House of Representatives pass bill requiring voters to prove citizenship in Federal elections

probinson said:

I don't even know how to respond to this "logic".

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No, I imagine you don't. If ID is required to vote, the time to determine the validity of that identity is at registration.

probinson said:

Also, still wondering how people are legally working without state-issued IDs...

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Gig workers, day laborers, agricultural laborers, retirees, unemployed dependents, workers at companies who don't care about the citizenship status of their employees, whether citizens or not. There are people in this country who don't even have birth certificates.
But it is amazing to see how Republicans are pushing us into a "Let me see your papers, please" culture, something they had for so many years opposed.

BCP1928 said:

No, I imagine you don't. If ID is required to vote, the time to determine the validity of that identity is at registration.

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Absolutely. I presented my birth certificate, SS card and a recent utility bill with my name and address on it to get my Real ID. My wife presented the same documentation but she also had to have a certified copy of our marriage record since her name changed. Now that we have those IDs, it's not necessary to present all of that documentation to prove our identity.

Who is suggesting otherwise?

BCP1928 said:

Gig workers, day laborers, agricultural laborers, retirees, unemployed dependents, workers at companies who don't care about the citizenship status of their employees, whether citizens or not.

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You stated that people would have to take time off work to get an ID. I pointed out that you can't legally work (at least in Pennsylvania) without a state-issued ID. So I'm asking you who, that is eligible to vote, would need to take time off work to go get an ID?

probinson said:

Absolutely. I presented my birth certificate, SS card and a recent utility bill with my name and address on it to get my Real ID. My wife presented the same documentation but she also had to have a certified copy of our marriage record since her name changed. Now that we have those IDs, it's not necessary to present all of that documentation to prove our identity.

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You don't have to present anything when you register to vote. You think that's "logicai" but I don't get it.

probinson said:

Who is suggesting otherwise?



You stated that people would have to take time off work to get an ID. I pointed out that you can't legally work (at least in Pennsylvania) without a state-issued ID. So I'm asking you who, that is eligible to vote, would need to take time off work to go get an ID?

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It depends on the ID. I have to say that the Right has backed off considerably on this (thanks to pressure from the progressives) and now allow a variety of ID's, even free ones. They are also allowing reasonable time before elections to impose ID requirements. On the whole, the Left has not been opposed to the idea of voter identification in principle, but the way voter ID laws have been implemented, especially early on, gives the impression that they are really about something else.


But think about it. I went to get Real ID From the DMV. I didn't have a copy of my birth certificate at the time, so I took my passport but was told in hostile terms that the State of X does not regard a valid US passport as an identifying document of any kind, certainly not one which establishes citizenship. So I had to send for a birth certificate--a little money, a little time. My wife had to do the same, only she had to get a marriage certificate, too--a little more money, a little more time, and so on and on. There are people in this country who don't even have birth certificates. Imagine what a hassle that must be, and since they are mostly elderly, they might have a hard time negotiating the process and affording the documents. And the program has been a screw up. The feds have had to delay the full implementation of the Real ID several times. What's it been now? Three years?

I

probinson said:

Why in the world would anyone resent having an ID? I mean, there are countless things in life that require you to show identification. Having an ID is a BENEFIT for people. Not a burden nor a nuisance.

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It costs money and time and documentation, which not every citizen has in abundance.

probinson said:

I'm also kind of wondering how these people are working in the first place. I had to get both of my kids state-issued IDs before they were permitted to work.

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Not relevant.

probinson said:

Also, still wondering how people are legally working without state-issued IDs...

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You think fake ID can't be bought? You think HR clerks can't be bought?

BCP1928 said:

But it is amazing to see how Republicans are pushing us into a "Let me see your papers, please" culture, something they had for so many years opposed.

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That's the elitist Republicans for you.

Vambram said:

Can you prove that this is happening?

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BCP1928 said:

But think about it. I went to get Real ID From the DMV. I didn't have a copy of my birth certificate at the time, so I took my passport but was told in hostile terms that the State of X does not regard a valid US passport as an identifying document of any kind, certainly not one which establishes citizenship. So I had to send for a birth certificate--a little money, a little time. My wife had to do the same, only she had to get a marriage certificate, too--a little more money, a little more time, and so on and on. There are people in this country who don't even have birth certificates. Imagine what a hassle that must be, and since they are mostly elderly, they might have a hard time negotiating the process and affording the documents. And the program has been a screw up. The feds have had to delay the full implementation of the Real ID several times. What's it been now? Three years?

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I've told this story before, but when I went to get my driver's license after moving to Pennsylvania, the elderly gentleman at the next counter was having difficulty getting an ID, despite having his original birth certificate. Apparently, New Jersey used to use a lot of very strange formats for its birth certificate documents, and his didn't match any of them.

