Created to Be His Help-Meet

[Cordy]

I can tell that is most important to you from having read many of your posts. Having read many of the thoughts and beliefs that you have shared with us, I wouldn't care to get into a debate over those beliefs.

My problem is not with you, or anyone in particular for that matter. Well, perhaps I need to correct that and say that my problem is not with anyone on CF.

The problem I see with this book is that women are being misled into believing a string of if only..., if only I were always happy; if only I always looked my best; if only I had looked better back then; my husband wouldn't have strayed. If only I kept the house in better shape, my husband wouldn't have left. If only I had the children under control, my husband wouldn't be angry again.

She doesn't just say the man is the head of the home, the leader of the family, she seems to take God out of the marriage, and substitute the husband for God.

Also, if anyone took a look at their writings, they'd notice that the Pearl's seem to deny original sin (see his teachings on Romans), and that man doesn't have a sin nature. This is gnosticism, not Christianity.

This another wonderful reason to discuss this book, because many fine Christian women are being misled into thinking that this book is written from a solidly Christian point of view. It is not.

Here here!

 

[B®ent]

Well, for perhaps the first time in this discussion it appears we all agree.

 

[Leanna]

quick, lock this puppy up!

 

[christalee4]

Judging by what you have said, the book sounds pretty messed up. I will not argue with that. I just don't understand why we cannot respect other convictions on this issue. On judgement day, Chistalee is not going to judge me. God is. And if I fail as the head of my house, God is going to judge me for that.

I just want nothing more than to do what is right. I wish she could TRY to understand.

Hi yall - I am with my children and moms at the family shelter tonight. The kids are putting on a cute little Christmas pageant.

Johannes Calvinius, I am not judging you on any day. Don't take offense, and do what you think is right. But understand that wisdom does come with experience too. God bless and keep you, and Merry Christmas....

 

[B®ent]

quick, lock this puppy up!

 

[rosalind110]

I'm mostly seeing 'submission' explained as a list of things it ISN'T. A woman is being submissive if she isn't nagging, isn't disrespectful, isn't rebellious or argumentative. Well there you go, I'm submissive by default. I don't set out to be submissive, I just set out to avoid nagging, to be respectful and considerate, to support and encourage my husband... to live in peace with him.

A conversion to 'submission' seems to happen, for a lot of christian women, when they let go of negative behaviour toward their husbands and embrace positive, loving behaviour.


Personally, I think you have this precisely right. It isn't a case of inequality, one spouse not listening to the other's feelings and opinions, or one spouse behaving in a dictatorial or contrlooing way toward the other - it is about treating each other with loving respect, consideration and courtesy. Probably the only difference between your philosophy and mine is that, for my husband and myself, there are times when we, despite extensive discussion, exchange of ideas, and more talk, there are rare times when we still can't mutually come to a decision, and on those occasions, we have
pre-agreed that, biblically he, as the head of the marriage, will have final say. The reality of the thing is that this privilege is rarely exercised because, more often than not, we will each take on board what the other has to say, go away and think about it and then come back together and either find a way midway point of compromise, or just agree that the other's way is best. However, we do find that 'final say' is a fairly painless way to resolve something we can't get past after all negotiations are said and done. I realise that this would cause resentment and discomfort for some women, but it works well for us.

Regards,
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

"Like I said - our relationship would falter if I left it all up to Brad's decisions - solely because he would believe I didn't care anymore"

Sascha,

I think that this where people misunderstand the 'submit to your husband' thing. It isn't a matter of leaving all the decisions and responsibility to one partner and not sharing as an equal in the marriage; it is about going through the discussion, negotiation and listening and talking process and then, if at the end of the day, you find that you truly cannnot come to a mutual decision or compromise, no matter what, allowing one partner to have 'final say' in order to resolve the matter causing the problem. Based on what the bible says about the husband being the head of the wife and the wife submitting to him, it is usually the husband who has this 'final say' and, hopefully, the fact that this privilege has been pre-agreed will lessen or eliminate any feelings of resentment if the final decision doesn't go precisely the wife's way. Not, as I say, an ideal scenario for every couple, but one which works for some of us.

Regards,
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

This kinda worries me. If you are content with things in your marriage, why did you feel the need to say this list of things that your husband makes you do?

