Created to Be His Help-Meet

[rosalind110]

i just had to snip these two paragraphs to say..wow! I agree completely that it seems many here are confused about what true biblical submission really is. They are arguing against their own "false idea" which will get them nowhere!

I have had a similar impression, but from annother perspective. What I have picked up on is that what seem to be loving and healthly relationships which are each unique to the couples within them, have been lumped together and judged as a whole by a single standard that assumes that they are all abusive and one sided. Since most of the arguments against the submissive marriages are based solely on those precepts and most couples within the relationships deny that they are so, it could be said that the oppenents of this brand of submission are also arguing from the standpoint of a 'false idea'.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

If you take a moment to read my posts, you would find that I believe what I believe because of what I have studied in scripture. I, at one point, thought that I had to adopt the submission thing in a similar manner as you do. But after studying the Word in depth, and praying and growing with my husband in marriage, I have come to believe very differently. I will not claim I have it down pat. I am still learning and growing. But I think it is rather shallow and judgmental of you and the others on this board who finger point at us who don’t agree with you, and tell us that we don’t “get” biblical submission (but you do), that we are worldly etc.

I may be alone in this, but, as someone who is reading posts from both yourself and Johannes for the first time, my impression is that he is simply explaining how he would like his own marriage to be, but is claiming no experience, maturity or infallibility in his views, while you are outright telling him and several other people that their interpretation of the scriptures in wrong and they should change both the way they perceive these and the beliefs on which their lives are based to tally with your 'correct' ones. I honestly can't see a place where Johannes is 'instructing' his elders, but I can see plenty of places where others are imposing their opinions and judgements on the lives of people with whom they disagree.

 

[rosalind110]

Yeah I agree, I mean when it comes down the nitty-gritty details of the Enigma's marriage, well yeah some of that was rather like "umm....ok". I mean they seem content with their marriage and thats up to them. I just don't agree with a lot of their ideas of what submission is, and that isn't going to change anything obviously. Sometimes I wonder if its for a certain degree of "shock factor" we are being told all these little details, and also that there are things being withheld. This is up to them and so I say whatever, its your marriage but don't expect me to have the same ideas about mine

I think there is possibily a misunderstanding here. While the discussion has been about different aspects and views of what 'submission' means in the biblical sense, and everyone has openly and freely shared their own views on the matter, I don't think there has been any obvious attempt to 'convert' anyone else or to impose on other people conditions and ideas which would not be comfortable or right for them.

As to whether we are being fed details for 'shock factor', I wouldn't like to judge the motives and honesty of my fellow members here on CF in such a way.

Best regards,
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

classic dominant/masochistic situation

Christalee,

Can you please define the 'classic Dominant/masochistic situation' in this context - I can see where you might say that it was Dominant/submissive, but masochism involves enjoyment of pain whereas in the situation that Mrs E describes although there is perhaps enjoyment of her husband's dominance over her, there is no hint of anything remotely physically or emotionally painful.

 

[rosalind110]

Mrs Enigma says:-
" Nobody can make their wife be submissive"

then karenmarie responds:-
"Nowhere in the bible does it tell your husband that his job is to make you submit"

It looks as if we agree on more than we think we do, because it would appear that Mrs Enigma and karenmarie are saying much the same thing.

Best regards,
Ros

 

[rosalind110]

I removed the contents of what I posted here because I now see that my comments were inappropriate and too personal.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

And if your hubby says no fellowshipping at all?
are you going to still submit?

According to the biblical description of a fellowship as, 'where two or three meet together' a husband and wife, as two people, would technically quailfy for the description. On the moral question of submission versus the other directions in the bible, I suppose that one would have to weigh up the pros and cons of the matter, pray and listen, and then go with your own heart.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Interesting theory.
My mother was married to man, who for 12 years beat her weekly.
In the end he tore up her bibles, didnt want her going to church, and blaphemed God in front of a crowd of us.

Are you absolutely sure that in the end being submissive to a point of allowing any behavior from a husband will win him?

My life says no.
The man is still a woman beating madman who would blaspheme at any point that Gods name is brought up.

Submission works in many cases, in some it futile.
We must look at who it is that is being submitted to.
Is this a good man who seeks the best for his wife and home or is this secretly a self-seeking individual who manipulates anything he can to get his own way.

What if your husband tells you to say nasty things to someone?
What if he wants you to dress up like his old girlfriend and have sex with you while calling you by her name?
What if he wants you to walk naked around your private property?

