Faith is Not Works, But Its Not called Libertarian Free-Will Either

[bling]

Spiritual Service

can we do everything good as a spiritual service to God?

 

[Clare73]

Thank you for your last post. I decided to focus on your quote above. Just saying I'm not trying to ignore your other comments.
I also think John Calvin is correct on his commentary of Eph 2:8-9. Although, I understand that there are even some Calvinists that disagree with Calvin's analysis of Eph 2:8-9.

I wanted to focus on the formulation of...
(1) Salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8-9)
(2) Salvation comes by grace, blood, and faith
(3) Therefore grace, blood, and faith is a gift.

1) Salvation is a gift of grace (Eph 2:8-9).
2) Salvation by the gift of grace comes to me by the gift of faith in the blood (Ro 3:25); i.e., atonement accomplished by Christ through his blood.
(3) Faith is a gift (2 Pe 1:1), by which I receive the gift/grace of salvation.

Regarding Eph 2:8-9, Calvin says about Paul,
Calvin says that Eph 2:8-9 starts out saying 'salvation' was entirely the gracious work of God. However, Calvin then writes... "But then...". This sounds like a turn of thought by Calvin. Calvin appears to say, Paul is saying, salvation is a gift of God, "but then" (the turn of thought) he suggests, there is man's part.
Now, I think that it is clear that Calvin would never suggest that any part of salvation included the merit or works of the sinner. For there can be no boasting by man in his salvation. However, it does seem to be the case that John Calvin thinks that man has a part. At least according to his reading of Paul. For he goes on to right...
Calvin clearly is saying there are two sides of this salvation conversation within Eph 2:8-9. Those two "sides" are "God" and "man". One might instantly think, what? Man can play no part, for salvation is a gift and not a work. If man plays any part, someone might say, then it is not all from God. Therefore, one might claim that saying man plays a part would immediately suggest that faith is works based salvation.

I don't think we have to provide support on the notion that Calvin thinks salvation is a gift from God. But in regard a statement like, "God gives salvation faith" , I think this can be misleading to many, imo. Especially for those that don't have a grasp on traditional theology. To the casual person, this seems to imply that man has no part. Something Calvin, here in Eph 2:8-9, seems to disagree with, that is that man plays no part.

Okay, I am not a student of Calvin and am in no position to defend his theology.

God works faith in the person, it is not something from the outside which one can either receive or reject.
Man has a part in that he is simply the locus of the gift of faith (2 Pe 1:1, Php 1:29) which saves.
Just as the ark had a part in that it was the locus of the gift of escape which saved.

Calvin writes, above, that "if we bring" (man's part) "nothing but faith" it then follows that "salvation does not come from us". Now wait a minute, one might say, if 'we' bring faith (man having a part) then how is salvation not a works based theology? It would seem that one might claim, how can it be all God if man has any part to "bring" anything?
But Calvin goes on to explain that if we look at man and he brings only faith then that is not works based theology. Therefore there is no merit or boasting.
Now here is where it ties into my OP. What exactly is faith, if it brings one "empty to God"?

Where does this "empty to God" come from?
God works saving faith in the born again (2 Pe 1:1, Php 1:29), which faith saves (Eph 2:8-9).

Providing an answer, "Faith is a gift from God", would seem to miss the mark when looking at man (as Calvin does in Eph 2:8-9). Although one can unpack this statement "faith is a gift from God" to mean that salvation includes no meritorious works or boasting from the sinner, yet, it is a gift from God and the sinner is still free to choose that which he desires and brings only faith. Which most certainly is true.

Actually, that is not how it works.
Faith is an operation of God in the disposition, as love and obedience are in the disposition.
The believer doesn't "bring" faith, believer is what he is, by the gift of God, as unbeliever is what he was.

But the casual person doesn't know to unpack it this way. So, what is this faith thing, that man brings that makes him "empty"?

I'm not liking this "empty" business. Where does that come from? Sounds like a cult.
Believers--the ones who receive salvation--are not "empty."
They are "filled" with the gift of faith (2 Pe 1:1, Php 1:29).

I can see why you are asking the question. . .for the notion is nonsense.

So when I am witnessing and someone says to me, "what is this faith"? Do we just say, "it is a gift from God"?
Or do we, as Calvin does, say "On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man"?

