Texas Removes 1 Million Registered Voters

[Ana the Ist]

I'll try to put it as simply and clearly - although I know you understand what "enfranchise" means. Is it Joe Biden's job to oversee voter registration in Texas for the last 20 years?

Absolutely not. Biden's job (which he failed at) is both enforcing border law....and protecting the right of US citizens to vote, not corrupting it.

Are you saying that Abbott has utterly failed to properly oversee voter registration for the length of his governance?

No....I'm pointing out that he's doing his job. Do you imagine that some mechanism exists by which the governor can easily verify the citizenship of all citizens?

Immigration law is the jurisdiction of the federal government. If non-citizens are here at all illegally....that's entirely the fault of the federal government. I'd completely agree with you that it's the governor’s obligation to enforce state voting laws....but he doesn't write them.

Now, regarding voting measures that ensure voters are both who they claim they are and US citizens....we find the right engaging in the practice of ensuring that voters are US citizens (in fact, that's exactly what the governor is doing in the article in the OP). On the other hand, the left side of the aisle objects to any measures which might ensure that voters are in fact citizens.

And you're claiming that Abbot has somehow failed to do his job? See the OP....isn't that exactly the job you're accusing him of not doing?

The real irony here is we do have evidence of noncitizens voting. It's right in the OP....it exists. I know many conservatives often overstate the number of noncitizens registered to vote or actually voting....but it's hard to say by how much when states don't require evidence of citizenship to vote.

On the flip side, is the actual conspiracy theory....voter suppression. How many voters have been suppressed? How many suppressed votes do we have evidence for? The last time I recall the issue being taken to court was in Georgia, just a few years ago, when a Democratic Party candidate blamed voter suppression was the reason she lost....and she had failed to find even one voter unable to vote because of election laws. Obviously, she lost her case.

Wasn't Texas the state that the Republicans did a study to find out which id were minorities less likely than good ole boys to have and make those the required ones?

I don't know. You're going to have to point out the actual case. Was this something recent? Did it actually prevent anyone from voting....or is that all just theoretical?

 

[Ana the Ist]

But Texas has a history of "fixes" and then having the same problem occur, all over again. A great example was the 2021 Winter loss of power, when the power grid "froze," causing people to freeze because most of the population went days without power. Of course, this shouldn't have occurred as Texas had allegedly "fixed" this problem after a similar issue (though not as severe) in 2011. And even since 2021, they are still having power production issues, not being able to provide enough power to homes in Texas when there is high power demand.

I do recall the power outage. I think Cruz was heavily criticized by the left for taking his family on vacation at the time.....right?

I don't know enough about the actual problem with the electrical grid to say anything significant about it.

It's a bit beside the point though....I'd argue there's a rather large difference between a problem created by weather, and a problem created specifically by policy. CA adopted a wide set of justice reforms to....make things more "fair" for black people?

Changes like bail reform...not setting bail for nonviolent crimes like theft applies to every race to my knowledge....have only resulted in more robbery and break-ins. Places like San Francisco have hit the highest levels of property crime they've ever seen. Oakland is basically a crime hub now. I'll give credit to Portland for eventually changing their failed drug reform laws (they decriminalized small amounts of all drugs) because they eventually realized that they had created a disaster for their citizens....but that's a long long time despite it being obvious rather quickly it was a bad policy.

Oregon's drug decriminalization law rolled back as homelessness, overdoses on the rise

Leaders in Oregon, nonprofits and others are struggling to deal with a rise in drug use following the state decriminalizing hard drug use.

www.google.com

Only took them 4 years to realize it was a failed law. That's sort of the problem itself...politicians push these bad ideas at the behest of the voters, they're extremely stupid, and the politician is in the difficult position of saying "the voters passed a bad law that we should have repealed after 6 months" and still get reelected.

Again though....at least they aren't like many mayors and the governor of CA and trying to deny the policy failures or hide the problem altogether. I don't know if you saw the link....but they threatened Target with fines for reporting all the thefts. That's not the only tactic they've used either....

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/oakland-reporter-sues-alameda-county-sideshow-19552466.php

If you're not aware of what a sideshow is.....imagine a bunch of young adults gathering in public and breaking all sorts of laws. CA has decided to....I'm not joking....fine people and businesses for being "spectators" or the damage done to the businesses.

Again, they aren't going after criminals, just their victims and those trying to get the police to respond to these crimes. In a very short span...Democrats in San Francisco have gone from ensuring the right of citizens to record their police as they committed the rare crime....to attacking the rights of victims of these crimes and anyone who records or reports them....and for what?

To protect the criminals? I can fully understand that some people didn't understand that police and arrests actually do prevent these property crimes from getting out of control....but it seems like it should be pretty obvious these laws are destroying businesses and opportunities in the city for non-criminals.

There was also an issue with Texas voting machines, for over a decade, that they kept "fixing" but then having it crop up, all over again. Typically, if you tried to vote "straight ticket," there were times it wouldn't vote a straight ticket.

Again...you'd have to be more specific. I was reassured by those on the left that voting machines basically never failed or have any issues. You would imagine that these problems might cause voters to lose confidence in election results.

I'll also point out that the AG of Texas is not known for his integrity -- he's been under a federal indictment for fraud for the last decade but keeps getting the trial pushed back and should have been impeached last year.

Impeached on what?

This is one where I'll need to wait for more evidence.

What would be "more evidence"?

They still have about half a million voters to vet. There's no quick way to do this process when basically any attempt at voter ID laws are blocked by Democrats. They won't even put a citizenship question on a census. They support sanctuary cities thst simply won't turn over illegal immigrants to ICE even after they commit crimes.

You have one party trying to ensure citizens are the ones voting and there's no foreign influence on our elections...

Then you have a party that tries to hide and protect noncitizens from the law.

What sort of evidence are you waiting for?

Not to mention, even if these were all illegal voters they had zero effect on Democrats winning Presidential elections (and appear not to have hurt Republicans winning office in Texas) -- since all the Texas Electoral College votes have gone to the Republican candidate since 1980.

I wouldn't care if it were all white heavily catholic right wing noncitizens voting for the Republicans. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ensure that voters are citizens. I don't understand why this is even a partisan issue. You shouldn't be able to register to vote without any proof of citizenship.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/25/new-york-city-council-appeals-decision-to-strike-down-non-citizen-voting-law-00148854

NYC literally tried to allow noncitizens the right to vote in local elections. All they would need are the work authorizations that Democrats in Congress are trying to push out to every illegal waiting years on an asylum hearing.

The idea that elections are "secure" is a joke....and from a party that claimed to be concerned about foreign actors influencing elections. You know what would allow foreign actors to influence elections? Letting them into the nation on bogus asylum claims and giving them the ability to vote. Imagine how much time and money Putin will save when he realizes he can just send people here to vote for whatever candidates he chooses. Why even waste time and money on Facebook bots?

 

[SimplyMe]

I do recall the power outage. I think Cruz was heavily criticized by the left for taking his family on vacation at the time.....right?

I don't know enough about the actual problem with the electrical grid to say anything significant about it.

It's a bit beside the point though....I'd argue there's a rather large difference between a problem created by weather, and a problem created specifically by policy. CA adopted a wide set of justice reforms to....make things more "fair" for black people?

Texas regulates the electrical grid and overseas its management. When the grid fails due to weather in 2013, you want to make sure it doesn't happen again, right? Well, Texas voters were assured the issues were fixed -- only to have the exact same issues in 2021. That is a government failure; the government required power generators to upgrade their equipment and failed in any oversight or verification that the work was done. Personally, it doesn't seem much different to me; in both cases state government failed.

Changes like bail reform...not setting bail for nonviolent crimes like theft applies to every race to my knowledge....have only resulted in more robbery and break-ins. Places like San Francisco have hit the highest levels of property crime they've ever seen. Oakland is basically a crime hub now. I'll give credit to Portland for eventually changing their failed drug reform laws (they decriminalized small amounts of all drugs) because they eventually realized that they had created a disaster for their citizens....but that's a long long time despite it being obvious rather quickly it was a bad policy.

Oregon's drug decriminalization law rolled back as homelessness, overdoses on the rise

Leaders in Oregon, nonprofits and others are struggling to deal with a rise in drug use following the state decriminalizing hard drug use.

www.google.com

Only took them 4 years to realize it was a failed law. That's sort of the problem itself...politicians push these bad ideas at the behest of the voters, they're extremely stupid, and the politician is in the difficult position of saying "the voters passed a bad law that we should have repealed after 6 months" and still get reelected.

Again though....at least they aren't like many mayors and the governor of CA and trying to deny the policy failures or hide the problem altogether. I don't know if you saw the link....but they threatened Target with fines for reporting all the thefts. That's not the only tactic they've used either....

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/oakland-reporter-sues-alameda-county-sideshow-19552466.php

If you're not aware of what a sideshow is.....imagine a bunch of young adults gathering in public and breaking all sorts of laws. CA has decided to....I'm not joking....fine people and businesses for being "spectators" or the damage done to the businesses.

Again, they aren't going after criminals, just their victims and those trying to get the police to respond to these crimes. In a very short span...Democrats in San Francisco have gone from ensuring the right of citizens to record their police as they committed the rare crime....to attacking the rights of victims of these crimes and anyone who records or reports them....and for what?

To protect the criminals? I can fully understand that some people didn't understand that police and arrests actually do prevent these property crimes from getting out of control....but it seems like it should be pretty obvious these laws are destroying businesses and opportunities in the city for non-criminals.




Again...you'd have to be more specific. I was reassured by those on the left that voting machines basically never failed or have any issues. You would imagine that these problems might cause voters to lose confidence in election results.

That's the funny part, the voting machines technically didn't "fail." Part of it was programming errors by Texas election officials, where candidates weren't properly entered for the straight party ballots. The voter, if they were watching, they would see that a candidate was wrong on the summary screen. There are other possible ways it might error, such as hitting buttons too soon -- but Texas (as well as the voting machine company) claim that is user error and that the machines work properly.

These are "ancient" (in terms of technology) voting machines since they've been used since the turn of the Century (I believe they were first used in the Dallas area for the 2000 elections). It appears the company has also sued to stop their replacement with newer, rival, machines in some areas of Texas (it is an Austin based company).

But, again, Democrats first filed suit over these machines in 2007, they continued having issues with almost every election, and they are still used in some counties of Texas (though some counties have replaced them in the last several years). Per Republicans, there are no issues with these machines.

Impeached on what?

Fraud, largely on payments received from a donor. He was impeached by the Texas House and then narrowly avoided being removed from office by the Senate. There were multiple threads on these forums about it. He also has now settled his federal fraud lawsuit, agreeing to community service.

What would be "more evidence"?

They still have about half a million voters to vet. There's no quick way to do this process when basically any attempt at voter ID laws are blocked by Democrats. They won't even put a citizenship question on a census. They support sanctuary cities thst simply won't turn over illegal immigrants to ICE even after they commit crimes.

I'm sorry, nothing is blocked by Democrats in Texas -- they have been completely marginalized by the Republican majority in Texas. Texas is, for all practical purposes, a one party state.

You have one party trying to ensure citizens are the ones voting and there's no foreign influence on our elections...

Then you have a party that tries to hide and protect noncitizens from the law.

We do? Odd, I haven't see that. What I've seen is one party that wants to make it harder to vote -- particularly for poorer individuals -- and another party that is trying to protect the voting rights of the poor. It's odd how the party allegedly trying to ensure "citizens are the ones voting and there's no foreign influence" are the ones that keep being found guilty of wrongfully purging citizens from the voting rolls.

What sort of evidence are you waiting for?

Reports that show they haven't made a similar mistake as when they announced a similar purge about 5 years ago. Having said that, I should be one of the million voters removed from Texas voting rolls -- though in my case it would be because I moved from the state and am now registered to vote in a different state.

I wouldn't care if it were all white heavily catholic right wing noncitizens voting for the Republicans. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ensure that voters are citizens. I don't understand why this is even a partisan issue. You shouldn't be able to register to vote without any proof of citizenship.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/25/new-york-city-council-appeals-decision-to-strike-down-non-citizen-voting-law-00148854

NYC literally tried to allow noncitizens the right to vote in local elections. All they would need are the work authorizations that Democrats in Congress are trying to push out to every illegal waiting years on an asylum hearing.

I don't think either side has an issue about cleaning up voter rolls; we have laws that require the "purging" of voter rolls that were passed in a bi-partisan manner by the US Congress. What seems odd, though, is that we have Republican states (again, see a thread from the US Politics forum a year or two ago) about how some (typically MAGA) Republican states are removing themselves from a "national clearinghouse" where states inform each other of voters registering in their state after moving in to the state. It seems a bit odd for states allegedly concerned about election security, particularly when there is no alternative they are joining.

The issue, again, is how frequently clearing voting rolls has been used to "purge" the voters that don't vote the way the party controlling the state want them to.

The idea that elections are "secure" is a joke....and from a party that claimed to be concerned about foreign actors influencing elections. You know what would allow foreign actors to influence elections? Letting them into the nation on bogus asylum claims and giving them the ability to vote. Imagine how much time and money Putin will save when he realizes he can just send people here to vote for whatever candidates he chooses. Why even waste time and money on Facebook bots?

Or creating fake pro-Trump social media by using stolen pictures from European social media accounts; though I don't know those are foreign accounts, they could have been made by the Trump campaign. Honestly, you complain there is only one party involved in trying to fix it but then have issues if there are investigations caused by legitimate claims of ties between the Tump campaign and Russia, of Egypt paying Trump millions, or any other investigation into foreign influence campaigns that are alleged to be helping Republicans.

I'll agree both sides have issues. Then again, foreign influence does not have anything to do with elections being secure. There are cases of fraud and even illegal voting every election -- oddly, most of the proven cases in 2020 seemed aimed to help Trump, at least that I've seen. And I never heard anything nationally about the voting machine issues that have existed in Texas for over a decade, odd that Trump (or anyone else, including Texas AG Ken Paxton who tried to sue other states for how they ran their elections) ever pointed to those issues. To be honest, from what I've seen, the Texas issues with voting machines haven't been enough to sway elections (it is allegedly a very small number of votes) -- but it is far more than has been proven from the swing states where Trump people have claimed there were issues.

If you look at the issues honestly, it appears like a lot of grandstanding by Republicans, particularly when they keep ignoring the known issues in their states.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Texas regulates the electrical grid and overseas its management. When the grid fails due to weather in 2013, you want to make sure it doesn't happen again, right? Well, Texas voters were assured the issues were fixed -- only to have the exact same issues in 2021. That is a government failure; the government required power generators to upgrade their equipment and failed in any oversight or verification that the work was done.

I see...you're for government oversight...and verification.

I generally don't consider weather related events in my assessment of political figures. For example, I don't hold CAs' wildfires against Newsom. The reason being there's more than one possible explanation for why a wildfire is burning houses down....

1. It could be that residential builders were reckless in regards to where they built.
2. It could be that wildfire experts made poor recommendations.
3. It could be that whatever agency (BLM?) at the state or federal level simply lacks resources to follow recommendations fast enough.
4. It could be that everyone did exactly as they should....but unfortunately the weather event has unique characteristics that weren't prepared for.

It seems odd to me to blame damage from a weather event on a politician. Imagine if Puerto Rico simply blamed their top officials every time a strong hurricane caused damage. It seems silly to me but hey....you're certainly entitled to think that way.

That's the funny part, the voting machines technically didn't "fail." Part of it was programming errors by Texas election officials, where candidates weren't properly entered for the straight party ballots.

Ok....you're telling me that voting machines can be accidentally compromised by election officials.

Got it.

The voter, if they were watching, they would see that a candidate was wrong on the summary screen. There are other possible ways it might error, such as hitting buttons too soon -- but Texas (as well as the voting machine company) claim that is user error and that the machines work properly.

Right. Was this issue resolved either by voters or election officials?

These are "ancient" (in terms of technology) voting machines since they've been used since the turn of the Century (I believe they were first used in the Dallas area for the 2000 elections).

You'd be shocked at the process in other modern western democracies. There's more than one that still use IDs and paper ballots

It appears the company has also sued to stop their replacement with newer, rival, machines in some areas of Texas (it is an Austin based company).

I'm going to guess they had some sort of contract.

But, again, Democrats first filed suit over these machines in 2007, they continued having issues with almost every election, and they are still used in some counties of Texas (though some counties have replaced them in the last several years). Per Republicans, there are no issues with these machines.

Well which is it? Are they faulty or not?

I understand that each side has its narrative regarding the machines...and they differ...but I'm only concerned with the evidence.

Was or is there any evidence regarding the truth of claims of voting machines failing to function as voting machines?

Fraud, largely on payments received from a donor. He was impeached by the Texas House and then narrowly avoided being removed from office by the Senate. There were multiple threads on these forums about it. He also has now settled his federal fraud lawsuit, agreeing to community service.

I watched the court proceedings of one of the accusations. I honestly don't know what to think. I either missed something or this was largely about some renovations done to Paxton's house....and it was treated like the capture of some international drug kingpin. I know there was an acquittal...perhaps an appeal or new charges....a settlement as you said.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have no idea what Paxton has to do with the topic of the thread. Does his case involve voter fraud or something related to the elections?

I'm sorry, nothing is blocked by Democrats in Texas -- they have been completely marginalized by the Republican majority in Texas. Texas is, for all practical purposes, a one party state.

Let's be honest.

https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-texas-voting-voting-rights-7d9f2da74fb647b40214fa88ccdbcebb

This isn't just a Texas issue. Democrats...for some reason....don't want to ensure that only citizens are voting. The election law proposed by the Biden administration basically would have removed the power of some states to write their own election laws and not others. It basically just made it easier to commit voter fraud, and made it much harder to catch.

We do? Odd, I haven't see that. What I've seen is one party that wants to make it harder to vote

How so?

-- particularly for poorer individuals --

Let's imagine a homeless person that's a US citizen and has no ID or documents like a birth certificate, and cannot recall their SSN....

Do you think this person will have an easier time voting or harder time voting than an illegal who crossed the southern border without getting caught and is sharing a home in Alabama with 40 similar people?

and another party that is trying to protect the voting rights of the poor.

How?

It's odd how the party allegedly trying to ensure "citizens are the ones voting and there's no foreign influence" are the ones that keep being found guilty of wrongfully purging citizens from the voting rolls.

How many citizens have they "wrongly purged"?

Do you understand that federal law requires states to routinely remove ineligible voters from their rolls/registry?

Reports that show they haven't made a similar mistake as when they announced a similar purge about 5 years ago.

How many people were wrongly removed 5 years ago?

Serious question. I don't know. When I look for a number...I get stories like this...

GOP crackdowns on noncitizen voting ensnare newly naturalized Americans

Voting rights advocates are raising concerns about the effects of Republican-led measures designed to prevent noncitizens from voting, which is illegal and rare.

www.google.com

That make big claims about "voter suppression" and the rarity of illegal voting. I can fully understand why someone who isn't media literate or can't spot obvious bias in the news they are reading might become misinformed.

Again, cleaning up voter rolls is a required practice. The article (please read it) describes a woman who naturalized and then registered to vote after she became a citizen....only to be removed from the voter registry.

It doesn't exactly say why she was removed apart from the fact that she her "noncitizen immigration number" got her removed from the registry.

Surely she had already proven she was a citizen just to get on the registry....right?

Well no...apparently not.

Allen announced he had put 3,251 voter registrations on track for removal in mid-August as part of a new process that flags anyone on the state voter rolls with a noncitizen identification number. Allen shared the list with the attorney general for "further investigation and possible criminal prosecution," his office said in a release.

This seems to strongly suggest that not only do you not need to prove citizenship to register to vote in Alabama....but even more concerning, the only noncitizens they can identify on the voter registry are those that entered the US legally.

The article doesn't really address this though....instead, this dumb statement is made....

“Every single naturalized citizen in Alabama has an immigration number, every single one,” Lang said.


Ok....and????

By the way, the very next paragraph actually disproves whatever this expert was supposedly trying to prove.

According to the latest data available from the Department of Homeland Security, 3,998 people were naturalized in Alabama in 2022. The year before, 1,614 people became U.S. citizens in Alabama.

If 3251 people were being removed because they have noncitizen immigration numbers....and 3998 people had naturalized....clearly not every naturalized citizen has a number despite what the "expert" says.

The ultimate crux of this horrible dilemma for this poor woman who naturalized is that she would have to fill out the form again.

She not sure she wants to.

Is this supposed to be voter suppression????

Because in my quest for evidence....I stumbled across Alabama’s voter registration form. Let's take a peek, shall we?

Alabama requires a photo ID at the polls or with the application....but these aren't exactly hard to get. Not every state requires a SSN for a driver's license.

When you start actually looking at it....it's pretty bad how easy it is to get around not being a citizen.

You may see the above form and think that the photo ID will do the trick. There's no way around that. Then you look at the Alabama voting rules and...

In addition, a voter who does not have a valid photo ID in his or her possession at the polls shall be permitted to vote if the individual is positively identified by two election officials as a voter on the poll list who is eligible to vote and the election officials sign a sworn affidavit so stating.

So while an ID will be asked for....apparently it's not entirely necessary if you are on the voter registry and two officials swear you are who you claim to be lol. I'm not sure how that works... but I would guess they simply ask you to verify the information on the application.

We're basically using an honor system here. How would an official in Alabama figure out who is a noncitizen if you don't actually need a SSN or photo ID to be able to vote?....as long as you check the "yes I'm a citizen box" you should be good to go.

Having said that, I should be one of the million voters removed from Texas voting rolls -- though in my case it would be because I moved from the state and am now registered to vote in a different state.

? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here....

Or creating fake pro-Trump social media by using stolen pictures from European social media accounts; though I don't know those are foreign accounts, they could have been made by the Trump campaign. Honestly, you complain there is only one party involved in trying to fix it but then have issues if there are investigations caused by legitimate claims of ties between the Tump campaign and Russia, of Egypt paying Trump millions, or any other investigation into foreign influence campaigns that are alleged to be helping Republicans.

Yawn...am I supposed to think there's some "legitimate" investigation into Trump that hasn't been pursued?

I saw the Egypt story. It had zero evidence. It was just a story...quite literally. The unnamed "informant" was claiming that the FBI or whoever learned about some supposed bank withdrawal of 10 million $ months after it happened.

How? Did they pay an informant for this? Did the bank call up the FBI? WaPo certainly doesn't seem to know or care.

Seems rather necessary to even justify an investigation. After all, the informant used to keep the Trump/Russia probe going after it turned into nothing was a ex foreign spy hired by the Clinton campaign lawyers....and his "intel" was entirely bogus.

I'll agree both sides have issues. Then again, foreign influence does not have anything to do with elections being secure.

Well go back and rethink the question I had about the homeless US citizen with no ID or documents...and the illegal residing in Alabama. Apparently you can just check the box that says you're a US citizen and you're good. In the section asking for a driver's license and SSN....just check off the box that says you don't have any DL or SSN. Then when asked for your ID on your day to vote....simply tell them the information you used to register, promise extra hard you're a citizen, and it seems like you're good to vote.

 

[SimplyMe]

I see...you're for government oversight...and verification.

I generally don't consider weather related events in my assessment of political figures. For example, I don't hold CAs' wildfires against Newsom. The reason being there's more than one possible explanation for why a wildfire is burning houses down....

Tell me, if the power shut off in Minnesota every time it got below freezing, would you consider that a mark against the government ensuring their power grid was properly built and maintained, or would you just think it was weather? That is essentially what happened in Texas -- they got temperatures below freezing covering the entire state -- no strong winds, no hurricane, no other extreme weather. It was just somewhat colder than normal and the power plants and fuel lines to those plants "froze."

1. It could be that residential builders were reckless in regards to where they built.
2. It could be that wildfire experts made poor recommendations.
3. It could be that whatever agency (BLM?) at the state or federal level simply lacks resources to follow recommendations fast enough.
4. It could be that everyone did exactly as they should....but unfortunately the weather event has unique characteristics that weren't prepared for.

It seems odd to me to blame damage from a weather event on a politician. Imagine if Puerto Rico simply blamed their top officials every time a strong hurricane caused damage. It seems silly to me but hey....you're certainly entitled to think that way.

No, this would be more akin to power failing in Puerto Rico because the weather got down below 60 degrees. I intentionally didn't go after power losses in Texas because of a hurricane, even though the longest I ever went without power in Texas was after a hurricane. I could have even criticized Texas for the large number of failures just from major rain storms -- not something I recall ever having to deal with on a regular basis any other place I've lived (and I've lived in 6 different states, some others with major rain/thunderstorms). No, I only criticized the fact that their power grid was not winterized, at all, and couldn't survive freezing temperatures that remained above 0 degrees Fahrenheit (so not all that cold, compared to most states); after it had failed 10 years previously under similar conditions and the promised fixes were never made.

Ok....you're telling me that voting machines can be accidentally compromised by election officials.

Got it.

Again, 20 year old technology and I was going by memory, it appears I was wrong about how it occurred -- instead it is an issue with the way the machine operates (though it "works as designed" so they don't think it is an issue).

Right. Was this issue resolved either by voters or election officials?

Nope; again, it was first complained about in the first few years the machines went into widespread use and is still a concern for the counties that still are using the machines. There are even special "notices" for the Election officials to print out to hang by the machines, to warn voters to ensure they check their ballot, that the machine accurately recorded it.

You'd be shocked at the process in other modern western democracies. There's more than one that still use IDs and paper ballots



I'm going to guess they had some sort of contract.

A contract that lasted more than 20 years for a brand new form of technology (video screen voting machines were in their infancy in 2000)? Sounds like quite a sweetheart deal, if true.

Well which is it? Are they faulty or not?

Per Texas, no. Per most voting rights groups, yes. The argument is the machines are "reliable" -- they work the same way every time -- just that they aren't user friendly and people aren't good at ensuring their vote is cast correctly (which can be hard with the small print on the screen, particularly for the elderly or those who have poor eyesight).

I understand that each side has its narrative regarding the machines...and they differ...but I'm only concerned with the evidence.

Was or is there any evidence regarding the truth of claims of voting machines failing to function as voting machines?



I watched the court proceedings of one of the accusations. I honestly don't know what to think. I either missed something or this was largely about some renovations done to Paxton's house....and it was treated like the capture of some international drug kingpin. I know there was an acquittal...perhaps an appeal or new charges....a settlement as you said.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have no idea what Paxton has to do with the topic of the thread. Does his case involve voter fraud or something related to the elections?

You don't find the corruption of public officials important? As for relevance, Paxton is the one who oversees the pruning of the voter roles in Texas, part of his duties as AG.

Let's be honest.

https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-texas-voting-voting-rights-7d9f2da74fb647b40214fa88ccdbcebb

This isn't just a Texas issue. Democrats...for some reason....don't want to ensure that only citizens are voting. The election law proposed by the Biden administration basically would have removed the power of some states to write their own election laws and not others. It basically just made it easier to commit voter fraud, and made it much harder to catch.



How so?



Let's imagine a homeless person that's a US citizen and has no ID or documents like a birth certificate, and cannot recall their SSN....

Do you think this person will have an easier time voting or harder time voting than an illegal who crossed the southern border without getting caught and is sharing a home in Alabama with 40 similar people?



How?




How many citizens have they "wrongly purged"?

Do you understand that federal law requires states to routinely remove ineligible voters from their rolls/registry?



How many people were wrongly removed 5 years ago?

Serious question. I don't know. When I look for a number...I get stories like this...

GOP crackdowns on noncitizen voting ensnare newly naturalized Americans

Voting rights advocates are raising concerns about the effects of Republican-led measures designed to prevent noncitizens from voting, which is illegal and rare.

www.google.com

That make big claims about "voter suppression" and the rarity of illegal voting. I can fully understand why someone who isn't media literate or can't spot obvious bias in the news they are reading might become misinformed.

Again, cleaning up voter rolls is a required practice. The article (please read it) describes a woman who naturalized and then registered to vote after she became a citizen....only to be removed from the voter registry.

It doesn't exactly say why she was removed apart from the fact that she her "noncitizen immigration number" got her removed from the registry.

Surely she had already proven she was a citizen just to get on the registry....right?

Well no...apparently not.

Allen announced he had put 3,251 voter registrations on track for removal in mid-August as part of a new process that flags anyone on the state voter rolls with a noncitizen identification number. Allen shared the list with the attorney general for "further investigation and possible criminal prosecution," his office said in a release.

This seems to strongly suggest that not only do you not need to prove citizenship to register to vote in Alabama....but even more concerning, the only noncitizens they can identify on the voter registry are those that entered the US legally.

The article doesn't really address this though....instead, this dumb statement is made....

“Every single naturalized citizen in Alabama has an immigration number, every single one,” Lang said.


Ok....and????

By the way, the very next paragraph actually disproves whatever this expert was supposedly trying to prove.

According to the latest data available from the Department of Homeland Security, 3,998 people were naturalized in Alabama in 2022. The year before, 1,614 people became U.S. citizens in Alabama.

If 3251 people were being removed because they have noncitizen immigration numbers....and 3998 people had naturalized....clearly not every naturalized citizen has a number despite what the "expert" says.

The ultimate crux of this horrible dilemma for this poor woman who naturalized is that she would have to fill out the form again.

She not sure she wants to.

Is this supposed to be voter suppression????

Because in my quest for evidence....I stumbled across Alabama’s voter registration form. Let's take a peek, shall we?




View attachment 354014

Alabama requires a photo ID at the polls or with the application....but these aren't exactly hard to get. Not every state requires a SSN for a driver's license.

When you start actually looking at it....it's pretty bad how easy it is to get around not being a citizen.

You may see the above form and think that the photo ID will do the trick. There's no way around that. Then you look at the Alabama voting rules and...

In addition, a voter who does not have a valid photo ID in his or her possession at the polls shall be permitted to vote if the individual is positively identified by two election officials as a voter on the poll list who is eligible to vote and the election officials sign a sworn affidavit so stating.

So while an ID will be asked for....apparently it's not entirely necessary if you are on the voter registry and two officials swear you are who you claim to be lol. I'm not sure how that works... but I would guess they simply ask you to verify the information on the application.

We're basically using an honor system here. How would an official in Alabama figure out who is a noncitizen if you don't actually need a SSN or photo ID to be able to vote?....as long as you check the "yes I'm a citizen box" you should be good to go.





? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here....



Yawn...am I supposed to think there's some "legitimate" investigation into Trump that hasn't been pursued?

I saw the Egypt story. It had zero evidence. It was just a story...quite literally. The unnamed "informant" was claiming that the FBI or whoever learned about some supposed bank withdrawal of 10 million $ months after it happened.

How? Did they pay an informant for this? Did the bank call up the FBI? WaPo certainly doesn't seem to know or care.

Seems rather necessary to even justify an investigation. After all, the informant used to keep the Trump/Russia probe going after it turned into nothing was a ex foreign spy hired by the Clinton campaign lawyers....and his "intel" was entirely bogus.




Well go back and rethink the question I had about the homeless US citizen with no ID or documents...and the illegal residing in Alabama. Apparently you can just check the box that says you're a US citizen and you're good. In the section asking for a driver's license and SSN....just check off the box that says you don't have any DL or SSN. Then when asked for your ID on your day to vote....simply tell them the information you used to register, promise extra hard you're a citizen, and it seems like you're good to vote.

I'm not going to argue Alabama's voting law; particularly since part of their issue is that they allegedly (and courts have found them guilty of it multiple times) of trying to disenfranchise Black voters.

I'll also state that, from what I've seen, a majority in both parties support Voter ID laws. The issue Democrats traditionally have is how some Republicans have used it as a form of discrimination against the poor and/or Blacks. For example, prior to passing a 2013 voter ID law in North Carolina, the legislators proposing the law investigated what forms of ID that Blacks commonly used and ensured to restrict those from being used as ID for elections -- as the Appeals Court found that the law targeted "African-Americans with almost surgical precision."

It is even crazier when going between states. For example, I had a Real ID from Texas when I moved -- it proved I was a US Citizen. When I moved to my new state, they wouldn't accept the Real ID as evidence that I was a citizen, or even my military documentation. I had to provide all the same documentation again to prove I was a citizen, and figure out where the documentation was hidden (and actually apply for a new Social Security card, since I still haven't found my old one after the move). There is this issue that states frequently make it quite difficult to get ID, much harder than it needs to be. And, yes, that is just stupid and unnecessary, and seems intentionally done to inconvenience the "wrong people."

From what I saw of the Biden bill, it wasn't nearly as bad as what Republicans claimed. Instead, it tried to prevent some of the idiocy that I mention above -- making it hard to get IDs that you are required to have to vote. Could it have been better and did it have flaws, sure. Was there ever an attempt made? No, Republicans just complained and ensured the bill died. It is ironic that Republicans complained and argued that the making federal voting rules would be unconstitutional -- but that now the Republican House has been working on federal voting rules to be forced on the states.

I agree with the idea of Voter ID but, when we do it, we need to make sure IDs are easy and cheap to obtain -- something that many states seem to try to make difficult. I think the current voting machines I've seen are pretty good but that we need to require all states to upgrade to the new models of machines -- the ones that meet the requirement to print a paper copy of the ballot for the voter, which the voter then turns in after verifying his vote was recorded correctly. This makes it so if there is any question of the count, that an hand count of the ballots can be done to verify the machine count (as was done in Georgia).

I think Election Day should be a National Holiday, with voting locations in every neighborhood with minimal wait times -- so that there are few issues with people waiting hours in line or not being able to get to the polls easily because of their work schedule.

And I'm frustrated by several Republicans who are trying to undermine the faith in our elections by spreading various conspiracy theories (and if you want, we can include some Democrats, such as Stacey Adams), endless baseless lawsuits, and even attempting (and sometimes succeeding) in illegally copying the software and data from some election machines.

 

[Ana the Ist]

TH46k⁶utu__⁶I was ell me, if the power shut off in Minnesota every time it got below freezing, would you consider that a mark against the government ensuring their power grid was properly built and maintained, or would you just think it was weather?

An earthquake just messed up parts California's energy. I don't judge Newsom for not adequately preparing.

Look, it's fine if you judge governors based on their ability to react to severe weather events....that's fine. I don't....and we don't have to agree to discuss the issue.

Again, 20 year old technology and I was going by memory, it appears I was wrong about how it occurred -- instead it is an issue with the way the machine operates (though it "works as designed" so they don't think it is an issue).

That's great....glad it was resolved.

Nope; again, it was first complained about in the first few years the machines went into widespread use and is still a concern for the counties that still are using the machines.

Seems like the sort of thing that would undermine voter confidence in elections.

Per Texas, no. Per most voting rights groups, yes. The argument is the machines are "reliable" -- they work the same way every time -- just that they aren't user friendly and people aren't good at ensuring their vote is cast correctly (which can be hard with the small print on the screen, particularly for the elderly or those who have poor eyesight).

Seems like a typical waste of taxpayer money.

You don't find the corruption of public officials important?

Of course I do...it's not the topic of the thread though.

This is about the rather dismal lack of verification of citizenship in our elections.

I'm not going to argue Alabama's voting law; particularly since part of their issue is that they allegedly (and courts have found them guilty of it multiple times) of trying to disenfranchise Black voters.

Ok...is that what you're suggesting here? That the removal of people from the voter registry due to them having noncitizen immigration numbers has something to do with black people?

I'll also state that, from what I've seen, a majority in both parties support Voter ID laws. The issue Democrats traditionally have is how some Republicans have used it as a form of discrimination against the poor and/or Blacks.

Alabama has a program for poor citizens who can't afford an ID to acquire one for free.

I don't see how IDs could possibly be the issue here.

For example, prior to passing a 2013 voter ID law in North Carolina, the legislators proposing the law investigated what forms of ID that Blacks commonly used and ensured to restrict those from being used as ID for elections -- as the Appeals Court found that the law targeted "African-Americans with almost surgical precision."

Citation?

It is even crazier when going between states. For example, I had a Real ID from Texas when I moved -- it proved I was a US Citizen. When I moved to my new state, they wouldn't accept the Real ID as evidence that I was a citizen, or even my military documentation.

I agree that it would be ideal if we could have a nationally recognized ID that was only available to citizens and cleared someone to vote in federal elections in any state.

However, folks like yourself seem to reject the idea when proposed by Republicans and the creation of such an ID isn't something that the Democrats seem to want or ever propose. In fact, they seem opposed to it.

And, yes, that is just stupid and unnecessary, and seems intentionally done to inconvenience the "wrong people."

I'm sorry....

All this time I imagined you as a white person (probably because of your little profile avatar) and you were making these judgments about non-white people and their ability to acquire IDs from the perspective of a white person.

It never occurred to me that you're part of the group you put in quotes....the "wrong people" as you put it....and therefore you saw your own difficulties in getting an ID as representing some unique sort of challenge.

Is that the situation? Are you part of the "wrong people" group?

To me, the whole argument is pretty stupid. If I were to point out, for example, that Democratic voters are more likely than Republicans to have a state university student ID....I don't think that's a reason to remove it as a valid voter ID in the state of Alabama. Sure, it may benefit one group more than another at the moment, but there's multiple types of IDs available to use as a voter ID. Perhaps that NC judge would disagree....but I still think it's a bad argument.

Of course, maybe there's some element of the case I'm not seeing. You didn't cite it so...maybe you left something out.

From what I saw of the Biden bill, it wasn't nearly as bad as what Republicans claimed.

It didn't appear to actually do anything that would ensure only citizens were voting.

Could it have been better and did it have flaws, sure. Was there ever an attempt made? No, Republicans just complained and ensured the bill died. It is ironic that Republicans complained and argued that the making federal voting rules would be unconstitutional -- but that now the Republican House has been working on federal voting rules to be forced on the states.

What sort of rules?

Ensuring everyone voting is in fact a citizen and not merely taking everyone's word for it?

I agree with the idea of Voter ID but, when we do it, we need to make sure IDs are easy and cheap to obtain -- something that many states seem to try to make difficult.

Can you give an example of a state that does this?

.

I think the current voting machines I've seen are pretty good but that we need to require all states to upgrade to the new models of machines -- the ones that meet the requirement to print a paper copy of the ballot for the voter, which the voter then turns in after verifying his vote was recorded correctly.

I think Election Day should be a National Holiday, with voting locations in every neighborhood with minimal wait times -- so that there are few issues with people waiting hours in line or not being able to get to the polls easily because of their work schedule.

I wouldn't disagree on the idea of a holiday.

And I'm frustrated by several Republicans who are trying to undermine the faith in our elections by spreading various conspiracy theories

Well it wasn't just Adams. I've often said that the conspiracy theories on the right are crafted in dark corners of the internet and believed by few. The conspiracy theories of the left are on the front page of mainstream media....and believed by many.

Take the idea that black people are unable to acquire IDs....seems not only a conspiracy theory that isn't true....but also, insanely racist. There may be some 40yo study that shows a group of poor black people in some region of some state had difficulty in acquiring a specific ID due to the lack of a local DMV...but there's really no reason to imagine that is still the case. Yet, I've no doubt many on the left simply believe it to be true....without evidence....because that's the nature of propaganda. If the people around you simply repeat it enough...people are simply inclined to believe it without a shred of evidence.

Take the same example, Alabama state university student IDs are valid voter IDs....and yet, I wouldn't be surprised to find out if one race was more likely to have these IDs than another race. Does that inherently make their inclusion on the list valid voter IDs somehow racist? I doubt you'll ever hear a Democrat argue against them....

I still remember the first left wing conspiracy I recognized. The idea of the "back-alley abortion". It's gone out of style ever since the abortion pill was invented buy as recently as the 90s and early 2000s....people on the left would decry the outlawing of abortion by invoking what they believed would happen if it were outlawed....back alley abortions lol. A very shifty, dirty, and obviously sinister bunch would begin providing these illegal procedures in some imaginary tent in some unknown alley somewhere lol. It's clear that the idea of such a thing was simply invented to make what is an unpleasant procedure seem even worse if we were to outlaw it. When it's difficult to make a moral argument for what the political left wants....it creates these imaginary scenarios that are worse....and therefore justify their position politically. The supposed trans-youth suicide epidemic is another such conspiracy....it doesn't exist. I'm not suggesting that no young sexually confused people commit suicide....I'm sure some do at any age. The idea that some sort of large scale....or even small scale crisis exists and justifies a wide ranging paradigm shift in everyday speech, in education, in medical intervention to stop puberty, and most of all...the need to protect this group from their parents is a very strange and complex sort of conspiracy theory. It's been repeated enough that many on the left simply assume the facts underlying it must exist somewhere.....but in reality, we don't even track any number for "trans youth suicide" and any discussion about the topic with activists reveals it to be disingenuous.

I'd suggest that you may not be able to convince everyone who believes that millions of illegals are voting that isn't the case and it's just a conspiracy theory.....but if you support measures that prevent it from happening (because illegals shouldn't even be able to register to vote....and they clearly can)....then at least you'd have something to point to as evidence other than a checked box and a reassurance.

 

[Pommer]

An earthquake just messed up parts California's energy. I don't judge Newsom for not adequately preparing.

Look, it's fine if you judge governors based on their ability to react to severe weather events....that's fine. I don't....and we don't have to agree to discuss the issue.

The tongue-in-cheek ratio is impressive.

 

[loveofourlord]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/4849711-texas-voter-roll-purge-million/amp/

Well who did they remove you might ask...

Dead people.
People who moved.
Convicted criminals.
7000 non US citizens.

The idea that 7000 noncitizens were able to register in the first place is pretty wild.

How did that happen? Is it like AZ where you don't have to prove citizenship to vote?

The nerve of Democrats suggest there's no evidence of noncitizens voting. We have evidence 7000 minimum intended to in Texas.

At this point January 6th is looking more like their fault. I understand there's no evidence of fraud (or not much) but that's because they don't require evidence to vote. Can't find a crime that can be pulled off without evidence.

well easy, in previous years and times thats happened ACTUAL voters were removed and a case of mistaken idendity, it's also against the law to remove voters 90 days before and election because it's nearly imposible for all the real voters acidently and 'accidently' removed to be added back. Good way to rig the election by making it impossible for real voters to get back on the list.