincerely what both partners want.

Just another way of looking at these things.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Christalee said:-

Mrs E: "Submitting and molding yourself to hubby means you do what hubby likes of you- which in your case would be developing outside interests in activities and making more descisions, apparently. A hubby may not appreciate it if in the name of surrender his wife pesters him every day about what clothes she should wear or what food she should cook. That would just be annoying. A good wife sees to please her man, not force him to make all the descisions when he wants her to make some too. You do realize that if hubby asks where you want to go out to eat and your only answer is, "Wherever you wish", that that is not submissive. The woman would actually be refusing to answer his question. She would not be submissive to his wishes."

Please don't portray a classic dominant/submissive relationship as Biblical. Many would call it perverted, frankly.

.............................However, in a relationship between husband and wife, it is not healthy, especially when there are children involved.

Christalee,

I am not sure that Mrs E actually said that this biblical and therefore appicable to every marriage. I know that she has said that her form of submission is how she and her husband perceive the role of a biblical submissive wife as applied to their particular relationship, but she has also made it clear that this is a situation in which they personally have found comfort and harmony and that it isn't necessarily right for everyone else.

Secondly even if it equates with your perception of a 'classic dominant/submissive relationship', exactly how is that 'perverted' when it is a private arrangement between a loving husband and wife? Isn't that a little personal and judgemental when applied to another couple's private life?

Finally, although someone raised the point that the Pearls also advocate what I for one would deem inappropriate treatment of children, I haven't been able to find anything in the Enigma's posts to suggest that they apply any of these tennets to their children or family life or that they employ any of their discipline techniques in front of their children, so it doesn't seem quite fair to assume that they do.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[christalee4]

I am afraid that what Christalee tells us about the Pearls' 'advice' on child rearing would frankly distract me from anything good or useful that they had to say about the husband/wife relationship and prevent me from seeing it in a positive light. Although I do not think that this was the same people, I recall reading what I initially thought was good advice on a Christian husband and wife ministry website, until I came to a part where they advocated slapping a ten month old child to 'discipline' him or her (I think they said to stop demand crying) and going on to even more serious stuff with toddlers. To me that just seemed cruel and dreadful because often crying is the only form of communication a young child has and to hurt him for 'talking' to you is dreadful and frightening.

Thank you Ros., and God bless you for verifing those details...

 

[rosalind110]

Xenia said:-
The stronger a person is in the Lord, the more humble and self-sacrificing a person becomes. The more humble and self-sacrificing a person becomes, the less likely he is to require submission from anyone. So I would say that husbands who require the most submission from their wives are the weakest in the Lord

Xenia,

While I think that this is a very valid point, I confess that I see it a little differently from you. This is because most couples who believe in wifely submission (or at least those who I know) regard the arrangement as very much a two way street in which leadership comes with accountibility, a responsibilty to treat one's wife with respect, fairness and consideration, and most of all, sufficient humilty to accept that it isn't weakness to be wrong. Also, in my opinion, true submission is a gift and not something that can be 'required' of someone else unless they are willing to give it. Given these conditions, I feel that, while I would not argue the validity of your words at all, they don't really constitute an argument against submission in marriage.

God Bless,

Ros

 

[christalee4]

Christalee,

Can you please define the 'classic Dominant/masochistic situation' in this context - I can see where you might say that it was Dominant/submissive, but masochism involves enjoyment of pain whereas in the situation that Mrs E describes although there is perhaps enjoyment of her husband's dominance over her, there is no hint of anything remotely physically or emotionally painful.

I think you know what I am talking about.

Any woman who anticipates possible punishment, whether it is verbal, or lack of, or a potential order to get to one's room, to possibly submit to either a forced [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] or spanking, or talking to, is certainly involved in the classic Dominant/Masochistic relationship.

Not that there is any wrong with that, if it is indeed mutual.

 

[rosalind110]

Athene said:-
I wonder why couples who have a headship/submission type relationship believe that women who don't submit are always involved in some kind of power struggle with their husbands?

And I wonder where you got the idea that all couples, "who have a headship/submission type relationship believe that women who don't submit are always involved in some kind of power struggle with their husbands" As part of one of the 'all couples' in question, I would perhaps go so far as to say that some couples do have a 'power struggle' issue, but I also do not think that this applies to all couples whether or not they have a headship/submission arrangement. In fact it is clear from reading on this thread alone that there are many couples who have very well balanced relationships and for whom power-struggle is not an issue at all.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Christalee said:-
I think you know what I am talking about.Any woman who anticipates possible punishment, whether it is verbal, or lack of, or a potential order to get to one's room, to possibly submit to either a forced [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] or spanking, or talking to, is certainly involved in the classic Dominant/Masochistic relationship.