What if he likes rough anal sex and demands it and you dont want it?
(sorry, but it happens)

Somehow, I think some of you ladies wouldnt submit to some of the things I could come up with.
And believe me, Ive seen some sick husbands out there asking for some sick things from their wives

I admit that this is a difficult one. The bible says that a wife has to submit to her husband whether or not he is a believer, and that submission can lead him to Christ, but it does seem that, in reality, some men are not worthy of this kind of submission and will take advantage of submissive behaviour in order to abuse and harm their wives.

Some wives I know would have us believe that faith and belief in God's power will change a man who behaves in this way into a good husband, but each of these women, although submissive, has a husband she knows she can trust implicitly to treat her with care, respect and love, the same belief might not be so easy to follow if their husbands were abusive and dangerous men.

 

[Marie D]

Sascha,

I think that this where people misunderstand the 'submit to your husband' thing. It isn't a matter of leaving all the decisions and responsibility to one partner and not sharing as an equal in the marriage; it is about going through the discussion, negotiation and listening and talking process and then, if at the end of the day, you find that you truly cannnot come to a mutual decision or compromise, no matter what, allowing one partner to have 'final say' in order to resolve the matter causing the problem. Based on what the bible says about the husband being the head of the wife and the wife submitting to him, it is usually the husband who has this 'final say' and, hopefully, the fact that this privilege has been pre-agreed will lessen or eliminate any feelings of resentment if the final decision doesn't go precisely the wife's way. Not, as I say, an ideal scenario for every couple, but one which works for some of us.

Regards,
Ros

This is precisely my understanding of how God commands us to run our marriages.

 

[rosalind110]

"No one here has a right to tell a wife to submit to her husband unless they themselves would permit a man to brutally sodomize them or some other profane thing required from him."

Absolutely right. No one here (or anywhere else) has the right to "tell a wife to submit to her husband" in any circumstances. The decision to offer/receive the voluntary gift of submission is one to be made between husband and wife according to their own consciences, beliefs and hearts. On the other hand, I personally would not equate the profanities that you describe with requirements of submission either.

Best regards,

Ros

 

[rosalind110]

Husband does not equal God. I do not submit to him as if he were God because he is NOT God

This is true, but,[BIBLE] 'The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church',[/BIBLE] so, in that context he could be said to be Christ's representative in the marriage, It is possibly similar to respecting the authority of a Priest or minister in certain biblical matters.

On the question of 'obey' in the bible, I do not think this word is used in the context of the husband/wife relatioship, but the word 'submit' is used many times and means, according to a dictionary:-

to yield to governance or authority
to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : [size=-1]SURRENDER[/size] b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something
to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another

which seems pretty close to me

 

[Cordy]

This is true, but,[BIBLE] 'The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church',[/BIBLE] so, in that context he could be said to be Christ's representative in the marriage, It is possibly similar to respecting the authority of a Priest or minister in certain biblical matters.

No way! The husband is NOT Christ's representative in marriage. That is false doctrine. We are saved through Christ alone – NOT our husbands. Paul is talking to a culture of men who have no idea how to love their wives, for they are expected to treat them as sub-human. He is trying to give them an example of what it is to love. Look to Christ. Look to how He loves us. THAT is how you love your wife. Follow that example. It is in no way implying that women need a priest-husband to learn about or have a relationship with God.

 

[rosalind110]

I, too, view submission as coming into agreement with each other

Ideally I think this is how it should always be - a wife's loving submission as a gift to her husband. The only thing is that, Greek or whatever, in Ephseians 5, the phrase as a whole comes over as an instruction rather than a suggestion or request. I mean 'Wives submit to your husbands in everything'

 

[Cordy]

Rosalind, you are quoting people randomly all over the place. Could you please say who you are quoting?

 

[rosalind110]

No way! The husband is NOT Christ's representative in marriage. That is false doctrine. We are saved through Christ alone – NOT our husbands. Paul is talking to a culture of men who have no idea how to love their wives, for they are expected to treat them as sub-human. He is trying to give them an example of what it is to love. Look to Christ. Look to how He loves us. THAT is how you love your wife. Follow that example. It is in no way implying that women need a priest-husband to learn about or have a relationship with God.

I agree with the sentiment of love your wives by Christ's example, but this passage still clearly shows a 'chain of command' in the context of marriage, in that it speaks not of the direct communion of a woman/wife with God, but of her relationship with God through her husband's headship of the marriage. I do not believe that this precludes her from having a direct and separate personal relationship with God, but defines guidelines for this in the marriage situation.

