On the Celebration of the Sabbath in Liturgical Churches

NBB · Mar 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Paul never taught not to obey God’s commandments. He taught the opposite 1 Cor 7:19

They were already keeping every Sabbath Acts 15:21 so it is mentioned. They were not determining everything Gentiles should keep as they didn't even mention the greatest commandments and I hope Gentiles don’t believe we don’t have to love God with all our heart and love our neighbor, the foundation of the entire bible, so thats not what was going on at the council. The premise was that Gentiles needed to be circumcised in order to be saved Acts 15:1 which eliminates the need of the blood of Jesus. Paul had to correct this thinking several times in different letters. The gentiles were already joining the church services with the Jews on the Sabbath Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 so it was a moot point.

We do not keep God’s law to be saved, its a reflection that Jesus has changed us from the inside out and we are connected to the Vine abiding in Him and in doing so one would be keeping His commandments John 15:5-10 1 John 2:6

There is a salvation issue on misunderstanding Paul 2 Peter 3:15-16 so we need to be careful and compare our understanding of his writing to what Jesus taught and kept. The apotles taught we ought to obey God over man.

"5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God."

My bible says that if i believe all days are alike i am doing no wrong. Is a matter of conscience and not a commandment for christians.

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

BobRyan said:
So then I may say I "criticize the Orthodox for its definition of ...."??

I typically don't do that.

I often point to differences in doctrine and how it is that the Bible says "A" very clearly even though someone else says "yes but by authority and tradition we teach 'B' instead"

I think you are the one that posted this.

No, I posted this:

The Liturgist said:
This does not mean we cannot discuss the divergent beliefs of our respective denominations, but rather that harsh polemics directed at one denomination or the other for its specific doctrine concerning the Sabbath I have come to realize is contrary to the moral imperatives contained in the Pauline epistles.

Your quote was missing the text in bold, which could have led to a misunderstanding.

I assume the omission was accidental.

For obviously the meaning of my post would be changed, and would be offensive both to myself and to Adventist members, if I had only written “concerning the sabbath I have come to realize is contrary to the moral imperatives contained in the Pauline epistles”, rather than “This does not mean we cannot discuss the divergent beliefs of our respective denominations, but rather that harsh polemics directed at one denomination or the other for its specific doctrine concerning the Sabbath I have come to realize is contrary to the moral imperatives contained in the Pauline epistles.”

The truncated post you quoted would make it look like I was saying that the Sabbath is contrary to the moral imperatives quoted in the Pauline epistles, when what I was actually saying is that writing harsh polemics about the approach different denominations have, doctrinally, regarding the sabbath, is contrary to the moral imperatives of the Pauline epsitles.

There is a vast gulf in meaning between the full quote and the abbreviated quote.

Therefore I must absolutely insist you exercise greater care to quote my remarks without abbreviation, since this partial quote could have led to serious misunderstandings.

I also request you edit your post to include the portion of my sentence that you accidentally omitted, or alternately just delete the quote.

NBB · Mar 28, 2025

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

If this was an important commandment these verses wouldn't be in the bible. God is not God of confusion.

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

NBB said:
"5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God."

My bible says that if i believe all days are alike i am doing no wrong. Is a matter of conscience and not a commandment for christians.

This quote from Romans underscores the importance of daily worship, which all Christian churches I am familiar with engage in, although unfortunately a great many do not have weekday services.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 28, 2025

NBB said:
"5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God."

My bible says that if i believe all days are alike i am doing no wrong. Is a matter of conscience and not a commandment for christians.

We should not be concerned with what people says, but what God said Exo 20:10

This entire chapter is about personal opinions, not about keeping or not keeping one of God’s commandments. Like people discuss today-should we observe Christmas or Easter. I guess thats why the Sabbath is not even mentioned once in this whole cheater because their discussion was never about the observance of obeying one of God’s commandments.

NBB · Mar 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
We should not be concerned with what people says, but what God said Exo 20:10

This entire chapter is about personal opinions, not about keeping or not keeping one of God’s commandments. Like we do today should we observe Christmas or Easter.

You are saying we shouldn't be concerned with what Paul wrote?