Not that there is any wrong with that, if it is indeed mutual.

Mu issue with this was the use of the term 'masochistic', because, even if the relationship involves a consensusual Dominant/submissive element from which both partners get an indirect element of 'rightness' or pleasure, it does not follow that just because they consensually agree to a particular form of discipline and don't live in terror or fear of it, that it is enjoyable in itself in the way that a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] enjoys the reception of pain for pain itself. Hard to explain to someone who isn't involved in this kind of dynamic, but if that isn't very clear. I can try to think of another way to define the difference. If you had said Dominance/submission it would, I think have been closer to the mark.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Johnnz said:-
I find it sad that modern Christians, unaware of the cultural context of the NT church, assign to Paul views that he never held, such as male leadership. Paul in his writings challenged every major social convention of the surrounding Roman culture, which was centerd around class, status, power, patriarchy and racial superiority. When you become aware of Paul's environment you can see how cleverly he wrote, giving the apperance of upholding Roman social values so as to avoid unnecessary state opposition to the new community, yet undermining the very basis on which Roman values were based

John, while your knowledge of contemporary New Testament history is clearly much better than mine, the fact remains that, in defiiance of the culture of the time or not, in several places in his letters, Paul outlines his plan for the husband/wife relationship in the context of the Christian ethic. It does seem that to me part of this plan is to exhort wives to submit to their husbands because, in his words (and I know that translations and opinions differ on the details and complexities of this),

[BIBLE]Ephesians 5:23 "The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church."[/BIBLE]

also

[BIBLE] Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord
[/BIBLE]

Admittedly the second refererence does not go into the business of leadership in the way that the first does, but it does seem to specify that a wife must submit to her husband, whereas there is no corresponding instruction to a husband. Slightly ambiguous perhaps, but still appears to be a pretty clear indication of the marriage status quo.

Having said that, since, your knowledge of biblical contemporary language and cultural matters is obviously much better than my own, (actually mine is virtually non-existant) could it be that I am missing something here?

Thank you for your help.

Regards
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Lfoxx said:-
Amen to that Mbams and Leanna!

"Amen" to what????

Ros

Edit to the above, because I am not sure how to delete the post altogether.

In retrospect, I agree with the opinions that several members have expressed that it is too long after after the original debate for this question to be make any sense or have any current releavance, and I would thyerefore request that you disregard the post altogether.

Apologies and thanks,

Ros

 

[Leanna]

"Amen" to what????

Ros

This is getting really out of hand. You came in too late in the discussion, if you would like to discuss particular issues start another thread, just a warning, most people arent reading this one anymore and honestly I havent read the past pages that youve obviously put work into. Its just too much!

 

[rosalind110]

Leanna said:-
That would be a good answer, but I have a hard time understanding this based on the last thread we met in. Maybe you view of that particular issue is different than the website that was provided. What do you think? Did you look at that particular website? Because those women were clearly treated like slaves and the husband was clearly the slavemaster.

Forgive me for commenting on something that was not directed at me, but, since I live in a similar way to the lady of whom you asked the question, I hope that you will not mind if I respond.

Without knowing exactly which web site to which you were referring and whether it was in fact a DD, D/s, M/s or BDSM site, I can say that the question of whether, "those women were clearly treated like slaves and the husband was clearly the slavemaster" is probably in the eyes of the beholder and would depend on their personal perception about their treatment and whether it has negative connotations for them. If they are happy and it is where they want to be and they are not trying to 'convert' anyone else then it doesn't seem to be harmful for anyone else. Concern that it might not be consensual and that some women might have been forced into an abusive situation that they cannot get away from is always valid and never wasted, as is the kind of of lifeline offer that some individuals have given here, because chances are that, out of the vast number of people involved in such relationships, there are bound to be a small number who are desperate for such a way out, but the fact is that in my quite extensive experience of this, the great majority of people weren't co-erced or brainwashed living that kind of life, but actually made a free, voluntary and informed personal choice to seek it out.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[Leanna]