No. . .we say, "This faith is a disposition of the heart which believes, receives and embraces Christ and his atonement for the remission of one's sin and right standing (justification) with God."

So faith is coming before God, "empty".

Actually, it is coming before God filled with faith and trust in Christ and his atonement for one's sin.

And what approach to God does this faith look like?

It looks like a believing heart to which God responds with remission of his sin, which is salvation from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the Judgment.

 

[Mark Quayle]

can we do everything good as a spiritual service to God?

No. Whether as a spiritual service or otherwise, we can not do everything good.

 

[Paleouss]

I'm not liking this "empty" business. Where does that come from? Sounds like a cult.

Clare, thank you for your words of wisdom. I appreciate your time.

The concept of "empty" is John Calvin's evaluation and commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. In my underline below (I provided his commentary below), Calvin writes, "if we bring nothing but faith" (Calvin). So Calvin says, "we", as in the sinner, "brings nothing but faith". So according to Calvin, we bring faith. He later explains that the reason that saying "we" bringing faith is not suggesting there is merit or boasting is because faith, according to John Calvin, is "empty". His exact words are these, "Faith, then, brings a man empty to God" (Calvin, commentary below).

So my use of the term "empty" is from John Calvin. I then, in my last post to you and my OP attempt to inquire into this "empty" that faith brings, according to Calvin.

Many blessings to you my brother

John Calvin's Commentary Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.


Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation. – John Calvin

 

[Paleouss]

You would need to post the actual commentary for me to respond.

Oops.

"And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God." -- John Calvin Commentaries, Eph 2:8-9

May God to a fruitful work through you
Peace to you my brother

 

[bling]

No. Whether as a spiritual service or otherwise, we can not do everything good.

I am not talking about being perfect from birth, but just tomorrow?

 

[Jerry N.]

This is a very interesting discussion, but I think it is not going back far enough in the process of salvation. One must first believe that there is a God, and then one must fear Him. Some people fear God and then claim He does not exist. Some people fear God and wonder what they can do to mitigate His wrath. This is probably still in the realm of man’s free will. Then the free gift of grace starts its work, and man still has the free will to reject it. Accepting the work of grace is not an active choice as much as it is the lack of rejection. However, we actively affirm the work of grace by the declaration of faith

 

[Clare73]

Clare, thank you for your words of wisdom. I appreciate your time.

The concept of "empty" is John Calvin's evaluation and commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. In my underline below (I provided his commentary below), Calvin writes, "if we bring nothing but faith" (Calvin). So Calvin says, "we", as in the sinner, "brings nothing but faith". So according to Calvin, we bring faith. He later explains that the reason that saying "we" bringing faith is not suggesting there is merit or boasting is because faith, according to John Calvin, is "empty". His exact words are these, "Faith, then, brings a man empty to God" (Calvin, commentary below).

So my use of the term "empty" is from John Calvin. I then, in my last post to you and my OP attempt to inquire into this "empty" that faith brings, according to Calvin.

Many blessings to you my brother

Thanks. . .interesting.

 

[Clare73]

This is a very interesting discussion, but I think it is not going back far enough in the process of salvation. One must first believe that there is a God, and then one must fear Him. Some people fear God and then claim He does not exist. Some people fear God and wonder what they can do to mitigate His wrath. This is probably still in the realm of man’s free will. Then the free gift of grace starts its work, and man still has the free will to reject it. Accepting the work of grace is not an active choice as much as it is the lack of rejection. However, we actively affirm the work of grace by the declaration of faith

And this is not going deep enough in the work of grace.

As man cannot change his taste buds which cause him to prefer chocolate,
so man cannot change God's inner work (grace ) in his disposition which causes him to prefer belief.

 

[Jerry N.]

I agree that the sentence,"Faith, then, brings a man empty to God" indicates that man brings some faith along with humility and helplessness. However, that faith is a cry for help in a hopeless situation except for the mercy and grace of God. So the faith is in that hope that God wills to save him. It in no way reduces faith as a free gift. Hope and faith overlap.

 

[Clare73]

I agree that the sentence,"Faith, then, brings a man empty to God" indicates that man brings some faith along with humility and helplessness. However, that faith is a cry for help in a hopeless situation except for the mercy and grace of God. So the faith is in that hope that God wills to save him. It in no way reduces faith as a free gift. Hope and faith overlap.