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

NBB said:
If this was an important commandment these verses wouldn't be in the bible. God is not God of confusion.

That’s a non sequitur. The verse says plainly not to let others judge us concerning how we commemorate the Sabbath, which is of importance, for on the Seventh Day was the repose of Christ our True God after recreating mankind on the Cross the previous day, before He rose again in glory on the Eighth Day, just as He had previously rested following the creation of humanity in the image of God in Genesis on the Seventh Day.

NBB · Mar 28, 2025

The Liturgist said:
That’s a non sequitur. The verse says plainly not to let others judge us concerning how we commemorate the Sabbath, which is of importance, for on the Seventh Day was the repose of Christ our True God after recreating mankind on the Cross the previous day, before He rose again in glory on the Eighth Day, just as He had previously rested following the creation of humanity in the image of God in Genesis on the Seventh Day.

Is not about commemorating, because the bible also says you can eat almost all what you want and there were people who forbid certain food, the same with people with law judging others because they do not kept it. So nobody should judge you for eating, and for doing or not the sabbath.

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
We should not be concerned with what people says

God spoke through St. Paul, his Epistles being the oldest part of the New Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit, which means God-breathed, meaning that they are as much what God said as any other writings in Scripture.

That said @NBB might possibly have misused St. Paul in the same way many people misuse St. Mark ch. 7 v. 13 to criticize traditional liturgical churches, although it now appears this is not the case:

NBB said:
Is not about commemorating, because the bible also says you can eat almost all what you want and there were people who forbid certain food, the same with people with law judging others because they do not kept it. So nobody should judge you for eating, and for doing or not the sabbath.

If by doing or not, @NBB you mean observing the Sabbath according to how the Jews kept it, I agree.

Since we know from Mark ch. 7 v. 13 that some Pharisaical traditions were in error, and we see evidence of this specifically in regards to the Sabbath in terms of inappropriate criticisms made of our Lord by the Pharisees.

However if your goal was to say the Sabbath is unimportant according to St. Paul clearly that is not the case. Rather he was opposed to the perpetuation of the Pharisaical doctrines which were written down by the Scribes in the Mishnah and then compiled in the Talmud together with Haggadah and various other Rabinnical writings, and subsequently codified in the Sulchan Aruch and in Maimonides.

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

NBB said:
Is not about commemorating, because the bible also says you can eat almost all what you want and there were people who forbid certain food, the same with people with law judging others because they do not kept it. So nobody should judge you for eating, and for doing or not the sabbath.

If by doing or not, you mean observing the Sabbath according to how the Jews kept it, I agree.

RandyPNW · Mar 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
We should not be concerned with what people says, but what God said Exo 20:10

This entire chapter is about personal opinions, not about keeping or not keeping one of God’s commandments. Like people discuss today-should we observe Christmas or Easter. I guess thats why the Sabbath is not even mentioned once in this whole cheater because their discussion was never about the observance of obeying one of God’s commandments.

That is a mischaracterization of what Paul was saying. He declared he was legally free to engage in certain activities in the NT that under the OT era had been wrong and which some people felt, in their immaturity, were still being required.

This was not a "personal opinion." He declared he was free under the New Covenant. He just admitted that spiritual growth must allow for some leniency in terms of understanding the transition from OT to NT requirements.

NBB · Mar 28, 2025

The Liturgist said:
God spoke through St. Paul, his Epistles being the oldest part of the New Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit, which means God-breathed, meaning that they are as much what God said as any other writings in Scripture.

That said @NBB did misquote St. Paul in the same way many people misquote St. Mark ch. 7 v. 13 to criticize traditional liturgical churches.

How i misqouted i just copy pasted from bible source.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 28, 2025

NBB said:
You are saying we shouldn't be concerned with what Paul wrote?

Who said that, what I am saying we shouldn’t read in what’s not there.

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

NBB said:
How i misqouted i just copy pasted from bible source.

Sorry, I had misread your post, please reread mine.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 28, 2025

RandyPNW said:
That is a mischaracterization of what Paul was saying. He declared he was legally free to engage in certain activities in the NT that under the OT era had been wrong and which some people felt, in their immaturity, were still being required.