You see Leanna, even without knowing exactly which web site to which you were referring and whether it was in fact a DD, D/s, M/s or BDSM site, I can say with confidence that whether, "those women were clearly treated like slaves and the husband was clearly the slavemaster" depends entirely on their personal feelings about their treatment and not on the opinion or judgement of someone who isn't them and doesn't know the feelings of their hearts and minds. If they are happy, it is where they want to be and they are not trying to 'convert' you, then I honestly cannot see why it is such it is a problem for you and the people here. Concern that it might not be consensual and that some women might have been forced into an abusive situation that they cannot get away from is always valid and never wasted, as is the kind of of lifeline offer that some individuals have given here, because chances are that, out of the vast number of people involved in such relationships, there are bound to be a small number who are desperate for such a way out, but the fact is that most people weren't co-erced or brainwashed living that kind of life, actually made a free, voluntary and informed personal choice to seek it out and don't want to be 'rescued' from it however odd and undesirable it might seem to you.

Best regards,

Ros

Dude.... don't come in late and expect to have any idea what you are talking about... I gave my position on this on the other thread.... people who *want* to be physically punished by their husband, or people who *want* to punish their wife have had some emotional issues that they need counseling for..... its an emotional sickness. I'm not going to look at someone with bulemia and think they are "well" and neither will I think that about DD.... it is something that needs help. And if you want to talk about this further, do so elsewhere, im going to take this off subscribe and not return to this thread because its getting annoying. bye

 

[rosalind110]

In fact the last posts to this thread were only a few days ago and I have received a substantial number of replies both here and in private messages so I'll take my chances and let other people respond if they want to, which I am sure they will if anything is of interest to them. If the thread dies a death, then all well and good, but for the moment it sems alive and well. As to discussing 'particular issues' by which I assume you mean things unrelated to the thread's subject, every post I have made has been a direct response to something that has been discussed specifically on this thread and evert post has included a quote from, or reference to, the original comment, so in fact I haven't intentionally deviated from the subject in hand.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Leanna said

"And if you want to talk about this further, do so elsewhere, im going to take this off subscribe and not return to this thread because its getting annoying."

No problem Leanna, that is your decision, but for myself I will stick around and let people talk if they want to - if they don't then a lack of responses will be an indication of that and nothing will be lost.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

InTheFlame said,

"I deliberately just grabbed the action-stuff from your post, because I was struck by something I've noticed before, when talking to women who believe specifically in female submission to husbands. Hubby and I simply BOTH do ALL these things for each other.

I'm not saying this to point out differences, but similarities between the 'female submission' and 'mutual submission' models. Hmmm. Interesting.

This is a very valid point.

In fact, I think that this is basically what we are all looking for, but that we just have slightly different ways of going about finding it. Personally I definitely feel that biblical submission, whether you approach it from the female or mutual direction is very much a two way street and is dependent on a climate of respect and consideration on both sides. Harmony and connection can't easily be established without these elements.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

ageyvesam said:-



Wow, how different situations are. What works for one couple will not always work for another couple!! If this kind of submissive relationship works for some marriages, great, but lets not tell everyone that it is the only kind of biblical sound marriage.

I think for this to be successful, you need a submissive wife and a dominent husband. Most modern men, IMO thank God, are not that dominent anymore. It is 2005, not 1950. A marriage is a partnership, not a lord and master situation.

I don't think that Mrs Enigma was trying to impose her way of life or principles on anyone else because, just as you are, she seems to be aware that there are a number of different ways to achieve what you want and need from your life as a couple and what works well for one couple simply wouldn't work for another. I think her initial intention was perhaps to try to get us to have a look at the 'Created to be his Help-meet' book which she herself has found to be a useful tool in leading her in the direction she wants to go. Again, I'm not sure that it would be for everyone and, as I said earlier, I do have some issues with some of the other things that the authors say in regard to children, but it's still a good standpoint for discussion.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Food for thought. Paul was not a 21st Century man. We must intepret him in his own day and then apply his teaching to us, not the other way around. Herein lies much of my stance against the excesses of the submission teaching. It rests almost entirely upon imposing modern concepts onto the ancient text.

John
NZ

This was a very interesting and infomative post, which effectively answered many of the questions I asked earlier, but may I ask again how you would interpret those passages which directly refer to wifely submission and the one which says that, The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church'. I think that many of the arguments for wifely submission hang particularly on the latter (Ephesians 5) verses and it would be helpful to know whether these really mean what people think they mean or if perhaps they have been translated out of context and have a rather different meaning from what we think.

Best regards,

Ros