Nowhere in the NT is faith presented in that manner.

That is a gloss of man.

 

[Jerry N.]

I'm just making a guess at what Calvin may have meant, while assuming that Calvin was trying to communicate something about human choice. I haven't read Calvin for many years, but his actions indicated that people made some choices in the path to salvation, which included rejection. If Jonah had not prayed in the belly of the fish, would he have died?

 

[Clare73]

I'm just making a guess at what Calvin may have meant, while assuming that Calvin was trying to communicate something about human choice. I haven't read Calvin for many years, but his actions indicated that people made some choices in the path to salvation, which included rejection. If Jonah had not prayed in the belly of the fish, would he have died?

Are you sure about that?

That would not be consistent with Jn 3:3-8--2 Pe 1:1, Php 1:29--Eph 2:8-9.

 

[eleos1954]

Oops.



May God to a fruitful work through you
Peace to you my brother

ok ... well then I do not beleive this .... faith

Oops.



May God to a fruitful work through you
Peace to you my brother

faith is indeed a gift from God ... so the way this reads I'm not in agreement with it.

We are given a measure of faith from God as a gift

In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

 

[Jerry N.]

We are given a measure of faith from God as a gift
In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

I have no doubts about God's gifts of grace and faith, but I question if free will allows us to reject those gifts. Not rejecting God's gifts is not a merit or work. God gives us the gift of life, and people often reject it. Can one not reject the gifts of grace and faith?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

However, the emphasis within the salvation process does not put all its focus on any words such as “choosing” but on "faith", "belief", and "repentance".

No it absolutely involves choosing. The Bible said "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

My position is that the definition of faith is the word "faith." So faith literally means faith. It does not mean works.

 

[Jerry N.]

I may be mistaken, but it seems that we are rehashing the Calvinist–Arminian debate of the 17th century. This might be very useful in refining definitions and ideas. However, since many great theologians have already expressed their ideas much better than I can ever hope to do, I’m not sure I could add anything of value. Aquinas tried to reconcile Ephesians 2:8, James 2:20, and James 2:24. This is puzzling to me on an intellectual level, but it seems obvious on the practical level when living out our relationship with Christ.

 

[Jerry N.]

How do you do Bible references in blue that link to the verse?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Clare, thank you for your words of wisdom. I appreciate your time.

The concept of "empty" is John Calvin's evaluation and commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. In my underline below (I provided his commentary below), Calvin writes, "if we bring nothing but faith" (Calvin). So Calvin says, "we", as in the sinner, "brings nothing but faith". So according to Calvin, we bring faith. He later explains that the reason that saying "we" bringing faith is not suggesting there is merit or boasting is because faith, according to John Calvin, is "empty". His exact words are these, "Faith, then, brings a man empty to God" (Calvin, commentary below).

So my use of the term "empty" is from John Calvin. I then, in my last post to you and my OP attempt to inquire into this "empty" that faith brings, according to Calvin.

Many blessings to you my brother

I hear more about John Calvin from those who wish to defeat Calvinism than from my own studies!

I'm not sure of the context in which Calvin says this, and so what he means by "bring faith", but if he means it like it is presented to mean here, I disagree with him. It is not in the purview of fallen man to produce salvific faith, no matter how "involved" ("enroiled" is my homemade word here, that seems more descriptive, (like happens to a surfer trying to get to the far side of a wave that breaks too soon), in the activity happening to him. Truly, it is happening in him, but that does not indicate whether he is aware of it or not, nor even the degree of faith that he possesses as a result, but that the faith is wholly valid is only a result of the fact that it is generated by the Spirit of God, and not generated by the weak, foolish, ignorant, capricious and self-centered man. But yes, since it is done in him by the Spirit of God, it is indeed his faith.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am not talking about being perfect from birth, but just tomorrow?

Not even tomorrow. Nobody is without sin, in some sense. Total depravity has to do with what is at the core, and in the believer, what is in the "old man", is still at the core. It is not only the individual conscious disobediences that are sin, but the rebellion still at work in us, and the ungodliness that we are not even aware of still within us, even in our very mindset.

All day long we declare independence against God. And he is patient enough to put up with it, working to make us what we will be when we see him as he is.