This was not a "personal opinion." He declared he was free under the New Covenant. He just admitted that spiritual growth must allow for some leniency in terms of understanding the transition from OT to NT requirements.

Please post where it says we should not obey one of God’s commandments anywhere in this chapter

14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; [a]and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died [b]and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of [c]Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another [d]anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

One person, not the God of the Universe Who said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Eo 20:10 to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa 58:13

It would be like us discussing Easter or Christmas. If one wishes to keep, keep it unto the Lord, but its not one of God’s commandments.

Why the apostles never mentioned once in this entire chapter the Sabbath, because they were not referring to it as if man can countermand God. Best not to add what’s not there.

The Liturgist · Mar 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Who said that, what I am saying we shouldn’t read in what’s not there.

Indeed, but I am not sure @NBB actually did that. Which is why we should just not criticize each other on the issue of the Sabbath at all.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 28, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, but I am not sure @NBB actually did that. Which is why we should just not criticize each other on the issue of the Sabbath at all.

Sharing one’s interpetation of scripture is not criticizing. If thats the case what you are doing is the same thing you are accusing me of. The Sabbath is not mentioned in all of Romans and that is a fact. If you have Sacripture that shows something different, you can present these facts. If its not there we are told not to add Pro 30:5-6, not me God’s Word.

BobRyan · Mar 28, 2025

The Liturgist said:

"I posted this: This does not mean we cannot discuss the divergent beliefs of our respective denominations, but rather that harsh polemics directed at one denomination or the other for its specific doctrine concerning the Sabbath I have come to realize is contrary to the moral imperatives contained in the Pauline epistles.

agreed.

I read it as one sentence with two statements like this :

This does not mean we cannot discuss the divergent beliefs of our respective denominations, but rather that harsh polemics directed at one denomination or the other for its specific doctrine, concerning the Sabbath I have come to realize is contrary to the moral imperatives contained in the Pauline epistles.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

I have repaired my prior posts on that point to avoid misunderstanding.

BobRyan · Mar 28, 2025

BobRyan said:
Eph 6:1-3
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may turn out well for you, and that you may live long on the earth.

That's the Mosaic Law being quoted --

Ex 20:12 verbatim

trophy33 said:
It is a universal moral/ethical law, common among various nations. It is not exclusively an instruction found only in the Law of Moses.

There is no other quote like that outside the TEN that would be well known to the Ephesians.

Feel free to post evidence of such a thing if you have it.

trophy33 said:
When we say that we are not under the Mosaic Law, it does not mean we must be against anything that can be found there.

The problem with your statement is that Eph 6:1 give the imperative - as statement of Paul alone. BUT THEN He ADDS to that a direct quote of the TEN - Ex 20:12 verbatim -- a direct quote not found in any other body of law known to the Ephesians.

trophy33 said:
We mean that if it does not have any other substance than being in the Mosaic Law

Paul ADDS the direct quote of the Law of Moses - in Ex 20:12 after already making his own inspired statement in vs 1. That ADDITION shows not only that he views the source as authoritative but ALSO includes the group of TEN by saying "it is the FIRST COMMANDMENT with .." -- he is pulling in the entire unit OF TEN as if the readers not only know that the text is IN The LAW -- but they also know the exact order of commands in the TEN.

hint: Ex 20:12 is NOT the first command with a promise in the LAW OF MOSES. You find promises linked to commands in Genesis and Exodus BEFORE Ex 20:12.

This is a pretty tight spot for arguments that need to ignore that detail. Of course, you have free will and can skim past whatever you wish. I am just noting that it is a pretty tight spot for your argument to have to work with.

RandyPNW · Mar 28, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, but I am not sure @NBB actually did that. Which is why we should just not criticize each other on the issue of the Sabbath at all.

I really haven't thought through this, but I find it strange that Paul made allowance for "days" in the Law but argued vehemently against "circumcision." Any thought about this?

Clearly, we're not all going to see eye to eye on everything. But on matters of Salvation, Paul seemed to throw down the gauntlet.

On the Celebration of the Sabbath in Liturgical Churches

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

One person, not the God of the Universe Who said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Eo 20:10 to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa 58:13​

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

One person, not the God of the Universe Who said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Eo 20:10 to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa 58:13