Why would he send you to bed if you were upset about something spiritual in nature? Wouldn't he want to explain it to you so that you feel you understand the issue? He makes you get intimate when you are crabby? This list of things worries me because though you comply and act submissive, this sounds more like dominating/controlling in the wrong sort of way. Especially the statement about the "smackdown" made by your husband. If he meant that seriously then I am really worried. I know Mrs. Enigma you say that you are very content and happy with your marriage, but what I have read here is more than the Biblical submitting to your husband, it is your husband controlling and telling you what to do and sending you to your room if you don't comply or act in a manner he doesn't like. This is submission overkill. You don't sound equal to your husband at all (which you should be and are) you sound about on a level of that of your children when it comes to your relationship with him.

I'm just wondering, does it really matter if other people don't like these discipline and household organisation methods provided that Mrs E is happy with both them and with her husband? And honestly, wasn't that 'smack down' thing just a bit of gentle teasing because of the picture that that we have painted of Mr E? Can't we just lighten up and let the lady tell us how it works for her? At this point, I do see some dictatorial and opinionated talk, but most of it isn't coming from Mr E.

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

That is true. I would rather go without than order her to do it. My first thought would be her happiness.

Yitzchak,

It seems that Mrs E enjoys her submissive status and her husband's control as is the case with some women, so I think that it is quite possible that his dominance in lovemaking is a part of that and is actually part of the emjoyment for her.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

You a) smile w/ big glee and say, that's a SUPERB idea hun...all the while dying to flesh and biting your tongue as not to share how you REALLY feel

b) You let him know how it isn't possible to get it, bc of finances,and suggest if he wants to get it-either he look for a part time job, or allow you to look for one. If he says no, I'm getting it.......what do you say then?

Since you asked -

Problem with this scenario - a Godly husband who is fulfilling his Christian role in the marriage is responsible to his wife as a fellow Christian and to God in his role of head of household. Ergo - he isn't going to ask this question if he is leader of the marriage according to biblical terms.

Second problem with this scenario - would it be any easier if he wasn't Head of household? I mean, what would you do under those circumstances? Maybe have a screaming row and then he'd get it anyway, but only after the trust and connection between you had undergone an even worse break than it would have if you had said, '"I don't like it, but do what you like"

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

My fellow CF citizens.... let's call this what it is, Domestic Discipline or BSDM. This is not Christian submission and I think we should stop acting like it is one and the same.

Since you have seen fit to introduce this particular concept to the thread, could you specify in more detail, what led you to draw this conclusion? I ask because I have myself not been able to to find any references or similarities to what you describe.

Many thanks
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

I would not say "hate his guts", what I would and have said is that I think he is too controlling/domineering in many aspects of your marriage, taking the submission thing a bit too far, so I don't necessarily approve, but "hate his guts" wouldn't apply here

.



With respect, if the lady who is the subject of this 'control' doesn't regard it as excessive and if the couple are happy and content with the way things are, who are we to make judgements about how they should conduct their marriage and what they are, or are not, taking "too far"? Since they do not appear to be trying to 'convert' anyone else, perhaps we should allow them the same freedom of choice as the rest of us have.

God Bless,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Rebellion is not a characteristic of a submissive heart. Submission is not supposed to be a war or uphill battle. There is in fact a great deal of harmony in it, as many Christians, including my folks, have come to realize over the years.

Amen to this, but unfortunately, you will find that a great many people will persist in seeing it as some sort of abusive game in which a husband imposes conditions and rules on his poor down-trodden and abused wife and will 'see' nothing that is written to the contrary. The fact that the wife offered up her submission voluntarily and both are happy and contented with the way in which their marriage works does not always prevent outsiders from wanting to 'improve on' something that seems wrong to them. Human nature to want to 'help' I suppose.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

So you think that what you see of the families at church is an acurate reprsentation of what goes on behind closed doors in in the hearts of those involved? Hmm... I think that is like going to a zoo and watching a monkey, and then saying you know what is like to be a monkey because you saw one. You see women at church. Do you think you know what it is like to be a woman? You can read in the Bible about the Noah's Arc; does that mean you know what it is like to have a worldwide flood? Knowledge from learning from others and the Word, and experiencing it yourself are different things.

mbams,


May I just ask, using the same points of reference as you set for Restformationist, how it is that you are so sure that what he sees in church is not representative "of what goes on behind closed doors in in the hearts of those involved"? Did you ever think that perhaps these people are sufficiently honest and unashamed of how they conduct their marriages to rejoice in and be open about these things? Or perhaps we are to judge everything we see and read with suspicion and doubt including the things we read in the bible unless, like 'doubting Thomas' we have each and every thing proved to us first hand. Do you have no faith in your own powers of observation or in the integrity of other people? How then do you have faith in Christianity as a whole when you have only read the details in a book and have not had proof that it happened or what it is like to be Christ?


Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

I'm worried that you're going to be in for a world of HURT when you finally get married.... or get a girlfriend who doesn't measure up to these enormous expectations that you seem to have already set.

And won't it be great idf he teams up with one of the many women who are looking for exactly what he is offering?

 

[rosalind110]

Forgot one thing. I had touched on this in a previous post (which seems to have gotten ignored!)
We are all different and unique, and every marriage is going to be unique and different. What works for one couple may not work for another.
I look at our youth minister and his wife. She is every out spoken, opinionated and at times, hard headed. There have been times I have thought that she could be more submissive. But, to hear him talk about her, he wouldn't have her any other way. Yes, they argue a lot, but they love each other dearly. He told me that there was another girl at one time he almost married. She was quieter, and would have been more submissive (by what he's told me). But, he chose the one he's with because he knew with her, life would always be an adventure and never boring.
Now, they are young and eventually maybe she will become more of a 'submissive' wife, but maybe not. Apparently, the way they do things works for them. And he has said he wouldn't change her one bit.
So, is their marriage unbiblical?

Rosie,

You have hit the nail on the head with your this sentence here:-

"We are all different and unique, and every marriage is going to be unique and different. What works for one couple may not work for another.

That is precisely it in my opinion. If you have an arrangement which you are satisfied in your own hearts is according to God's will and both partners feel loved, respected, safe and contented and you are hurting no-one else in the process, then I cannot see how it could be a sin or unbiblical, and I do not think that you as a couple, let alone anyone outside the marriage, need to worry about it even if it is slightly unconventional in the modern sense of the word.

Regards,
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

I once dated a guy who, believe it or not, who sounded a whole lot like you. He was about your age at that time, and thought he had figured marriage out before he got there. He found it very frustrating when things didn’t magically turn out the way he thought they would under his perfect little structure. He is now married, and, apparently, in pretty bad shape. I am not saying that all who believe as you do will not have good marriages or anything of that sort. But I think there is an obvious danger of presuming that you have everything figured out, and that that, and only that is the godly way to life. Life is much more diverse and flexible than that, and with so rigid thoughts on how things are to be, one can easily get disoriented when confronted with reality.

mbams,

I'm assuming from this that this is the only marriage that you know of that is in 'pretty bad shape', otherwise it doesn't really prove anythinng except that the man in question wasn't the right person for you, does it? As for being young, well yes, we were all young once, and a surprising number of us made a pig's ear of the first try at marriage because we didn't know what we or our partners wanted at that age. Maybe Johannes does know and he won't make the same mistakes. Let's face it, all of us know 40 years olds who behave as if they were 20, and by the same token, lots of us are acquainted with 20 year olds who have the common sense and maturity of someone with twice the age and experience. Using the age factor as a convenient put-down is cheating just a little.

Regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

All this issuing orders and such is NOT how Jesus treated the church. Jesus didn't say "jump" and the disciples say "how high?" He didn't declare how his disciples needed discipline or the "smack down" either

Very true, and He wasn't married to them either - so the wifely submission rules as set down in the bible didn't apply. As for 'smack dowm' which was a joke in this thread anyway, personally, I thought He did a pretty good job of smacking down and disciplining those traders who were using His Father's house as a place of business.

 

[rosalind110]

submission works best when the husband is also following the command to love his wife as christ loves the church. Seems to me that in Mrs. E's marriage her husband lacks a little bit in that area! Reason i say that is..he shoulda put the garbage in the jeep himself and taken it out! my hubby would have for sure! my hubby also would have stacked the wood himself and not had me do it

But karenmarie, if Mrs Enigma didn't regard her husband's treatment of her as unloving, then where is the problem? Perhaps her standards are a little different from yours, but that does not make them wrong or unsuitable for the Es.

 

[rosalind110]

So, why are there always so many threads on wives submitting, and rarely threads on husbands loving wives as Christ loved the church?

I would think because it is usually submissive wives who start the threads and they take this aspect for granted as part and parcel of the deal and something that automatically follows. Maybe somebody should start an 'other side' view thread.