 

[rosalind110]

Mbams said
Rosalind, you are quoting people randomly all over the place. Could you please say who you are quoting?

Oops - sorry mbams, you are quite correct - I am reading bacxk over an old thread and should have paid more attention to who said the words in the first place,

 

[rosalind110]

Sascha said:-
As long as the ultimate goal is for you guys to serve God together, and grow stronger as a team, and closer together - then God bless you in however you do that...

I think that says it all....................

 

[rosalind110]

Originally Posted by: Yitzchak

I could stuff chocolate cake in her mouth every time she was getting emotional also

Although this is rather a far out and novel idea and I realise that the intent was partly humorous, I cannot help but think that, if this is what made a wife happy when she was 'getting emotional' then it would still fit the bill! However, I do understand that if it were just a case of treating the symptoms and not the disease itself then it would not help matters at all.

 

[rosalind110]

LiberatedChick said:-

see what you're saying...doesn't matter how it's worded complying is still a choice and I do partly agree with that.

I'n not too sure about this. My feeling is that there a choice to submit or not to submit in general, but that, once you have made the choice to gift your submission to your husband, you cannot then take a 'convenient submission' stance and agree to the things that suit you and not to the things that don't. Similarly, once you have given your blanket submission, you can't make your response conditional on whether your husband gives a grumpy 'command style' request or a pleasantly phrased request including a 'please'. Having said that, I also believe that, while you are duty bound to submit, there is also no reason whatsoever why you should not voice your concern about the way in which he instructed you to do something and how it made you feel. Similarly, if there is a decision to be made, his right to make the final decision doesn't mean that your input on the matter is less vital than his, or that he shouldn't listen to and respect your concerns and input. Ultimately, the key to all this is that he, as your husband and the recipient of your submission, has a corresponding obligation of respect, love and care towards you and shouldn't speak to you in rude or abrupt terms. There again though, if, as in Mrs E's case, the commands don't feel disrespectful to the recipient, then the husband's obligstions are still intact.

 

[rosalind110]

mbams said:-

In pre-marriage counselling, our councillor told us that the best way to build a marriage is to always be building the other person up to be a strong individual. It might sounds weird to those who don’t look at it that way, but we have really found it to be a wonderful way to unite in marriage. My husband really encourages me to be “me”, and encourages me to pursue the things that I feel called to.

Odd as it may seem on the face of it, I know some people in some non Christian based and quite extreme 'Dominance/submission' marriages in which the husband technically has virtually total power over his wife, but in which the dominance is used in a constructive way in order to achieve a type of united strength not disimilar to what you describe in your post. Of course, while the aim is much the same, the methods used to attain it are quite different and probably not in keeping with the Christian ideal. There are a couple of examples that come to mind, but I will give you the one that to me shows the best example.

In this case, the wife is a lady who lacked confidence and faith in herself and was actually nervous and in awe of any kind of authority which she saw as a negative and slightly frightening thing. For some reason, despite this quirk of character, she actively sought out the dominant and authoritive qualities that she found in her now husband. In retrospect, she thinks that she was looking for her ideal of a postive authority used to nurture and develop and not to close up and limit. Her new partner became aware of her talents in the area of writing and creativity and set up a list of daily tasks, rather like those that Mrs E's husband imposes, except that they were directed at the business of developing her confidence and self esteem. They ranged from things like thinking of one good thing about herself each day, relating it to an example of something she had done in her life and writing the results in a diary to writing something creative on a particular subject. Discipline was reserved for those occasions on which she put herself down repeatedly and seriously and was always a last resort after much talking and effort to get her out of that mind set. Finally, he discovered that, as a child, she had loved reading very much and that her parents, who had instilled in her that she was no good as a person, had deprived her of this pleasure because she was 'bad'. He therefore set her a task to read all of the children's classic novels and fairytale books that she had missed out on as a child and eventually the parts of her emotions that had been deprived and harmed in her childhood were restored and she became a much stronger and more confident person within the marriage and in her lfe in general.

I do realise that this isn't directly related to the subject of the thread, but I am just trying to illustrate that even a degree of Dominance/submission which is way beyond that demanded by the Christian ideal, can be a positive and strengthening thing provided that the gift of submission is taken and used in a postive and constructive way which benefits the realtionship and those within it.

Enough rambling for now.

Regards,

Ros