I also encountered a similar issue when I tried to get my passport - I had my original birth certificate, but the clerk at the post office wouldn't accept it because it "looked wrong" and was on the "wrong size" paper. I had to order a replacement. And my great aunt didn't have a birth certificate because she had lost her copy, and the records office for the township where she was born burned down in the 1920s. Made it a real pain for my mom when she had to handle her estate after she passed away.

BCP1928 said:

But think about it. I went to get Real ID From the DMV. I didn't have a copy of my birth certificate at the time, so I took my passport but was told in hostile terms that the State of X does not regard a valid US passport as an identifying document of any kind, certainly not one which establishes citizenship. So I had to send for a birth certificate--a little money, a little time. My wife had to do the same, only she had to get a marriage certificate, too--a little more money, a little more time, and so on and on. There are people in this country who don't even have birth certificates. Imagine what a hassle that must be, and since they are mostly elderly, they might have a hard time negotiating the process and affording the documents.

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To get my passport, I had a copy of my birth certificate, but it didn't have my parents' names on it. So I had to get another one.

BCP1928 said:

And the program has been a screw up. The feds have had to delay the full implementation of the Real ID several times. What's it been now? Three years?

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Oh, it's been way more than 3 years. The original deadline was May 11, 2008. From Wikipedia:

The current deadline is May 7, 2025. I'll believe it when it happens.

NxNW said:

You think fake ID can't be bought? You think HR clerks can't be bought?

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The question was, how are people legally working without a state-issued ID? Is it legal to work with a fake ID?

RocksInMyHead said:

I also encountered a similar issue when I tried to get my passport - I had my original birth certificate, but the clerk at the post office wouldn't accept it because it "looked wrong" and was on the "wrong size" paper. I had to order a replacement. And my great aunt didn't have a birth certificate because she had lost her copy, and the records office for the township where she was born burned down in the 1920s. Made it a real pain for my mom when she had to handle her estate after she passed away.

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And of course, no matter how many times Obama provided his birth certificate, the GOP says it's fake.

NxNW said:

And of course, no matter how many times Obama provided his birth certificate, the GOP says it's fake.

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There was a very small contingent of people who believed that Obama's birth certificate was fake after he released it. It was the very definition of a fringe conspiracy theory and not at all representative of the GOP's views as a whole.

probinson said:

There was a very small contingent of people who believed that Obama's birth certificate was fake after he released it.

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By small contingent, you must mean 72% of the Republicans.

Poll: Persistent Partisan Divide Over ‘Birther’ Question

NxNW said:

By small contingent, you must mean 72% of the Republicans.

Poll: Persistent Partisan Divide Over ‘Birther’ Question

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I always refer to online SurveyMonkey polls when I want the highest quality data.

probinson said:

There was a very small contingent of people who believed that Obama's birth certificate was fake after he released it. It was the very definition of a fringe conspiracy theory and not at all representative of the GOP's views as a whole.

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Trump was the largest voice attacking Obama and it snowballed from there. The republicans bought it all, hook, line, sinker, battery and shark....

probinson said:

I always refer to online SurveyMonkey polls when I want the highest quality data.

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What's the correct figure? Do you really think the majority of Republicans accept Obama's birth certificate? They don't. Even with Trump admitting that he was lying, they don't.

NxNW said:

What's the correct figure? Do you really think the majority of Republicans accept Obama's birth certificate? They don't. Even with Trump admitting that he was lying, they don't.

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Well, if you and a random online poll say so, then I guess that settles it!

I don't think the majority of people even think about Obama's birth certificate. But I do remember that when the issue was originally raised and Obama released his birth certificate, it became pretty much a non-issue for just about everyone except Sheriff Joe in Arizona and the fringe media and group that hung on his every word promising they would release more evidence "soon" which never materialized.

As I said, there was a fringe group of people that did (and almost certainly still do) doubt the veracity of Obama's birth certificate.

probinson said:

The question was, how are people legally working without a state-issued ID? Is it legal to work with a fake ID?

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No, but as I pointed out, there are legitimate occupations which don't require one. And, of course, a fake ID can easily fool a busy poll worker on election day who is not trained to spot it.

probinson said:

Well, if you and a random online poll say so, then I guess that settles it!

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And yet you decline to provide a different figure.

probinson said:

I don't think the majority of people even think about Obama's birth certificate. But I do remember that when the issue was originally raised and Obama released his birth certificate, it became pretty much a non-issue for just about everyone except Sheriff Joe in Arizona and the fringe media and group that hung on his every word promising they would release more evidence "soon" which never materialized.

As I said, there was a fringe group of people that did (and almost certainly still do) doubt the veracity of Obama's birth certificate.

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Fringe being the vast majority of Republicans.

Similarly, Republicans still claim Trump won the election.

BCP1928 said:

No, but as appointed out, there are legitimate occupations which don't require one.

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What are they? I'm genuinely curious.

From the USCIS: