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Faith is Not Works, But Its Not called Libertarian Free-Will Either

Paleouss

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Accepting the work of grace is not an active choice as much as it is the lack of rejection.
I like this. The situation appears to require words such as submit (Jam 4:7) or resist (Acts 7:51, Rom 13:2, 2tim 3:8) and accept (Num 14:11) or reject (Mark 7:9, Acts 13:46 1Thes 4:8). More than words like choice or choose.
However, we actively affirm the work of grace by the declaration of faith
I agree, faith (or coming before God empty) affirms the work of grace already taking place.
 
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Paleouss

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I agree that the sentence,"Faith, then, brings a man empty to God" indicates that man brings some faith along with humility and helplessness.
Sounds like this is what John Calvin is saying. Heavy on the humility though. :)
So the faith is in that hope that God wills to save him
As Hebrews 11:1, "faith is the substance of things hoped for". In this case, your 'hope' is for "God's will to save him".
 
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Paleouss

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I hear more about John Calvin from those who wish to defeat Calvinism than from my own studies! :laughing:
Hi Mark, I've been away for a bit. Just getting back to a normal day.

I assume you refer to me. To be transparent, I think John Calvin was a Godly man used by God. I don't think he got it all right, but then again I don't think anyone does. That is why we should always be looking toward God for His truth. I think within Calvinism there is a spectrum, as the articles of faith allow such. Within this spectrum... yes, I think John Calvin would contradict some within that spectrum. But by no means does he contradict Calvinism as a whole. For he is Calvinism, at least at its most basic roots.

I would recommend everyone read John Calvin. Those that think they don't like Calvin and especially those who think they do like Calvin but have never really read any of his writings.

Peace be with you my brother
 
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bling

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Not even tomorrow. Nobody is without sin, in some sense. Total depravity has to do with what is at the core, and in the believer, what is in the "old man", is still at the core. It is not only the individual conscious disobediences that are sin, but the rebellion still at work in us, and the ungodliness that we are not even aware of still within us, even in our very mindset.

All day long we declare independence against God. And he is patient enough to put up with it, working to make us what we will be when we see him as he is.
Does a true Disciple have Deity living within them? Can Deity participate in sinning with you?
The "Old Self" should have been put to death?
Are we to be slaves to righteousness?
 
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bling

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We are given a measure of faith from God as a gift
In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I have no doubts about God's gifts of grace and faith, but I question if free will allows us to reject those gifts. Not rejecting God's gifts is not a merit or work. God gives us the gift of life, and people often reject it. Can one not reject the gifts of grace and faith?
People use Eph 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” to show “faith” is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: “not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be “faith”, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If “faith” were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The “gift” in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.



I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:



And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.





Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:
9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8, ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)


Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:
(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8, kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)


Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:
(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)




"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).



You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.



I do agree “natural faith” which all mature adults have is a gift from God and, as we know from scripture: people do place natural faith in lots of things and people even worshipping rocks and wood.



The question that needs to be asked: can this God given natural faith be directed toward the Creator, just to believe in the possibility of God’s existence? Since it takes more faith and really foolishness to believe a god does not exist.



You also need to remember the Greek word translated “Faith” in the English is also translated faithfulness. I would say one of the gifts of the Spirit is faithfulness and not faith itself.





You also seem to be assuming that if the nonbelieving sinner has just some kind of “faith”, he will make the noble, honorable, worthy, righteous and holy choice to follow God, but that type of “faith” comes much later and is part of the unbelievable wonderful gifts God showers on the sinner.



The “faith/trust”, autonomous free will choice the sinner makes is between: being macho, hanging in there, being a good soldier, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimping out, giving up and surrendering to your enemy. Like any soldier who surrenders to his enemy, you hate your enemy, but are just willing to humbly accept undeserving charity from your enemy. That little questionable “trust” in the possibility of your enemy having an unbelievable Love that could help you is all the faith you need.
 
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Paleouss

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My position is that the definition of faith is the word "faith." So faith literally means faith. It does not mean works.
Greetings BibleBeliever, I hope you had a blessed weekend.

I'll start with your conclusion first, since we agree. :) I agree that faith is not works.

However, your premise seems to be circular, that is, defining the word 'faith' with the word 'faith' is circular.

1. What is faith?
2. Faith is faith
3. then what is faith?
4. Faith is faith
5. then what is faith?

In my example, I suggested that since faith might be considered 'empty' (John Calvin) then faith cannot be works since works constitutes 'boasting' and 'merit'.

1. Faith is 'empty' of boasting and merit
2. Works necessitates boasting and merit
C. Therefore faith is not works
No it absolutely involves choosing.
Do you think that it is more correct to say that there is choosing or more correct to say the situation appears to require words such as submit (Jam 4:7) or resist (Acts 7:51, Rom 13:2, 2tim 3:8) and accept (Num 14:11) or reject (Mark 7:9, Acts 13:46 1Thes 4:8)?

These may seem like minor distinctions. However, as descriptors of what is really going on, 'accept' and 'reject' appear to me to be more accurate. Especially if faith 'looks like' coming before God 'empty'.

How about you?


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure
 
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Mark Quayle

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Does a true Disciple have Deity living within them? Can Deity participate in sinning with you?
The "Old Self" should have been put to death?
Are we to be slaves to righteousness?
I'm thinking we've been through this before. Do you claim to be without sin?
 
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